UK Big Brother racism row

[Stopper]

Nah, reading back over that conversation, I'd say you knew you were being deliberately provocative, and as soon as I called you on it, you back-pedalled, pretending to wonder why I should find statements such as

What is not being South African got to do with the price of fish in China? Although my partner's family are from Africa, so don't shoot your mouth off before you know a person's full history.

provocative. I dunno, statements such as "shooting your mouth off" are generally accepted as confrontational in English-speaking countries everywhere, I think, especially when I'd said nothing to provoke it!

[debra79]

Furthermore, I don't give a flying f*ck where your partner's family comes from, and don't see why it's relevant.

You're the one who first brought up the South African topic, I was merely correcting your inaccuracy that I have no association to South Africa.

[debra79]

Dude, if you're going to get offended by the expression of other peoples' opinions, don't go into a thread that by it's very nature is bound to cause provocation.

[debra79]

And no, my post was never intended to provoke, and I'm certainly not backpedalling. I haven't retreated from my original opinion and I'm certainly not going to.

[Stopper]

I really don't care - I think I've made my point. Plus, there's an edit button if you realise you want to add something to a post.

[The1exile]

You're the one who first brought up the South African topic, I was merely correcting your inaccuracy that I have no association to South Africa.

Yes, but you used a term that is only inoffensive in SA.

[Guiscard]

Can racism be tolerated in any shape - even a joking manor? What would have happened if a black house mate used the word - is there a difference?

Racism cannot be tolerated. But that PC stuff has to stop.

If a black person said it, I doubt it would be treated the same.

They're not doing it to be PC. Any other time she'd have been cautioned and that would have been it. No love lost. Unfortunately, Channel 4 execs would have pretty much been forced to resign if they'd let it go this time. the last row brought them to the brink of it.

And if a black house mate had used the word? Probably nothing. But that doesn't matter to me overly. As far as I see it, the use of the word in the Black community is a matter for within their community. When used by white people it us categorically a racial slur, but coming from a black person the meaning can be varied. Perhaps I'd biased, coming from a deep interest in Hip-Hop... But then again, that maybe makes me more sensitive to the issue! A hell of a lot of the music I DJ uses the word... Does that make me a hypocrite? I know white rappers who use it as a generic term, and black rappers who refuse to use it altogether. Its an interesting and peculiar question which has very little to do with semantics and everything to do with context, in my opinion.

[debra79]

Yes, but you used a term that is only inoffensive in SA.

Are you deliberately ignorant? I was expressing my incredulity that people even use the term "coloured" to define a dark skinned person. And yes, SA may be the only Country that finds the term inoffensive, but it's not the only Country where people actually use it to refer to dark skinned people!

[Guiscard]

Transcript:

Emily: (referring to Charley dancing/pushing her hips forward) You pushing it out you nigger.
Nicky: (shocked laughter) Em, I can't believe you said that.
Charley: You are in trouble.
Emily: Don't make a big thing out of it then. I was joking.
Charley: I know you were? but that's some serious s**t, sorry.
Emily: Why?
Charley: Oh my god. I'm not even saying it.
Nicky: Just don't talk about it anymore.
Emily: I was joking
Charley: Do you know how many viewers would watch that?
Nicky: Okay, don't make a big deal out of it.
Charley: Fancy you saying that. I can't believe you said that.
Emily: Somebody has already used that word in this house.
Charley: No way. (Pause) Yeah, me. I'm a nigger.
Nicky laughs.
Charley: I am one. Fancy you saying it. I know maybe you see it in a rap song. Maybe you and your friends sit there saying it.
Emily: I'm friendly with plenty of black people.
Nicky: And you call them niggers?
Emily: Yeah and they call me niggers. They call me wiggers as well.
Nicky: I'm quite shocked.
Charley: I'm f*****g in shock.
Emily: It's not a big deal though is it?

In case anyone was interested.

[debra79]

Why should the word only be allowed to be used exclusively by dark skinned people? Context is context regardless of the colour of your skin.

[Guiscard]

Why should the word only be allowed to be used exclusively by dark skinned people? Context is context regardless of the colour of your skin.

You can call them black people, you know... They won't put you in a pot and eat you...

[debra79]

I don't refer to people as white, despite the common consensus, and the same goes for dark skinned people. I don't normally make the distinction between colour when talking about people, period. A person isn't defined by the colour of their skin.

They won't put you in a pot and eat you...

They might! I'm mighty tasty!

[Dancing Mustard]

Why should the word only be allowed to be used exclusively by dark skinned people? Context is context regardless of the colour of your skin.

You can call them black people, you know... They won't put you in a pot and eat you...

*Suppresses urge to troll this thread with racist gags about black people being cannibals*

[Stopper]

And if a black house mate had used the word? Probably nothing. But that doesn't matter to me overly. As far as I see it, the use of the word in the Black community is a matter for within their community. When used by white people it us categorically a racial slur, but coming from a black person the meaning can be varied. Perhaps I'd biased, coming from a deep interest in Hip-Hop... But then again, that maybe makes me more sensitive to the issue! A hell of a lot of the music I DJ uses the word... Does that make me a hypocrite?

I did have the feeling we'd disagree on this point.

I don't agree that terms can be acceptable within any one "community", but not in another. I don't see how that can possibly be conducive to social harmony at all, in the long term. I can see that putting up with it on a regular basis might be a matter of realpolitik, because I also do so, though from the opposite direction from you - but that doesn't mean it should be accepted in principle.

It's easy for educated white middle-class people to understand the history behind such terms, and to treat people who use such terms differently depending on their background, but working-class people don't see it the same way, and the fact remains that there's no good reason for them to.

[unriggable]

This is god damn stupid. What is this taboo bullshit about rappers being able to say it to eachother as much as they want and to whites as much as they want but not vice versa?

[Guiscard]

This is god damn stupid. What is this taboo bullshit about rappers being able to say it to eachother as much as they want and to whites as much as they want but not vice versa?

If I call my mate an ugly cunt its a joke or even a greeting, in a jovial way...

If I call someone I don't know an ugly cunt in a club I'll get bottled.

A lot of it is context.

That said, I really don't 100% agree with the massive use in hip-hop and black culture in general anyway. At one point it was very much about taking the term back from those who would use it in a derogatory way, but we've come to a point now where derivatives of black culture are so popular that the weight of the word has been entirely de-valued UNLESS it is used in a racist sense. The word in itself is still acutely racist. I would never say it, but I would categorically not have a problem with a black person I knew saying it to me. It IS all about context, in my opinion, and when the context is a white person to a black person it is wrong. There are 'less wrong' contexts, as it were.

[Bertros Bertros]

In my opinion the whole situation is ridiculous. I understand Channel 4 had no choice but its just plain stupid. Even if it was intended to cause offence since when has name calling been equivalent to prejudice? If the girl had red hair and she'd been called a Ginger would that have merited a media storm? What if the black girl had called the other Honky, would that have been ok? And whats all this 'N word' bollocks? Its not like its not a word we hear daily anyway, and not just from black people, why is it ok for Eminem to call someone nigger if its a word only for black people to reclaim, is it because he wears sweatbands maybe? And while there was some racial bullying going on against Shilpa Shetty, and whilst I would be the last person to defend the embarassment that is the Goodys there seemed to be a fair bit of class bullying going on from the other side, but thats Ok because the working class were never subjected to slavery? The whole situation is so blown out of proportion its laughable. How we are ever going to have a truly integrated and functional multi-racial society with this level of over senstivity to just a word is beyond me.

[Jenos Ridan]

I don't refer to people as white...

In my case, it would fit, beings that I'm blonde-haired and blue-eyed. Can't get much whiter than that (note indorsing pro-scandinavian/germanic anything here. Don't lynch me.)

[debra79]

Unless you're an albino (which you can't be, 'cause you didn't say you had red eyes ), I don't classify you as "white" Just me being pedantic

[flashleg8]

After seeing it last night, I can completely understand why they took her out immediately with no warnings etc. It was very uncomfortable viewing. I think Charlie (the black girl) raised a very valid point later, that you don't let a word like that "slip out" unless you are accustomed to using it. Clearly the girl was foolish and perhaps she was trying to some how fit in using "street" culture language, but its entirely inappropriate to use that kind of language to someone you've know for only 5 days!
Though Charlie (and Nicky the Asian girl) said they were not offended by the language, they clearly were as they were seen discussing its use on a number of occasions afterwards.

The thing that annoyed me the most about the whole episode was Emily's (the white girl) refusal to accept that she had done something wrong. She was given the opportunity by Big Brother to say some words before she was evicted, she spouted some drivel about missing them all etc, when she should clearly have issued an unequivocal apology to the viewers -regardless on whether or not she felt Charlie was offended. I bet you any money she'll be doing this today (after the press advisors get to her) but it clearly won't be from the heart.

[Bertros Bertros]

After seeing it last night, I can completely understand why they took her out immediately with no warnings etc. It was very uncomfortable viewing. I think Charlie (the black girl) raised a very valid point later, that you don't let a word like that "slip out" unless you are accustomed to using it. Clearly the girl was foolish and perhaps she was trying to some how fit in using "street" culture language, but its entirely inappropriate to use that kind of language to someone you've know for only 5 days!
Though Charlie (and Nicky the Asian girl) said they were not offended by the language, they clearly were as they were seen discussing its use on a number of occasions afterwards.

The thing that annoyed me the most about the whole episode was Emily's (the white girl) refusal to accept that she had done something wrong. She was given the opportunity by Big Brother to say some words before she was evicted, she spouted some drivel about missing them all etc, when she should clearly have issued an unequivocal apology to the viewers -regardless on whether or not she felt Charlie was offended. I bet you any money she'll be doing this today (after the press advisors get to her) but it clearly won't be from the heart.

Nonsense. They are discussing it not because the word itself, or its use, was offensive. They are discussing it because it is a talking point in our society, the same reason we are discussing it. This sort of argument just fuels the hype, in the words of the protaganist "Don't make a big deal out of it then".

I haven't seen anything of the show but no doubt this was all part of her game plan for getting famous off the back of BB. Its no good just to get in the show and be whacky these days, to really go down in trash TV history you have to stand out. Looks like it has worked.

[alex_white101]

people in the western world worry far too much about racism, in asia it is far more accepted people are different and y do u take offense just coz some1 calls u a name?

i mean here there are different wages for indonesians and malaysians no matter wat there qualifications, im not saying this is right but its the way things are, racism is meaningless and stems from peoples own insecurities.

its a word, everyone should get over it.

[AlgyTaylor]

No, casual ("joking") racism is no more acceptable than full on racism. End of story. IMO it doesn't matter who's mouth it came from or what colour their skin is, it's still quite unacceptable. Especially on a broadcast medium such as television.

As it happens, I don't call anyone who I know "white", "black", "asian" or whatever. I call them by their name if I know them, or if it's descriptive then "that bloke with dark skin" rather that "that black bloke". Not that I think anyone'd take offense to it, just made a concious decision some time back to emphasise that first & foremost the person you're referring to is just that - a person - regardless of skin colour/descent/sexuality/... now I don't really think about it, it's just natural to refer to people that way.

[Bertros Bertros]

No, casual ("joking") racism is no more acceptable than full on racism. End of story. IMO it doesn't matter who's mouth it came from or what colour their skin is, it's still quite unacceptable. Especially on a broadcast medium such as television.

As it happens, I don't call anyone who I know "white", "black", "asian" or whatever. I call them by their name if I know them, or if it's descriptive then "that bloke with dark skin" rather that "that black bloke". Not that I think anyone'd take offense to it, just made a concious decision some time back to emphasise that first & foremost the person you're referring to is just that - a person - regardless of skin colour/descent/sexuality/... now I don't really think about it, it's just natural to refer to people that way.

But doesn't this sort of pussy-footing around the terminology just indicate you are drawing a distinction, whether that be in an honourable manner or otherwise, you are still treating that person differently. Until we can stop drawing trivial distinctions, which means stopping being so hung up about being politically correct, the harder it will be to wipe out the less trivial distinctions which lead to genuine racial prejudice.

How far do you take this "no casual racism". Is it ok for me to call a Geordie a Geordie? Obviously it wouldn't be acceptable for me to overlook someone for a job because they have a beard (though I suspect this happens) but you wouldn't take offence at me calling someone "Beardie" would you?

[AlgyTaylor]

But doesn't this sort of pussy-footing around the terminology just indicate you are drawing a distinction, whether that be in an honourable manner or otherwise, you are still treating that person differently.

Well, IMO not really. I wouldn't force that particular view on anyone, it just seemed strange to use terminology that I felt wasn't in line with my own views on a matter. So I changed my grammatical presentation of it. I do that with most things, it's not specifically about this issue.

How far do you take this "no casual racism". Is it ok for me to call a Geordie a Geordie? Obviously it wouldn't be acceptable for me to overlook someone for a job because they have a beard (though I suspect this happens) but you wouldn't take offence at me calling someone "Beardie" would you?

I think probably the history of use behind the word has more to do with it than anything. I get what you're saying, but I just don't subscribe to the view that calling someone a Geordie is the same as calling them a Nigger.

I guess the difference is Geordie refers to people of a specific region, and so in reality is no different from calling them a Scot or a Belgian. In my book "Nigger" isn't the same whatsoever.