Turkey will stop teaching evolution in schools

[Thorthoth]

vego-llamosagna's modus operandi.

1. Say or do something droolingly stupid.
2. Desperately deflect/deny previous statement.
3. Repeat Steps. 1. & 2. incessantly.
.

[Dukasaur]

Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Congratulations to countries with elective representation: the only countries capable of mobilizing an army in times of war!

Not even close to what I said. Naturally, the dictatorships mobilize sooner and have the initial advantage. My point was that even though the democracies were caught off guard and took a beating in the early days, they pulled themselves together quickly enough to make a comeback.

]

You guys can laugh. These criticisms are always levied at democracies. Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Are you joking, 1939?
If it weren't for the Soviets in WW2 I'm 100% sure we would have communicated in German now

The Soviets did their part, that's for sure. Still, without the democracies the Soviets would have fallen.

The original target date for Operation Barbarossa was May 1st. If the invasion had started on time, the Germans would have reached Moscow before winter. The Red Army of 1941 was a mess and lost every encounter. Russia would have fallen. It was the desperate and unexpected resistance that the Germans encountered in Greece that kept much of the German Army bogged down in Greece and forced the postponement of Barbarossa until June 22nd. Almost every military historian, even the Russians, agrees that the six week delay in starting the invasion was what cost Hitler his initial gambit.

From 1942 on Russia was more and more powerful, but that first year they would not have survived if the Greeks and British hadn't bought time for them. Even after that, it's still possible that the Germans could have conquered Russia, but they were bogged down on many fronts. British and American command of the sea lanes prevented them from importing strategic materials. Meanwhile huge quantities of strategic materials were shipped from both America and Canada to the Russians.

British command of North Africa and eventually the Mediterranean prevented the Germans from getting to Middle Eastern oil. American dominance in the Pacific allowed Russia to ignore the Japanese and keep only token forces in the Far East. British and American bombing of Germany was a massive drag on German industry, economics, and morale.

So yeah, the Russians did their part, and as the war went on they became increasingly powerful, but without the help of the Allies they could not have won. The Allies, meanwhile, could have eventually won without the Russians. It would have taken a hell of a lot longer, but with the German Navy and Air Force being vastly inferior to their Allied counterparts, the British and Americans could have taken their sweet time building up until the time was right.

[mrswdk]

Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Congratulations to countries with elective representation: the only countries capable of mobilizing an army in times of war!

Not even close to what I said. Naturally, the dictatorships mobilize sooner and have the initial advantage. My point was that even though the democracies were caught off guard and took a beating in the early days, they pulled themselves together quickly enough to make a comeback.

The only reason the UK wasn't conquered just the same as France, Belgium and everywhere else is because it's an island. That meant the UK was able to just hang tight and watching the Nazis kamikaze into the USSR while it waited a few years for the US to come help.

In any case, I don't understand what you think 'democracy' has to do with the US and USSR beating the Nazis in Europe.

[Thorthoth]

Besides Duk was advocating arbitrary judicial discretion overruling laws made by democratically-elected officials in another thread.

[DoomYoshi]

The tyrant from Bosporus, Symmetrys friend, is going one step further at his blunting of the Turkish people.

Turkish schoolchildren will no longer be taught about evolution, a government official has said, in another sign of the conservative direction the country is heading in under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Alpaslan Durmus, the head of curriculum for the ministry of education, said that Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution was “controversial” and would be removed from school programmes by 2019.

Turkey will stop teaching evolution in schools, education ministry says

Turkey in EU... not in this lifetime.

We believe that these subjects are beyond their [students] comprehension

To be fair, 99% on both sides of the "debate" don't understand it.

[Dukasaur]

Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Congratulations to countries with elective representation: the only countries capable of mobilizing an army in times of war!

Not even close to what I said. Naturally, the dictatorships mobilize sooner and have the initial advantage. My point was that even though the democracies were caught off guard and took a beating in the early days, they pulled themselves together quickly enough to make a comeback.

The only reason the UK wasn't conquered just the same as France, Belgium and everywhere else is because it's an island. That meant the UK was able to just hang tight and watching the Nazis kamikaze into the USSR while it waited a few years for the US to come help.

That certainly was one of the reasons, but it wasn't the "only" reason. Still, the conversation is digressing further and further from the original point, so I'll just let it be.

In any case, I don't understand what you think 'democracy' has to do with the US and USSR beating the Nazis in Europe.

If you follow the conversation back, the original point I was replying to was your contention that because of the EU's democratic conventions, it wouldn't be able to make decisions fast enough to respond to a military threat. I pointed out that when their survival is at stake, democracies can speed up the process and make decisions in a big hurry also.

[mrswdk]

You said 'democracies' are good at mobilizing in times of war. I don't see what makes them any different to any other country in that regard. It's not like countries that don't have elected representatives just sit around yankin' it right up until the point enemy troops are marching through their capital.

And either way, the EU still makes substantive decisions with the speed of a paralytic kitten.

[Dukasaur]

You said 'democracies' are good at mobilizing in times of war. I don't see what makes them any different to any other country in that regard.

I didn't say they're particularly good at it. Obviously dictatorships mobilize faster and get the initial advantage. I said that when push comes to shove, the democracies will pull their socks up and make decisions fast enough to survive.

And either way, the EU still makes substantive decisions with the speed of a paralytic kitten.

It's peacetime. There's nothing particularly urgent to decide. This is precisely my point. When there's no danger you can take your time, consult with everybody this side of the moon, debate everything for months on end to make sure every voice is heard. When danger comes you set all that aside.

[mrswdk]

You said 'democracies' are good at mobilizing in times of war. I don't see what makes them any different to any other country in that regard.

I didn't say they're particularly good at it. Obviously dictatorships mobilize faster and get the initial advantage. I said that when push comes to shove, the democracies will pull their socks up and make decisions fast enough to survive.

And either way, the EU still makes substantive decisions with the speed of a paralytic kitten.

It's peacetime. There's nothing particularly urgent to decide. This is precisely my point. When there's no danger you can take your time, consult with everybody this side of the moon, debate everything for months on end to make sure every voice is heard. When danger comes you set all that aside.

In the context of waauw's blood-curdling demands that an EU army be assembled and dispatched to hover near the border of NATO member Turkey (with whom conflict is 0% likely), I think it's fair to say that any decision is going to take the EU roughly 100 years to make.

[betiko]

be careful Erdogan. you are disapointing the European League of Superpowers & Justice.
We have Wonder Woman, Superman.. and, and.. maybe Robin. Maybe someone else too. Batman says he's not available.

[mrswdk]

be careful Erdogan. you are disapointing the European League of Superpowers & Justice.
We have Wonder Woman, Superman.. and, and.. maybe Robin. Maybe someone else too. Batman says he's not available.

Very appropriate that your list of European Superpowers are all American.

[patches70]

So yeah, the Russians did their part, and as the war went on they became increasingly powerful, but without the help of the Allies they could not have won.

Har, ya got that right! The Russians "part" was to be bullet shields so the allies could have time to build up.
Stalin: "My people will use up all the German ammunition by being bullet magnets. Keep sending us food and supplies so that my meat shields won't starve before they soak up their allotted number of bullets."

The Russians are tough sons of bitches, though. I'll give 'em that. I don't know any western nations that could have absorbed that number of casualties and still been able to keep fighting.

[GoranZ]

You guys can laugh. These criticisms are always levied at democracies. Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Are you joking, 1939?
If it weren't for the Soviets in WW2 I'm 100% sure we would have communicated in German now

Say whatever you want, but Dukkie does make a point. It's American industry that won WWII. Without american supplies both the british AND the soviets would have lost. In the Pacific the japanese outmatched the americans before Pearl Harbour, but were soon overtaken because the military-industrial output combined with the superior american numbers were too much to bare.

I think only around 5% of soviet weapons was US/UK made at the end of the war, and large part of it arrived in the period 1943-45. I'm not sure if the British would have lost, UK is an island which is natural barrier. Russian land is similar, too cold for the Germans. But saying that US are key factor... I dont think so. Anyway Soviets and British did a lot more fighting then the Americans.

Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Congratulations to countries with elective representation: the only countries capable of mobilizing an army in times of war!

Not even close to what I said. Naturally, the dictatorships mobilize sooner and have the initial advantage. My point was that even though the democracies were caught off guard and took a beating in the early days, they pulled themselves together quickly enough to make a comeback.

]

You guys can laugh. These criticisms are always levied at democracies. Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Are you joking, 1939?
If it weren't for the Soviets in WW2 I'm 100% sure we would have communicated in German now

The Soviets did their part, that's for sure. Still, without the democracies the Soviets would have fallen.

The original target date for Operation Barbarossa was May 1st. If the invasion had started on time, the Germans would have reached Moscow before winter. The Red Army of 1941 was a mess and lost every encounter. Russia would have fallen. It was the desperate and unexpected resistance that the Germans encountered in Greece that kept much of the German Army bogged down in Greece and forced the postponement of Barbarossa until June 22nd. Almost every military historian, even the Russians, agrees that the six week delay in starting the invasion was what cost Hitler his initial gambit.

From 1942 on Russia was more and more powerful, but that first year they would not have survived if the Greeks and British hadn't bought time for them. Even after that, it's still possible that the Germans could have conquered Russia, but they were bogged down on many fronts. British and American command of the sea lanes prevented them from importing strategic materials. Meanwhile huge quantities of strategic materials were shipped from both America and Canada to the Russians.

British command of North Africa and eventually the Mediterranean prevented the Germans from getting to Middle Eastern oil. American dominance in the Pacific allowed Russia to ignore the Japanese and keep only token forces in the Far East. British and American bombing of Germany was a massive drag on German industry, economics, and morale.

So yeah, the Russians did their part, and as the war went on they became increasingly powerful, but without the help of the Allies they could not have won. The Allies, meanwhile, could have eventually won without the Russians. It would have taken a hell of a lot longer, but with the German Navy and Air Force being vastly inferior to their Allied counterparts, the British and Americans could have taken their sweet time building up until the time was right.

Soviets(not just Russians) stopped the Germans on their own, even if Germans started their campaign on the beginning of may, they would have reached Moscow and probably Moscow would have turned into what Stalingrad become a year later. Even if they have lost Moscow, Russians would have continued(Napoleon...)

But lets back to 1939... Nazi Germany was dictatorship, France and UK were democratic, what did actually happen to France a year later? Democracy in Europe didn't work in times of war... its the same with EU now

[mrswdk]

Duk's post was too much of a tl;dr so I missed this quote until just now:

American dominance in the Pacific allowed Russia to ignore the Japanese and keep only token forces in the Far East.

America had nothing to do with it. Japan left the Soviet Union alone during the 1940s because out of its two options for expansion - Siberia or SE Asia - it felt that SE Asia was the easier option. Especially when it was already bogged down in a massive war with China.

Japan had already signed a neutrality pact with the Soviets and focused its attention elsewhere before America even entered the war.

[Thorthoth]

Don't you have a filthy opium den you cango overdose in, Mr swdk?

[Bernie Sanders]

Let's not forget.....Turkey would have to go through Greece first and the Kurds would open a second front.

Turkey attacking EUROPE? PUHLEEEZE!

[waauw]

Let's not forget.....Turkey would have to go through Greece first and the Kurds would open a second front.

Turkey attacking EUROPE? PUHLEEEZE!

Greece is part of europe and I did mention funding the Kurds and revolutionary movements. I'm all for trying to support those Turks that want to remove him themselves, but if ever push comes to shove.

I don't believe Erdogan is rational enough not to pick a fight eventually. The fact that he is purposely trying to instigate riots within his most important export market, the EU, and instigating worsening relations is evidence enough he's just another power drunk lunatic. You can't reason with a madman.

[waauw]

You guys can laugh. These criticisms are always levied at democracies. Fact is, when the shit hits the fan, democracies are pretty good at dropping everything and pulling up their socks in a hurry. 1853, 1865, 1914, 1939, 1950. The democracies started out a little dazed and confused, but pulled themselves together soon enough.

Are you joking, 1939?
If it weren't for the Soviets in WW2 I'm 100% sure we would have communicated in German now

Say whatever you want, but Dukkie does make a point. It's American industry that won WWII. Without american supplies both the british AND the soviets would have lost. In the Pacific the japanese outmatched the americans before Pearl Harbour, but were soon overtaken because the military-industrial output combined with the superior american numbers were too much to bare.

I think only around 5% of soviet weapons was US/UK made at the end of the war, and large part of it arrived in the period 1943-45. I'm not sure if the British would have lost, UK is an island which is natural barrier. Russian land is similar, too cold for the Germans. But saying that US are key factor... I dont think so. Anyway Soviets and British did a lot more fighting then the Americans.

Without American food and material supplies WWII soviet union would have seen the same large scale revolts it did during WWI.

[Thorthoth]

Of course Sovs and Brits did more fighting, even them Frenchers probably did more... because THEY HAD TO. Their backs were squashed against the wall.

[GoranZ]

Without American food and material supplies WWII soviet union would have seen the same large scale revolts it did during WWI.

I doubt... As Thorthoth points out, Soviets(and British) knew that Nazis only wanted their death so revolting was pointless.

[waauw]

As expected, Erdogan is preparing to turn aggressive against europe. Action is necessary! Erdogan can not be trusted, and should be treated as an enemy before he tries for his well-known Ottoman Empire ambitions.

Turkey to buy missile defence from Russia

Turkey agreed to pay €2.2 billion for Russia’s most advanced missile defence system, in a deal that signals a turn away from Nato, Bloomberg reported. According to the preliminary agreement, Turkey will receive two S-400 missile batteries from Russia next year, and another two will be produced inside Turkey. Nato has earlier protested a possible missile defence deal with China.

https://euobserver.com/tickers/138527

[GoranZ]

As expected, Erdogan is preparing to turn aggressive against europe. Action is necessary! Erdogan can not be trusted, and should be treated as an enemy before he tries for his well-known Ottoman Empire ambitions.

Turkey to buy missile defence from Russia

Turkey agreed to pay €2.2 billion for Russia’s most advanced missile defence system, in a deal that signals a turn away from Nato, Bloomberg reported. According to the preliminary agreement, Turkey will receive two S-400 missile batteries from Russia next year, and another two will be produced inside Turkey. Nato has earlier protested a possible missile defence deal with China.

https://euobserver.com/tickers/138527

Erdogan is preparing to battle with the Kurds in Iraq and Syria. S400 is quite good bargaining chip to defend Turkey of possible problems. Obviously a deal with Russia for Syria and division of spheres of influence is already made.
Too bad EU doesn't have independent view for the world and blindly follows the American one.

[waauw]

As expected, Erdogan is preparing to turn aggressive against europe. Action is necessary! Erdogan can not be trusted, and should be treated as an enemy before he tries for his well-known Ottoman Empire ambitions.

Turkey to buy missile defence from Russia

Turkey agreed to pay €2.2 billion for Russia’s most advanced missile defence system, in a deal that signals a turn away from Nato, Bloomberg reported. According to the preliminary agreement, Turkey will receive two S-400 missile batteries from Russia next year, and another two will be produced inside Turkey. Nato has earlier protested a possible missile defence deal with China.

https://euobserver.com/tickers/138527

Erdogan is preparing to battle with the Kurds in Iraq and Syria. S400 is quite good bargaining chip to defend Turkey of possible problems. Obviously a deal with Russia for Syria and division of spheres of influence is already made.
Too bad EU doesn't have independent view for the world and blindly follows the American one.

We don't need americans to hate Turks. You're in the balkan, shouldn't you know that?

[GoranZ]

As expected, Erdogan is preparing to turn aggressive against europe. Action is necessary! Erdogan can not be trusted, and should be treated as an enemy before he tries for his well-known Ottoman Empire ambitions.

Turkey to buy missile defence from Russia

Turkey agreed to pay €2.2 billion for Russia’s most advanced missile defence system, in a deal that signals a turn away from Nato, Bloomberg reported. According to the preliminary agreement, Turkey will receive two S-400 missile batteries from Russia next year, and another two will be produced inside Turkey. Nato has earlier protested a possible missile defence deal with China.

https://euobserver.com/tickers/138527

Erdogan is preparing to battle with the Kurds in Iraq and Syria. S400 is quite good bargaining chip to defend Turkey of possible problems. Obviously a deal with Russia for Syria and division of spheres of influence is already made.
Too bad EU doesn't have independent view for the world and blindly follows the American one.

We don't need americans to hate Turks. You're in the balkan, shouldn't you know that?

Turks... well I don't hate the Turks, I know few Turks, they as good people as any other. But I hate Erdogan and what he likes to achieve.