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Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

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Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby patches70 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:55 pm

Bernie Sanders (the real one, not the hack from this forum) turned in his US Senate financial disclosure for 2016. It was a good year for Bernie!

He received $795,000 advance for his book "Our Revolution". He got another $63,750 for his upcoming "Bernie Sanders guide to political revolution". That's $858,750 for peddling working class ideals. Add in another $6,000+ in royalties for 1997 memoir and $2,200+ royalties for his 1987 folk album plus his $174,000 salary from his Senate job and Bernie Sanders made around $1,052,000 in 2016.

Bernie rails against the 1% but he made 1% level income for 2016. He bought a $575,000 lakefront home and owns two more six figure homes. Sanders is a big fan of keeping and using the fruits of his labors. Socialism for the rest of you, Capitalism for him.
The Lakehouse he bought using a trust he created specifically to buy the house. Probably for tax reasons I'd assume. Good on 'em I say!

Suck it losers!

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/ ... on-in-2016
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby waauw on Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:09 am

Only republitards thought he wasn't capitalist. Wake up, in the 21st century socialism=/=against capitalism.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:20 am

patches70 wrote:Bernie Sanders (the real one, not the hack from this forum) turned in his US Senate financial disclosure for 2016. It was a good year for Bernie!

He received $795,000 advance for his book "Our Revolution". He got another $63,750 for his upcoming "Bernie Sanders guide to political revolution". That's $858,750 for peddling working class ideals. Add in another $6,000+ in royalties for 1997 memoir and $2,200+ royalties for his 1987 folk album plus his $174,000 salary from his Senate job and Bernie Sanders made around $1,052,000 in 2016.

Bernie rails against the 1% but he made 1% level income for 2016. He bought a $575,000 lakefront home and owns two more six figure homes. Sanders is a big fan of keeping and using the fruits of his labors. Socialism for the rest of you, Capitalism for him.
The Lakehouse he bought using a trust he created specifically to buy the house. Probably for tax reasons I'd assume. Good on 'em I say!

Suck it losers!

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/ ... on-in-2016



Patches is a bit confused.

Bernie wants to raise taxes on the top 1%.

Go away pea-brain. You must be suffering the same mental infliction as Trump.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby tzor on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:42 pm

patches70 wrote:He received $795,000 advance for his book "Our Revolution". He got another $63,750 for his upcoming "Bernie Sanders guide to political revolution". That's $858,750 for peddling working class ideals. Add in another $6,000+ in royalties for 1997 memoir and $2,200+ royalties for his 1987 folk album plus his $174,000 salary from his Senate job and Bernie Sanders made around $1,052,000 in 2016.


I hate to tell it to you, book deals ≠ capitalism. Bernie never had a real paying private sector job in his life and his only occupation, starting when he was forty something was in government positions. He is a crony politician, not a capitalist.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:20 pm

How much would someone make from their popular book published in CCCP?
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby mookiemcgee on Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:10 pm

Bernie isn't against earning money, nor is he against capatilism. He isn't a communist, he's a socialst. He's just saying he should pay more taxes with his big income. The difference is Trump doesn't want to pay, and Bernie does.

Bernie doesn't argue for the state taking over private companies, he just says those companies should contribute to the overall health of the society. You can wrap that up in all the bullshit you want, but it's clear as day to those with open eyes that he is arguing that you patches should make (marginally) more money, and that Goldman Sachs should make (marginally) less. Too bad so many people that can't afford premium on this site, seem to think that is a bad idea.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby riskllama on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:13 pm

well said, mook.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby patches70 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:14 pm

tzor wrote:
patches70 wrote:He received $795,000 advance for his book "Our Revolution". He got another $63,750 for his upcoming "Bernie Sanders guide to political revolution". That's $858,750 for peddling working class ideals. Add in another $6,000+ in royalties for 1997 memoir and $2,200+ royalties for his 1987 folk album plus his $174,000 salary from his Senate job and Bernie Sanders made around $1,052,000 in 2016.


I hate to tell it to you, book deals ≠ capitalism. Bernie never had a real paying private sector job in his life and his only occupation, starting when he was forty something was in government positions. He is a crony politician, not a capitalist.



Whoa now there cowboy. Bernie Sanders campaigned for increasing taxes on the 1%. Under Bernie's own plan, he'd of had to fork over 45% of that $1,000,000+ he made. What does Bernie do? Does he stand by his convictions and. since he wasn't taxed, just sign over 45% of that money to some charity? Of course not! He kept it because f*ck it, it's mine. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for that, good for Bernie. I'm glad he made a shitload of money. I'm even gladder he's enjoying that money, he earned it after all, it's his.

What's not so good is all these leftists, socialists, elitists mother fuckers preaching day and night that everyone else has to give up this much more of their labor or use this much less of resources, or give up this much because climate change. Then these same preachy mother fuckers go around flying on private jets, f*ck the environment, other people gotta give up that shit not me. Making all that money and spending like a drunk sailor on shore leave on Thailand, f*ck giving up the fruits of their own labors, that's for other people to have to do, not me.


Why doesn't middle America like these pricks? Because they are full of shit, don't practice what they preach and are nothing more than charlatans and hypocrites.

I'd be so much more happy with Bernie if he just said "f*ck you, it's my money, I'll do what the f*ck I want with my money. No one else is entitled to it!" I'd say "f*ck yeah Bernie! You tell them. Just like I'd say to politicians who say I gotta pay more taxes because poor people or rich elitist Hollywood stars say I gotta stop driving my car because climate change while they fly on their private jets to have lunch in a Paris cafe. Or the anti Trump rich f*ck who says building a wall at the border is racist but building a wall around my private compound is just good security. Or the rich singer who says you gotta live with God knows where they came from or who they are immigrants while they live in 99% white gated communities well insulated from the crime, job loss and other problems that arise by taking in loads of people with no way of assimilating or prospects and the social upheaval that causes it.


The more these hypocrites do this shit, not practicing what they preach, the more the vast majority of regular people see them for what they are. Liars, bullshit artists and hypocrites. So I'm all for the Bernie's of the world to just keep on doing what they're doing showing everyone just exactly how differently live themselves while preaching about how everyone else has to change. Pushback is the inevitable result.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:24 pm

I'm with you there Patches except. I don't know how much he gives to charity.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby patches70 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:34 pm

mookiemcgee wrote:Bernie isn't against earning money, nor is he against capatilism. He isn't a communist, he's a socialst. He's just saying he should pay more taxes with his big income. The difference is Trump doesn't want to pay, and Bernie does.

Bernie doesn't argue for the state taking over private companies, he just says those companies should contribute to the overall health of the society. You can wrap that up in all the bullshit you want, but it's clear as day to those with open eyes that he is arguing that you patches should make (marginally) more money, and that Goldman Sachs should make (marginally) less. Too bad so many people that can't afford premium on this site, seem to think that is a bad idea.


I don't give a shit what Goldman Sachs makes, I don't need Bernie Sanders defending me trying to "help me" make more money. With the help of people like him I might as well just have to deal with the Mafia, at least they can sometimes be realistic.

I pity the poor bastard who is relying on a politician to swoop in and save them from the very abyss often self inflicted or caused by the State. Hey, if Bernie wanted people to make more money how about NOT taxing their income?
I don't want anyone robbing someone else to give me a pittance of the money stolen or even a single dime of such stolen money. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor is a romantic and morally reprehensible thing to do and it's from a freaking fairy tale. It's still stealing and not to mention trying to apply a fairy tale morality to reality isn't the best idea.

And any junior economist knows that any taxes levied against corporations are always passed on to the consumer. You say that corporations should just be taxed a little bit more? Well that fucking money always ends up coming from the consumer. You think that is going to hurt the rich actor behind his gated walls around his mansion? Spoiler for ya, it won't matter to them. It will, however, matter to the very poor people you claim to want to help because they are the one who end up paying for those taxes and they are the ones who can least afford it.

People really gotta understand that the State cannot solve these problems. The State can only make them worse because the State produces nothing, consumes enormous amounts of other people's labor and the principles involved within the State enrich themselves at the expense of the very people who are praying that they'll be somehow helped or saved by the very people who have been cornholing them all along.

You think people need helping? Then go out and help people. No one is stopping you. Just go do it. Spend your own money, use your own time, just don't go around telling everyone else to give up their time and money. Or if you do don't get angry if people ignore you or don't do what you want them.

Each individual can decide for themselves. Contrary to popular belief, most people are generally good and want to help other people. On the other hand people are generally put off by hypocrites, liars and con men. Hypocrites, liars and con men pretty much sum up almost every single politician currently in existence at this moment and into the foreseeable future.

Yeah, I know, it's a hell of a pickle. Unless of course you'd like to argue about how noble, upright and moral politicians are, then by all means, attempt to do so.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:43 pm

I think a $20/hour minimum wage will just lead to $25 hamburgers and we end up in the same boat metaphorically.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby patches70 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:47 pm

2dimes wrote:I'm with you there Patches except. I don't know how much he gives to charity.


He gave 4% of his income to charity in 2014, the last date I'm aware of where such information is available. By comparison, Hillary Clinton gave over 11% of her income to charity in 2014, mostly to the Clinton Foundation...
I am not sure exactly what charities Bernie gave to.
In his 2016 Senate financial disclosure there is no mention of charity given.

The typical church going Christian typically give 10% to charity, usually to their church. How much you wanna bet that if Bernie Sanders had actually given a decent amount of his money to charity you would've heard about it? I mean damn, 10% is pretty much the standard one is supposed to give to charity every year, but hey, that's what's great about a free country, one can give or not give to one's desire.

I bet Bernie tips his waitress 10% when he eats out.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby patches70 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:52 pm

2dimes wrote:I think a $20/hour minimum wage will just lead to $25 hamburgers and we end up in the same boat metaphorically.




Absolutely, but try telling that to the people who keep saying "If only we'd raise the minimum wage". Or the Zuckerbergs who advocate that everyone should get a minimum stipend from the government every year. An idiotic idea. A great romanticized bunch of wishful thinking, but reality based, not wise, not wise at all. That just ends up killing the poorest people by swamping them with the most insidious hidden tax ever devised by mankind. Inflation.

If you look at it, if you really want to help the people the most who need the most help, people would be advocating for sound money principles. Inflation is the true killer of the poor, harms the savers the most and benefits the richest best.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:54 pm

patches70 wrote:
I pity the poor bastard who is relying on a politician to swoop in and save them from the very abyss often self inflicted or caused by the State. Hey, if Bernie wanted people to make more money how about NOT taxing their income?
I don't want anyone robbing someone else to give me a pittance of the money stolen or even a single dime of such stolen money. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor is a romantic and morally reprehensible thing to do and it's from a freaking fairy tale. It's still stealing and not to mention trying to apply a fairy tale morality to reality isn't the best idea.

Have to stop you right there, cowboy, because you're riding down the wrong trail fast. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor may be morally reprehensible if you take the assumption that the rich are entitled to their money, but most of the rich stole their money from you to begin with, and there's nothing reprehensible about stealing back from a thief.

Let's start with the top of the list, the Limited Liability Corporation. Now, here's a scam that has been run for hundreds of years and is still accelerating. Corporations borrow a pile of money, sell a bunch of shoddy products, work their employees hard. For this, the officers and directors pay themselves huge bonuses. Then there's a downturn in the economy, company goes tits up. The creditors get ripped off, the customers get ripped off (because they're just now finding out how shit the product is, and the warranty is now worthless) and the employees get ripped off (they'll probably get their final paycheque after a bit of a delay, but they'll probably lose their pension, etc.) The officers and directors walk away with everything they looted from the place. Everybody loses except the authors of the scam. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Absent the state, if someone was unable to pay his debt to you, and you saw that he himself was destitute, you might be tempted to forgive the debt. But if you saw him collecting a five million dollar bonus during a quarter when the company was going down the toilet, if you saw him riding around in a Maserati and handing out diamonds to his mistresses, you probably wouldn't be so forgiving. But this is exactly the situation that the State forces you to accept.

Okay, that's the tip of the iceberg. Number two. Fiat currency and legal tender laws. This is several scams in one. The bankers inflate the currency, they pay themselves first. The inflation of the money supply leads to price inflation, but by then they've already spent the money. By the time you get it, prices are going up and your paycheque is worth less than it was when you contracted to work for that sum, but the important thing is that the people who made the bubble got to spend it and buy assets with the money before the prices went up. So, they bought things at yesterday's prices, but by the time the money works its way down the food chain you'll be buying things at tomorrow's prices.

Legal tender laws make it impossible to protect yourself from this scam. You have to accept the devaluing money, because the bankers control the government and the government says this is the coin of the realm, na na na na na na naaaa!

Then they play this pulsing with the fiat currency, which they call the business cycle, but actually should be called the scam cycle. They pump out shitloads of funny money and everybody thinks they're rich and runs out to buy a bunch of stuff they can't afford. Then the money supply is cut and suddenly everyone is declaring bankruptcy and the bankers pick up a lot of nice houses at firesale prices. Lather, rinse, repeat. With every cycle the bankers have a bit larger percentage of the nation's wealth, without really creating anything at all. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Okay, we all know the bankers are thieves, but certainly people that make honest products aren't, are they? Well, let's have a look at just some of these. Car manufacturers, let's say. The quarter-panel on your late-model car is a piece of extruded plastic that costs about five bucks to squeeze out of the plastic extrusion machine. Need to get one replaced? $1400. Now, I understand, everybody needs to make a living, supply chains cost money, etc., etc., but the process by which this $5 piece of plastic becomes a $1400 commodity has nothing to do with costs or supply chains and everything to do with bullshit patents. Hey, I'm all in favour of rewarding ingenuity and granting patents to inventors, but the patent on the quarter panel for your car has nothing to do with inventors. There's no tech there that we didn't already have 35 years ago. The quarter panel on your car is probably almost identical to another car like yours that was made a year earlier. Some little cosmetic change was made, and you probably don't even know what it is, but that little change allowed them to get a new design patent which means that aftermarket competitors won't be able to make that part for you. We're told competition will bring down the price of goods, but these bogus design patents exist precisely so no competition exists and the price never goes down. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

I suppose even with the patents, aftermarket manufacturers would fill the niche, through the black market if necessary. If people had to pay for those parts out-of-pocket, they would rebel and break the law and build secret manufacturing facilities of their own. But that kind of rebellion is prevented because nobody pays directly for those parts. They pay for them, oh yes! The dearly pay for them! But invisibly, through another little scam called mandatory liability insurance. Thus, everybody pays, a bit at a time, and don't even realize how badly they're getting screwed. And when the bill for the quarter-panel comes in, they say "well, I guess I paid for it already" and shrug their shoulders. Yes, they did pay for it already! But they would never have paid that amount if they had to hand over the cash at the time of the installation. The pain was spread out over many years, and it's already in the past. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Here's one of my favourite stories, from when I drove courier. The $22 pack of matches. Now, you can go into a store and get a pack of matches for 5 cents. Back then it was 2 cents. But one of our clients would pay me to go to the safety supply company and buy a pack of matches. The pack cost $12 and I charged them another $10 to deliver it, so $22 total. The pack of matches had the stamp of an engineer on it, and it was "guaranteed to produced smoke." Now, any fucking match will produce smoke -- if you got one that won't smoke, just bring it to me and I'll make it smoke. But these guys couldn't use an ordinary pack of matches from the corner store, because they were running a hotel, and their insurance company wouldn't renew their insurance policy unless they tested their smoke alarms with matches guaranteed to produce smoke. So somewhere out there is a clever engineer who takes 2 cent packs of matches, puts his stamp on them, and makes them into $22 packs of matches. He's got a license to print money; the insurance companies maintain his license, and in turn the government maintains theirs. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Which brings us to the next scam -- barriers to entry and the university degree. The engineer is an engineer because he had parents who could afford to send him to a very expensive university and get him an engineering degree. Now, this is the Internet Age. All the knowlege to become and engineer is out there, free to anyone who wants to learn. But no matter how much knowledge you accumulate, it doesn't mean shit unless you get a piece of paper from a semi-monopolistic institution saying you're an engineer. That piece of paper will cost you (in my country) about $60,000 to procure and (in your country) quite possibly five times as much. Don't get me wrong -- I'm all in favour of high standards, but we could let people study on their own and bring them in for rigorous testing at the end to make sure they're not bullshitting, and we could probably maintain really high standards for a few hundred, not thousand, dollars. Licensing boards, universities, professional associations, are all part of a rigged system to make sure that high-paying jobs only go to those who already have a lot of money. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

I could go on and on, but it's been an hour already and my fingers hurt.

Bottom line, the rich are not innocents. The laws are written to make sure the rich get richer. LLCs, fiat currency and all its derivatives, legal ternder laws, eminent domain (I didn't get into that one -- basically the process by which a developer can acquire "rights" by paying off a handful of politicians instead of a large number of homeowners), mandatory insurance, bloated patent and copyright laws, licensing and other barriers to entry -- these are all parts of a system that fucks you over regularly, constantly. Unless you're camping in the high Andes and eating grubs, you can't get away from all the perfectly legal ways the rich have to rob you.

Socialism isn't about robbing innocent bodies. Socialism is about Robin Hood taking from a very corrupt Sheriff of Nottingham.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.”
― Voltaire
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby mookiemcgee on Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:10 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
patches70 wrote:
I pity the poor bastard who is relying on a politician to swoop in and save them from the very abyss often self inflicted or caused by the State. Hey, if Bernie wanted people to make more money how about NOT taxing their income?
I don't want anyone robbing someone else to give me a pittance of the money stolen or even a single dime of such stolen money. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor is a romantic and morally reprehensible thing to do and it's from a freaking fairy tale. It's still stealing and not to mention trying to apply a fairy tale morality to reality isn't the best idea.

Have to stop you right there, cowboy, because you're riding down the wrong trail fast. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor may be morally reprehensible if you take the assumption that the rich are entitled to their money, but most of the rich stole their money from you to begin with, and there's nothing reprehensible about stealing back from a thief.

Let's start with the top of the list, the Limited Liability Corporation. Now, here's a scam that has been run for hundreds of years and is still accelerating. Corporations borrow a pile of money, sell a bunch of shoddy products, work their employees hard. For this, the officers and directors pay themselves huge bonuses. Then there's a downturn in the economy, company goes tits up. The creditors get ripped off, the customers get ripped off (because they're just now finding out how shit the product is, and the warranty is now worthless) and the employees get ripped off (they'll probably get their final paycheque after a bit of a delay, but they'll probably lose their pension, etc.) The officers and directors walk away with everything they looted from the place. Everybody loses except the authors of the scam. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Absent the state, if someone was unable to pay his debt to you, and you saw that he himself was destitute, you might be tempted to forgive the debt. But if you saw him collecting a five million dollar bonus during a quarter when the company was going down the toilet, if you saw him riding around in a Maserati and handing out diamonds to his mistresses, you probably wouldn't be so forgiving. But this is exactly the situation that the State forces you to accept.

Okay, that's the tip of the iceberg. Number two. Fiat currency and legal tender laws. This is several scams in one. The bankers inflate the currency, they pay themselves first. The inflation of the money supply leads to price inflation, but by then they've already spent the money. By the time you get it, prices are going up and your paycheque is worth less than it was when you contracted to work for that sum, but the important thing is that the people who made the bubble got to spend it and buy assets with the money before the prices went up. So, they bought things at yesterday's prices, but by the time the money works its way down the food chain you'll be buying things at tomorrow's prices.

Legal tender laws make it impossible to protect yourself from this scam. You have to accept the devaluing money, because the bankers control the government and the government says this is the coin of the realm, na na na na na na naaaa!

Then they play this pulsing with the fiat currency, which they call the business cycle, but actually should be called the scam cycle. They pump out shitloads of funny money and everybody thinks they're rich and runs out to buy a bunch of stuff they can't afford. Then the money supply is cut and suddenly everyone is declaring bankruptcy and the bankers pick up a lot of nice houses at firesale prices. Lather, rinse, repeat. With every cycle the bankers have a bit larger percentage of the nation's wealth, without really creating anything at all. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Okay, we all know the bankers are thieves, but certainly people that make honest products aren't, are they? Well, let's have a look at just some of these. Car manufacturers, let's say. The quarter-panel on your late-model car is a piece of extruded plastic that costs about five bucks to squeeze out of the plastic extrusion machine. Need to get one replaced? $1400. Now, I understand, everybody needs to make a living, supply chains cost money, etc., etc., but the process by which this $5 piece of plastic becomes a $1400 commodity has nothing to do with costs or supply chains and everything to do with bullshit patents. Hey, I'm all in favour of rewarding ingenuity and granting patents to inventors, but the patent on the quarter panel for your car has nothing to do with inventors. There's no tech there that we didn't already have 35 years ago. The quarter panel on your car is probably almost identical to another car like yours that was made a year earlier. Some little cosmetic change was made, and you probably don't even know what it is, but that little change allowed them to get a new design patent which means that aftermarket competitors won't be able to make that part for you. We're told competition will bring down the price of goods, but these bogus design patents exist precisely so no competition exists and the price never goes down. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

I suppose even with the patents, aftermarket manufacturers would fill the niche, through the black market if necessary. If people had to pay for those parts out-of-pocket, they would rebel and break the law and build secret manufacturing facilities of their own. But that kind of rebellion is prevented because nobody pays directly for those parts. They pay for them, oh yes! The dearly pay for them! But invisibly, through another little scam called mandatory liability insurance. Thus, everybody pays, a bit at a time, and don't even realize how badly they're getting screwed. And when the bill for the quarter-panel comes in, they say "well, I guess I paid for it already" and shrug their shoulders. Yes, they did pay for it already! But they would never have paid that amount if they had to hand over the cash at the time of the installation. The pain was spread out over many years, and it's already in the past. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Here's one of my favourite stories, from when I drove courier. The $22 pack of matches. Now, you can go into a store and get a pack of matches for 5 cents. Back then it was 2 cents. But one of our clients would pay me to go to the safety supply company and buy a pack of matches. The pack cost $12 and I charged them another $10 to deliver it, so $22 total. The pack of matches had the stamp of an engineer on it, and it was "guaranteed to produced smoke." Now, any fucking match will produce smoke -- if you got one that won't smoke, just bring it to me and I'll make it smoke. But these guys couldn't use an ordinary pack of matches from the corner store, because they were running a hotel, and their insurance company wouldn't renew their insurance policy unless they tested their smoke alarms with matches guaranteed to produce smoke. So somewhere out there is a clever engineer who takes 2 cent packs of matches, puts his stamp on them, and makes them into $22 packs of matches. He's got a license to print money; the insurance companies maintain his license, and in turn the government maintains theirs. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Which brings us to the next scam -- barriers to entry and the university degree. The engineer is an engineer because he had parents who could afford to send him to a very expensive university and get him an engineering degree. Now, this is the Internet Age. All the knowlege to become and engineer is out there, free to anyone who wants to learn. But no matter how much knowledge you accumulate, it doesn't mean shit unless you get a piece of paper from a semi-monopolistic institution saying you're an engineer. That piece of paper will cost you (in my country) about $60,000 to procure and (in your country) quite possibly five times as much. Don't get me wrong -- I'm all in favour of high standards, but we could let people study on their own and bring them in for rigorous testing at the end to make sure they're not bullshitting, and we could probably maintain really high standards for a few hundred, not thousand, dollars. Licensing boards, universities, professional associations, are all part of a rigged system to make sure that high-paying jobs only go to those who already have a lot of money. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

I could go on and on, but it's been an hour already and my fingers hurt.

Bottom line, the rich are not innocents. The laws are written to make sure the rich get richer. LLCs, fiat currency and all its derivatives, legal ternder laws, eminent domain (I didn't get into that one -- basically the process by which a developer can acquire "rights" by paying off a handful of politicians instead of a large number of homeowners), mandatory insurance, bloated patent and copyright laws, licensing and other barriers to entry -- these are all parts of a system that fucks you over regularly, constantly. Unless you're camping in the high Andes and eating grubs, you can't get away from all the perfectly legal ways the rich have to rob you.

Socialism isn't about robbing innocent bodies. Socialism is about Robin Hood taking from a very corrupt Sheriff of Nottingham.


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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby King_Herpes on Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:58 pm

Sorry about your little butt ✪ Dumb fucking e-lambs the lot of you
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby patches70 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:12 pm

Dude, I agree, the fiat currency, legal tender laws, fraud. Fraud is a crime, immoral and unethical. But that's the currency system currently used by virtually every single government on the planet.

I don't remember Bernie talking about reforming the fiat currency system. I never heard Bernie talking about sound money. Sure, he rails against the banks but the banks and the government are partners. The Federal Reserve has a government sounding name, but they aren't a government agency.

Do you know what the top 1% is in the United States? The IRS states that the top 1% are people who make $450,001 or more. In your entire railing you aren't talking about the guy that is making $500K.

You talk about inflation. I don't see the Bernie supporters acknowledging the inflation creating policies Bernie advocates. They just ignore that. When the government writes bonds and has the Fed print more money to give to Paul through another give away, it's inflationary.

You talk about the colleges where people can't afford to go to college. I don't know if you are aware or not, the US government pumped $1trillion into the higher education market. The US government basically took over the entire student loan market. Tell me, what happens when you dump $1trillion dollars into a virtually static market. I mean it takes a lot of time to build a new college. Still the same number of colleges, but now there is a whole huge influx of new money pumped in, what happens? Inflation.
Why is college unaffordable? Inflation. Who is responsible for inflation? Politicians and banks.

The fiat money system throughout the entire recorded human history has always, without fail, ended the same way. They always collapse. A lot of the problems you describe can be attributed to the manipulation of the fiat currencies which are easily changed in value arbitrarily. It's a vast amount of power, to actually set the worth of a person's labor if you think about it.

If you, Duk, a morally upright, ethical person, had this power all to yourself, it'd be like the One Ring to Rule them all, the power would corrupt you. You'd lose control of it out of a desire to do good, hopefully, but lose control you would because all fiat currencies are unstable.

Where was Bernie ever seen talking about this? He's blabbering on about free college for everyone, pure insanity. A pipe dream. Sure, it's a nice dream, if the world were different, if resources weren't finite, if professors and workers would work for no pay, maybe it could be possible. But that's not reality. There is no such thing as free.
Your LLC rant, I don't even know how to respond. I'm not really sure you understand what an LLC is. LLC's are a valid option for small businesses that can't meet the paper work requirements to be a corporation.

Sure, there are bad corporations. So? Look around your house, the computer you type on provided by a corporation. The phone you use. Corporation. The car you drive, the gas you put in, the electricity you use, corporations. It's easy to blame the corporations, and believe me there are some crappy ones without a doubt. The LLC has advantages and disadvantages pretty much like anything else I suppose. And of course LLC's and Corporations fall under the enforcement power of the State. That's one of the main purposes for the formation of a State, to enforce contracts.

Your example of the guy destitute and forgiving his debt then you see him getting paid big time. Great! Now you can collect your debt and the State will certainly assist in this because I'd assume (if you weren't doing illegal things to be indebted to, like drug running or what not) then you'd have a legal contract of which the guy would have to pay. If the guy is destitute, filed for bankruptcy and the whole nine yards and the debt to you is settled, whether you like it or not, then that's it. It's over, you're out the money. It's called bankruptcy. If the guy goes on to later make tons of money, yeah, it sucks, but that's how it is. The alternative is the old way, Debter's Prison. The guy owes you money, he goes to prison until he pays the money. Would you rather it be that way? There has to be some system, people go bankrupt, sometimes through bad decisions, sometimes circumstances or sometimes that's just what happens. Fraud is another story all together, which is a crime. Someone commits fraud against you, well, you'll probably never see that money again but there'd be legal consequences. That has to be administered through the State, or I suppose you could go full vigilante justice if that floats your boat but there'd be consequences.

You're right about the legal tender laws and the creation of new money that gets pumped into a relatively static market. Whoever uses that money first gets the most value out of it. It's economics 101 and is a consequence of the fiat money system. So again, where is Bernie ever talking about going to sound money? The only politician who ever seriously talked about this issue was Ron Paul and we all know how he was treated. Bernie ain't no Ron Paul, not by a long shot.

Your business cycle problems, perhaps you should refer to Hayek, he had a lot to say about it. He and Keynes had a lot to talk about it. I think Keynes would be appalled at how his ideas have been so misused. It was Nixon who famously (or infamously if you prefer) declared "We are all Keynesians now" when he finally did away with the last bit of sound money left in the US and we went full Fiat back in 1971. You should look at the inflation charts pre 1971 and post 1971. You should check the money supply charts pre and post 1971. You'll see that is when this started. That's when it all started to go really shit. Check the disparity of wealth pre and post 1971. By every metric you use you'll see it was then, in 1971, that it started. When the US went full Fiat.

I'm with ya on the barriers new businesses and small business have to deal with against the big companies. Socialism isn't going to fix that. The money is the foundation upon which it all rests. Every single point you make all deals with money. Our current system, the same system virtually every single nation on the planet uses, the fiat currency system, is a rotten foundation. That's what everything is built on. What happens to your house if you build on a rotten foundation? The sucker collapses on you in the middle of the night and crushes you do death. Your socialism is built on the exact same foundation using the exact samey currency system.

In the case of socialism being the Robin Hood taking from the corrupt sheriff, that's Robin Hood and the Sheriff are the same person! And you think that's going to work? Ha! Give it a go, it'll end like it always does, badly.


Dude, the house is crumbling, ya wanna rebuild it. Start with the foundation first. A sound money. Socialism ain't got a chance of working with using sound money. You've got to make some really tough choice because the money supply is fixed, tagged to some tangible commodity that is not easily produced. You can't just print money, you have a finite supply of it and it can only go but so far. Socialism won't like that. Socialism needs a scam like fiat currency to work and it'll always end badly because, say it with me Duk,
Fiat Currencies are inherently unstable.
The average lifespan of a fiat currency is 27 years. The US dollar has had one hell of a run, the damn thing is now 46 years old or so.
Go ahead, Duk, google "average lifespan of a fiat currency" and tell me what you find. Check every source.
The most long lived fiat currency ever in the history of the world is the pound sterling, 323 years old or so making it the most successful fiat currency ever. That success is relative, it's lost 99.5% of it's value over that time.

The US dollar, a mere 47 years old has lost 97% of it's original value. C'mon man, everything, your labor, your time, it's all value expressed by these metrics, the fiat currency. This is why a family in 1970 could get by fine with one parent working and the other staying at home raising the children and making sure they are being raised right. Today the average family needs both parents working and are still struggling while their kids are being raised by who knows who. The family in 1970 needed the exact same stuff the family of today needs. A roof over their head, food, same bills to pay for the most part, clothes and maybe a little bit for entertainment, maybe a movie now and again, a night out on the town every so often.

With fiat currency all we get is bubbles bubbles bubbles that always have to bust. Bubbles are a lot harder to form using sound money because the money supply is finite. There is only so much to go around so no one thing can suck all the money into a bubble. In other words, choices have to be made, priorities have to be decided upon.
Fiat currency has advantages and disadvantage. You've listed a whole bunch of the disadvantages, but you should be able to see the advantages and why fiat currencies are so attractive to governments. They can make all their promises and just print up the money for them. Which leads to- Inflation. The hidden, insidious tax.
Sound money has advantages and disadvantage. You can see why the disadvantages are so unattractive to governments. It makes it tough to fund wars, intrigues and promises for votes. The advantages are favorable to the producer, the saver though.

I don't know why you'd think taking the money from the most corrupt, the banks, and redistributing it to the poor is gonna work when the banks will just create more money out of thin air through the fractional reserve banking system. The socialist can try and say "Well you can't do that anymore!" and lo and behold you hit the credit crunch and the socialist finds that he needs that fractional reserve banking to fund his redistributing.

It's a pickle, I'll give ya that! A pickle sitting right next to a big, shit sandwich. Which one ya wanna eat first?

Anyway, Duk, I like you. I don't always agree with you and as far as I'm concerned that's fine. You can disagree that I think Bernie is a hypocritical bullshit artist who peddles fairy tales to unsuspecting drones who don't know any better. But that's just what I think and I doubt you'll be able to change my mind on that. Only Bernie himself could do that, and this don't help much in that regard. I'd respect him more if he just stuck with reality instead of pandering to people's greed and envy. It doesn't matter what these frauds, these charlatans do, one need only take care of themselves and be wise about it and they'll do just fine in life. Make unwise choices, things tend to go badly when one does that. Each of us gotta figure all that out on our own though and we gotta make our way through life the best we can.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:44 am

waauw wrote:Only republitards thought he wasn't capitalist. Wake up, in the 21st century socialism=/=against capitalism.


You don't understand what those terms mean if you think it's possible to support both systems at the same time.

In practice pretty much every economy in the world employs a mixture of both, but if you're one of those ideologues who states things like 'I am an xxx' then you can't profess to be both a capitalist and a socialist. That's like saying 'I'm a Christian and a Hindu'.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:55 am

mookiemcgee wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
patches70 wrote:
I pity the poor bastard who is relying on a politician to swoop in and save them from the very abyss often self inflicted or caused by the State. Hey, if Bernie wanted people to make more money how about NOT taxing their income?
I don't want anyone robbing someone else to give me a pittance of the money stolen or even a single dime of such stolen money. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor is a romantic and morally reprehensible thing to do and it's from a freaking fairy tale. It's still stealing and not to mention trying to apply a fairy tale morality to reality isn't the best idea.

Have to stop you right there, cowboy, because you're riding down the wrong trail fast. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor may be morally reprehensible if you take the assumption that the rich are entitled to their money, but most of the rich stole their money from you to begin with, and there's nothing reprehensible about stealing back from a thief.

Let's start with the top of the list, the Limited Liability Corporation. Now, here's a scam that has been run for hundreds of years and is still accelerating. Corporations borrow a pile of money, sell a bunch of shoddy products, work their employees hard. For this, the officers and directors pay themselves huge bonuses. Then there's a downturn in the economy, company goes tits up. The creditors get ripped off, the customers get ripped off (because they're just now finding out how shit the product is, and the warranty is now worthless) and the employees get ripped off (they'll probably get their final paycheque after a bit of a delay, but they'll probably lose their pension, etc.) The officers and directors walk away with everything they looted from the place. Everybody loses except the authors of the scam. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Absent the state, if someone was unable to pay his debt to you, and you saw that he himself was destitute, you might be tempted to forgive the debt. But if you saw him collecting a five million dollar bonus during a quarter when the company was going down the toilet, if you saw him riding around in a Maserati and handing out diamonds to his mistresses, you probably wouldn't be so forgiving. But this is exactly the situation that the State forces you to accept.

Okay, that's the tip of the iceberg. Number two. Fiat currency and legal tender laws. This is several scams in one. The bankers inflate the currency, they pay themselves first. The inflation of the money supply leads to price inflation, but by then they've already spent the money. By the time you get it, prices are going up and your paycheque is worth less than it was when you contracted to work for that sum, but the important thing is that the people who made the bubble got to spend it and buy assets with the money before the prices went up. So, they bought things at yesterday's prices, but by the time the money works its way down the food chain you'll be buying things at tomorrow's prices.

Legal tender laws make it impossible to protect yourself from this scam. You have to accept the devaluing money, because the bankers control the government and the government says this is the coin of the realm, na na na na na na naaaa!

Then they play this pulsing with the fiat currency, which they call the business cycle, but actually should be called the scam cycle. They pump out shitloads of funny money and everybody thinks they're rich and runs out to buy a bunch of stuff they can't afford. Then the money supply is cut and suddenly everyone is declaring bankruptcy and the bankers pick up a lot of nice houses at firesale prices. Lather, rinse, repeat. With every cycle the bankers have a bit larger percentage of the nation's wealth, without really creating anything at all. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Okay, we all know the bankers are thieves, but certainly people that make honest products aren't, are they? Well, let's have a look at just some of these. Car manufacturers, let's say. The quarter-panel on your late-model car is a piece of extruded plastic that costs about five bucks to squeeze out of the plastic extrusion machine. Need to get one replaced? $1400. Now, I understand, everybody needs to make a living, supply chains cost money, etc., etc., but the process by which this $5 piece of plastic becomes a $1400 commodity has nothing to do with costs or supply chains and everything to do with bullshit patents. Hey, I'm all in favour of rewarding ingenuity and granting patents to inventors, but the patent on the quarter panel for your car has nothing to do with inventors. There's no tech there that we didn't already have 35 years ago. The quarter panel on your car is probably almost identical to another car like yours that was made a year earlier. Some little cosmetic change was made, and you probably don't even know what it is, but that little change allowed them to get a new design patent which means that aftermarket competitors won't be able to make that part for you. We're told competition will bring down the price of goods, but these bogus design patents exist precisely so no competition exists and the price never goes down. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

I suppose even with the patents, aftermarket manufacturers would fill the niche, through the black market if necessary. If people had to pay for those parts out-of-pocket, they would rebel and break the law and build secret manufacturing facilities of their own. But that kind of rebellion is prevented because nobody pays directly for those parts. They pay for them, oh yes! The dearly pay for them! But invisibly, through another little scam called mandatory liability insurance. Thus, everybody pays, a bit at a time, and don't even realize how badly they're getting screwed. And when the bill for the quarter-panel comes in, they say "well, I guess I paid for it already" and shrug their shoulders. Yes, they did pay for it already! But they would never have paid that amount if they had to hand over the cash at the time of the installation. The pain was spread out over many years, and it's already in the past. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Here's one of my favourite stories, from when I drove courier. The $22 pack of matches. Now, you can go into a store and get a pack of matches for 5 cents. Back then it was 2 cents. But one of our clients would pay me to go to the safety supply company and buy a pack of matches. The pack cost $12 and I charged them another $10 to deliver it, so $22 total. The pack of matches had the stamp of an engineer on it, and it was "guaranteed to produced smoke." Now, any fucking match will produce smoke -- if you got one that won't smoke, just bring it to me and I'll make it smoke. But these guys couldn't use an ordinary pack of matches from the corner store, because they were running a hotel, and their insurance company wouldn't renew their insurance policy unless they tested their smoke alarms with matches guaranteed to produce smoke. So somewhere out there is a clever engineer who takes 2 cent packs of matches, puts his stamp on them, and makes them into $22 packs of matches. He's got a license to print money; the insurance companies maintain his license, and in turn the government maintains theirs. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

Which brings us to the next scam -- barriers to entry and the university degree. The engineer is an engineer because he had parents who could afford to send him to a very expensive university and get him an engineering degree. Now, this is the Internet Age. All the knowlege to become and engineer is out there, free to anyone who wants to learn. But no matter how much knowledge you accumulate, it doesn't mean shit unless you get a piece of paper from a semi-monopolistic institution saying you're an engineer. That piece of paper will cost you (in my country) about $60,000 to procure and (in your country) quite possibly five times as much. Don't get me wrong -- I'm all in favour of high standards, but we could let people study on their own and bring them in for rigorous testing at the end to make sure they're not bullshitting, and we could probably maintain really high standards for a few hundred, not thousand, dollars. Licensing boards, universities, professional associations, are all part of a rigged system to make sure that high-paying jobs only go to those who already have a lot of money. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.

I could go on and on, but it's been an hour already and my fingers hurt.

Bottom line, the rich are not innocents. The laws are written to make sure the rich get richer. LLCs, fiat currency and all its derivatives, legal ternder laws, eminent domain (I didn't get into that one -- basically the process by which a developer can acquire "rights" by paying off a handful of politicians instead of a large number of homeowners), mandatory insurance, bloated patent and copyright laws, licensing and other barriers to entry -- these are all parts of a system that fucks you over regularly, constantly. Unless you're camping in the high Andes and eating grubs, you can't get away from all the perfectly legal ways the rich have to rob you.

Socialism isn't about robbing innocent bodies. Socialism is about Robin Hood taking from a very corrupt Sheriff of Nottingham.


*mic drop*

-Dukusaur has left the building


The audience mouths drop open.......seconds past by.....everyone stands up and starts clapping, then whistles and yelling of approval cascades through the cavernous arena.

Everyone starts chatting, DUK, DUK, DUK, DUK, DUK!
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby tzor on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:05 pm

patches70 wrote:Whoa now there cowboy. Bernie Sanders campaigned for increasing taxes on the 1%. Under Bernie's own plan, he'd of had to fork over 45% of that $1,000,000+ he made.


But Bernie's own plan hasn't been passed, has it? In anyway event, getting a ton of money and giving a significant amount of that ton to the government isn't "capitalism." Let's break this down in to simple terms "Capital" "ism"

Capital - wealth in the form of money or other assets owned by a person or organization or available or contributed for a particular purpose such as starting a company or investing.
ism - a distinctive practice, system, or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement.

So the book deal doesn't make Bernie a capitalist. It just gives him wealth. Now what's he going to do with it?
Does he "invest" it into a company (new or existing)?
Does he buy yet another vacation home?
Does he just give a chunk to the government and the rest to a political campaign?

Only the first option is "Capitalism" and only the first option makes one a "Capitalist."
The second option makes one "greedy."
The other options makes one "stupid."

Any questions?
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby tzor on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Have to stop you right there, cowboy, because you're riding down the wrong trail fast. Robbing from the rich to give to the poor may be morally reprehensible if you take the assumption that the rich are entitled to their money, but most of the rich stole their money from you to begin with, and there's nothing reprehensible about stealing back from a thief.


They stole the money from "ME?"
So I have the right to be a vigilante an steal it from them because I believe it was mine in the first place?
But what if someone else thinks I stole it from them?
(Help! I'm drowning in a sea of "allegations" here!)

You see the point? The argument that "they stole money from me" is an allegation on the person by you. It may or may not be true. That is a matter for the law to decide, not you, since you are biased towards your own side or may in fact be lying in order to give false pretenses to your theft.
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Re: Turns out, Bernie Sanders is a Capitalist after all

Postby tzor on Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:12 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Let's start with the top of the list, the Limited Liability Corporation. Now, here's a scam that has been run for hundreds of years and is still accelerating. Corporations borrow a pile of money, sell a bunch of shoddy products, work their employees hard. For this, the officers and directors pay themselves huge bonuses. Then there's a downturn in the economy, company goes tits up. The creditors get ripped off, the customers get ripped off (because they're just now finding out how shit the product is, and the warranty is now worthless) and the employees get ripped off (they'll probably get their final paycheque after a bit of a delay, but they'll probably lose their pension, etc.) The officers and directors walk away with everything they looted from the place. Everybody loses except the authors of the scam. This is legalized theft, and the right to steal in that manner is enforced by the power of the State.


OK Let's start off with the Limited Liability Corporation. What Are Owners Liable for in an LLC?
Under ordinary circumstances, only LLC assets are used to pay off business debts, and the members of the LLC will only lose money they have invested in the LLC. Members of an LLC can also be held liable for any debts of the LLC that they have personally guaranteed. Members can also be held personally liable for court judgments against the LLC if the member has personally and directly injured someone or caused financial loss in the course of business, or has knowingly done something illegal or reckless.


So let's take your example one step at a time. There is this company. It's making a profit, enough to pay the officers and directors, but somehow not the creditors? In short the creditors were getting the terms of their agreement or else they would be suing the LLC right then and there, not when the economy takes a downturn. Employees, meanwhile had better be paid according to the law, or it's a violation of the law. Payroll law is a bitch.

Now we come to your "shoddy products"

A common misconception of a limited liability company (LLC) or an Incorporated company is a business owner is protected from personal liability and liability insurance is not necessary. Regardless of your corporate structure, companies and corporate executives can be held liable:

•Personally you have injured someone

•You have acted in an irresponsible or illegal manner

•You do not operate your business as a separate entity


So LLC or no, you can be sued if your shoddy products warrant you being sued.

But there is "insurance" ...

Mind you, your example had a period of time before the economic downturn. Did no one notice the shoddy products before then? Who the hell was buying these shoddy products sight unseen? And indeed was the cause of the shoddy products the direct result of the initial investors of the LLC in the first place? (And what the hell is this with the guilty and unable to prove themselves innocent? Is this a Witch Trial? Apparently so, because you seem to want someone's property!)
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