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Incompetence Trumps Terror

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Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:37 pm

Early this morning, 25 people were killed and many others wounded when terrorists bombed a church in Egypt.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/world/twenty+five+dead+wounded+after+bombing+near+cairo+coptic+church/12512896/story.html

Meanwhile in Nigeria, 160 died as a church collapsed, apparently not through any violent act but through ordinary carelessness by the builder.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nigerian-church-collapses-160-dead-says-hospital-director-1.3198591

The lesson is clear: Garden-variety stupidity and incompetence trumps terror.

Friedrich Schiller wrote:Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.

Robert J Hanlon wrote:Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.”
― Voltaire
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby cmbdiesel on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:11 am

In that particular instance anyway.....

But... isn't stupidity very near the base of terrorism as well?
Seriously, belief that strapping on a bunch of explosives and blowing up yourself and several dozen other folks in order to have an awesome afterlife.... doesn't really strike me as an activity of the mensa crowd...
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby BoganGod on Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:34 am

Terror is a function of intelligence and imagination. Those without either are hard to scare or terrorise. Those with nothing to lose, will act like it. I'm terrified of a fat american woman farting in an elevator. That is coloured middleclass privilege.

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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Symmetry on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:36 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Early this morning, 25 people were killed and many others wounded when terrorists bombed a church in Egypt.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/world/twenty+five+dead+wounded+after+bombing+near+cairo+coptic+church/12512896/story.html

Meanwhile in Nigeria, 160 died as a church collapsed, apparently not through any violent act but through ordinary carelessness by the builder.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nigerian-church-collapses-160-dead-says-hospital-director-1.3198591

The lesson is clear: Garden-variety stupidity and incompetence trumps terror.

Friedrich Schiller wrote:Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.

Robert J Hanlon wrote:Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


Not really, the attack in Egypt was malice, not an accident. A targeted attack, part of a wider campaign.

Comparing it to an accidental collapse of a church in another country is bizarre. The Egypt attack was malice.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Nymeria Stark on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:46 pm

cmbdiesel wrote:In that particular instance anyway.....

But... isn't stupidity very near the base of terrorism as well?
Seriously, belief that strapping on a bunch of explosives and blowing up yourself and several dozen other folks in order to have an awesome afterlife.... doesn't really strike me as an activity of the mensa crowd...


imagine the quran were the perfect word of god. could there be anything stupider than not suicide-bombing?
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Symmetry on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:57 pm

Nymeria Stark wrote:
cmbdiesel wrote:In that particular instance anyway.....

But... isn't stupidity very near the base of terrorism as well?
Seriously, belief that strapping on a bunch of explosives and blowing up yourself and several dozen other folks in order to have an awesome afterlife.... doesn't really strike me as an activity of the mensa crowd...


imagine the quran were the perfect word of god. could there be anything stupider than not suicide-bombing?


There'd be Islam as practiced by about a fifth of the population of Earth. Don't judge a religion by its extremists.

That's not stupid.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Nymeria Stark on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:14 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Nymeria Stark wrote:
cmbdiesel wrote:In that particular instance anyway.....

But... isn't stupidity very near the base of terrorism as well?
Seriously, belief that strapping on a bunch of explosives and blowing up yourself and several dozen other folks in order to have an awesome afterlife.... doesn't really strike me as an activity of the mensa crowd...


imagine the quran were the perfect word of god. could there be anything stupider than not suicide-bombing?


There'd be Islam as practiced by about a fifth of the population of Earth. Don't judge a religion by its extremists.

That's not stupid.


i'm not judging a religion by anything any people do. you are the one doing that.

i'm judging a book by what is written in that book.

can you give me a good reason for not suicide-bombing assuming the quran is the perfect word of god? it is the ethical thing to do and will land you and your loved ones a top position in heaven. given that is what jihadists believe, how are they not perfectly reasonable to behave the way they do?
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Symmetry on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:30 pm

Nymeria Stark wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Nymeria Stark wrote:
cmbdiesel wrote:In that particular instance anyway.....

But... isn't stupidity very near the base of terrorism as well?
Seriously, belief that strapping on a bunch of explosives and blowing up yourself and several dozen other folks in order to have an awesome afterlife.... doesn't really strike me as an activity of the mensa crowd...


imagine the quran were the perfect word of god. could there be anything stupider than not suicide-bombing?


There'd be Islam as practiced by about a fifth of the population of Earth. Don't judge a religion by its extremists.

That's not stupid.


i'm not judging a religion by anything any people do. you are the one doing that.

i'm judging a book by what is written in that book.

can you give me a good reason for not suicide-bombing assuming the quran is the perfect word of god? it is the ethical thing to do and will land you and your loved ones a top position in heaven. given that is what jihadists believe, how are they not perfectly reasonable to behave the way they do?


I'm making my judgement based on the people who follow that book. Good, decent folk. Overwhelmingly so. It's from experience talking to Muslims, living in communities, working with Muslims.

Have you ever considered visiting a Mosque? Chatting to Muslims in your community?

I think you have a fixed idea of a what Muslims' are, and my good reason would be for you to talk to Muslims and get a better understanding.

That's nothing too onerous I hope- talk to them to gain understanding.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Nymeria Stark on Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:28 pm

Symmetry wrote:I'm making my judgement based on the people who follow that book. Good, decent folk. Overwhelmingly so. It's from experience talking to Muslims, living in communities, working with Muslims.

Have you ever considered visiting a Mosque? Chatting to Muslims in your community?

I think you have a fixed idea of a what Muslims' are, and my good reason would be for you to talk to Muslims and get a better understanding.

That's nothing too onerous I hope- talk to them to gain understanding.



you are making ridiculous assumptions and trying to perceive bigotry where there is none. i volunteer in a refugee home where like 90% of the kids are from afghanistan and 2 of my 5 flatmates are super-religious muslims that claim to love mohammed more than their family. it was interest in their faith that led me to read the quran. a book i was given at the mosque i went to with my flatmate which was full of extremely friendly people who were delighted by my interest in their faith.

youve missed the point by a long shot twice now. i'll clarify for the last time, if you continue to not get it i consider our intellectual levels too different for a conversation to have any meaning.

im not judging musilms at all, im well aware most of them are good people (or at least no worse than the rest of humanity) and people should be judged based on their behaviour not beliefs. what im saying is if the quran were true, i dont see how anyone could claim terrorists are stupid. in my opinion they would be the only people behaving rationally. can you give me a reason for choosing to not do the most ethical thing possible that results in you and people of your choice receiving the biggest reward possible?
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Symmetry on Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:51 am

Nymeria Stark wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm making my judgement based on the people who follow that book. Good, decent folk. Overwhelmingly so. It's from experience talking to Muslims, living in communities, working with Muslims.

Have you ever considered visiting a Mosque? Chatting to Muslims in your community?

I think you have a fixed idea of a what Muslims' are, and my good reason would be for you to talk to Muslims and get a better understanding.

That's nothing too onerous I hope- talk to them to gain understanding.



you are making ridiculous assumptions and trying to perceive bigotry where there is none. i volunteer in a refugee home where like 90% of the kids are from afghanistan and 2 of my 5 flatmates are super-religious muslims that claim to love mohammed more than their family. it was interest in their faith that led me to read the quran. a book i was given at the mosque i went to with my flatmate which was full of extremely friendly people who were delighted by my interest in their faith.

youve missed the point by a long shot twice now. i'll clarify for the last time, if you continue to not get it i consider our intellectual levels too different for a conversation to have any meaning.

im not judging musilms at all, im well aware most of them are good people (or at least no worse than the rest of humanity) and people should be judged based on their behaviour not beliefs. what im saying is if the quran were true, i dont see how anyone could claim terrorists are stupid. in my opinion they would be the only people behaving rationally. can you give me a reason for choosing to not do the most ethical thing possible that results in you and people of your choice receiving the biggest reward possible?


Perhaps you'd be better off talking directly to some of the huge number of Muslims that you say you know about this. I'm a little baffled, given that you have flatmates who are, as you put it "super-religious", as to why you're asking an internet forum about a board game for reasons why Muslims might think suicide bombing is not OK.

Do you fear that they are going to kill you if you ask?

You sound like a poster who I used to talk with not long ago. He was pretty desperate to find a rational reason for irrational prejudice. I'm not sure if he ever came around to the idea of talking to people and having an honest conversation, but it does seem like the easiest solution for you.

So, perhaps, give it a try.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Nymeria Stark on Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:36 am

you must be trolling, i find it hard to believe anyone could be this prone to misunderstanding.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby 2dimes on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:38 am

Nymeria Stark wrote:you must be trolling, i find it hard to believe anyone could be this prone to misunderstanding.


Possibly, but he has convinced me he actually wants you to believe what people tell you the book says, instead of what you read.

I don't know if symmetry has read it and does not understand, or has never opened one. He certainly is an expert at making it appear, he has difficulty understanding most of what he reads here.

Therefore it's very possible he read the quoran and did not understand it either.

Scroll up here, he presumably read this thread then proceeded to explain, "terror is malice, you can't compare that to incompetence." Ignoring the fact dukasaur is only comparing volume of people harmed, not motive. Obviously dukasaur is never actually suggesting the two events had any connection or were competing outside this thread. Yet symmetry wants to try to stop dukasaur from doing a somewhat rediculas thing he thinks is happening. If he is not delusional he is spectacular at staying in character.

Sure it looks like he is trolling but it happens so often, much like his, "don't read, ask the imam.." routine, I am convinced he was actually trying to explain his concepts here.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:32 pm

He's CC's #1 troll Nymeria, I've been incouraged in the past not to feed him. I'd encourage you to do the same, however this is the trash can so if you want to engage I'm sure Symm would engage you in a lengthy debate riddled with open ended question.

Nymeria Stark wrote:you must be trolling, i find it hard to believe anyone could be this prone to misunderstanding.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Symmetry on Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:42 pm

To be fair, my advice regarding the question as to how can Muslims not rationally support suicide bombing was to talk to the Muslims Nymeria knows, and lives with.

That's not trolling. If it was a problem with a fuse box, and Nym had explained that she shared a flat with a couple of electricians, would "Ask the two expert electricians you live with" be an unreasonable response?
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:26 pm

Excellent example.

If Nym had to replace the fuse box, and had read the local code book for the area where the flat is, it stated, "Minimum size main panel for any dwelling is 100 amps."

Then your "two expert electricians" work out of town, they calculate the flat uses 57 amps, so they say "An 80 amp panel will be plenty big enough. That's what we'd install at work." are they right?
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Nymeria Stark on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:06 am

i don't get the incentive behind pretending to be stupider than one actually is.
Last edited by Nymeria Stark on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby riskllama on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:16 am

more trolling opportunities would be my guess.
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Re:

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:24 am

2dimes wrote:Excellent example.

If Nym had to replace the fuse box, and had read the local code book for the area where the flat is, it stated, "Minimum size main panel for any dwelling is 100 amps."

Then your "two expert electricians" work out of town, they calculate the flat uses 57 amps, so they say "An 80 amp panel will be plenty big enough. That's what we'd install at work." are they right?


Actually you would have to follow codes, local and state codes may state that all dwellings require a minimum 100 amp. Two expert electricians? Is that what they call themselves these days?

Aluminum wiring was allowed decades ago, but copper would not burn like aluminum. Aluminum wiring is outlawed in the U.S. Aluminum works, but it's unsafe and so is overloading an electrical system.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Nymeria Stark on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:28 am

for anyone else reading that may be interested... when asked, my flatmates both said something to the extent of "that's not in the quran." like most religious people i know, they believe there is a book dictated by an omniscient being but haven’t even read it fully. when i showed them a few passages, "that's not in the quran" changed to "you can't take that part seriously" and referred me to more ethical passages. i'm glad they (and most muslims) think like this, but to me it seems intellectually dishonest and logically inconsistent to claim to believe the book is the perfect word of god and then not take large parts of it seriously. this is why i think the jihadists are the rational ones given their beliefs. (beliefs i consider extremely irrational - this applies to all religions i'm aware of with the exception of some forms of buddhism.)

if anyone disagrees who isn't pretending to not comprehend english, i would love to hear your opinion on the subject.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:09 pm

It's human nature to think you remember what your pertinent book says.

It was the same way with building codes and union contracts when I worked in construction. I used to keep a copy of the Union contract in my pocket, so I could look things up if two people got into an argument, because everyone wants to believe, it says what they want it to say. You could get close but I never met anyone able to memorize even our tiny union contract.

Bernie Sanders wrote:Actually you would have to follow codes, local and state codes may state that all dwellings require a minimum 100 amp.

Sure you should install all electrical equipment according to the code for the location of the building, but they drive 3 miles to work in a large city one shire over where they still allow a minimum of 80 amps. They never read the code book after trade school, but everyone at work knows the engineers calculate the loads and they use a minimum 80 amp service.

The flat only uses 57 amps, it's unlikely to even need 70 amps, an 80 amp service is plenty big enough to be safe. The code book for Nym's jurisdiction is obviously over sizing it in case someone renovates a house and increases the electrical demand later.

It's like speed limits, they are sort of the law but hardly anyone drives that slow.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby patches70 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:46 pm

Jihadists are fighting a war, often against a better equipped, technically superior enemy. Using a a poor schmuck as a walking smart bomb makes military sense considering what they are up against. They don't have tomahawk missiles, laser guided smart bombs, satellite access, helicopters, air forces, etc etc. A lot of the things they do make a typical western civilian cringe but when you break it down to the core element, it's not much different than what we do ourselves.

Basic training in the military is for one purpose only. To strip the individualism from a civilian and replace it with a carbon unit that will follow the orders of it's superiors without question. I think it was in Band of Brothers where one of the recruits described it as making "each soldier accept his own death".
Arguments will go that basic training is necessary because in the heat of battle there isn't time to question orders. The problem with that is that most soldiers are never destined to ever see any battlefield and many never even leave the borders of the US, yet they all go through the same basic training.

For western cultures the incentive for joining the military service is usually financial. Most recruits don't join the service because they have an innate desire to kill other human beings. They join because they want to learn a useful trade, college assistance and etc with the main point a desire to better one's own condition, skill sets and lives, eventually often after serving.

Now contrast that with the culture that fosters Jihadists. Suppression, misery, destitution and indoctrinated since birth that the cause of their woes are that of the western powers ruled by Satanic influence. These are people with nothing left to lose and people with nothing left to lose are dangerous.
Imagine if your kids are starving, your wife is sick, there are no jobs, there is no opportunity. Someone comes to you offering a few thousand dollars, a fortune by your standards and an implicit promise to do right by your family if you'll strap a vest to yourself and hit a checkpoint, cafe or anything that you see for yourself as assets of an oppressor or even worse an invader and occupier.

The US can call ourselves "the good guys" all we want, but if our troops are within another country actively or just after aggression, then we are an invader and an occupier. That's just the reality of it, no matter what circumstances lead to that invasion and occupation. In our own country of the US, imagine if Mexico invaded and occupied us. We wouldn't stand for that as people, many of us wouldn't just give in and collaborate with our occupiers and many of us would fight against the occupiers with any means at our disposal including terror attacks at occupier assets and people. It wouldn't matter if those people were civilian contractors. We'd even target those of our own countrymen who collaborated with an occupying force, wouldn't we?

As Western nations occupy and interfere with more and more nations where Jihadists can and do thrive and the culture and social foundations favor the Jihadist, the Jihadists movements attract more personnel, money and technical savvy. They use this influx to train and launch counterattacks at the occupiers home countries. These attacks, due to the previously mentioned limitations of the Jihadists, remember they don't have air forces and such, leads to trucks being driven through crowds of fleeing Frenchmen, women and children, all valid targets from the POV of the Jihadists. After all, they've seen their women, children blown up by drone strikes.

The Western countries respond with more bombings and the cycle just keeps perpetuating itself.

When one focuses on the Qur'an and say "this is what gives these people the justification for what they do" misses the point. Take a large group of Christians, put them in the same circumstances as the people from whence the Jihadists recruit and you'll find that the Christians will act much the same way. Then the roles reverse, the Jihadists say "the Bible gives these people the justification for what they do".

The justification is war. The reasons for why the war is waged is irrelevant, the leaders tasked with waging that war will use whatever they have to to convince, prepare, transform civilians into soldiers. A soldier is a weapon. Western Basic Training the initial phase in that transformation of turning a green blooded civvy into a weapon of warfare that will follow orders blindly. If convincing that weapon that blowing himself up gets him into Heaven works, then by all means the leadership will use that to create more weapons because their job is to wage war against an enemy.

When people feel as though their back is against a wall and think they have nothing left to lose, they are more easily transformed into said weapons. After all, they have nothing and if the last thing they can do is strike back in at least some small measure at those who they perceive as an enemy responsible for taking everything from them, then why wouldn't they? It's not like you can appeal to the "you've got so much to live for!" argument to talk them down.

The US' current policy in fighting the Jihadists is so fucked up. It basically consists of flying a drone around in the sky for hour upon hours at a time looking for one guy. When that one guy is found the drone then fires a missile to kill that one guy and anyone else who happens to be nearby. This includes women, children, family members and innocent bystanders. Each of those people killed, including that "one guy" (even if he is a "bad guy") all have family. They all have mothers, fathers, sons and daughter none of which are going to take kindly to a drone blowing up their loved ones. With that one strike we take out one "terrorist" and end up creating ten more. That is an effort in futility and insanity.


But it's not just Muslims and the Qur'an who can be perverted and transformed into killing machines. Any human being can be so transformed given the proper prodding, circumstances and brainwashing.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby 2dimes on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:10 pm

Nymaria, is suggesting. There are too many religious people ignoring which ever book they claim to be important.

Christians not being willing to love even their enemies.

Jews wearing a cotton polyester blend, or not being ready to go back in time 2000+ years to sacrifice a partridge, in a temple that was torn down, because they accidentally sat on a menstral puddle on a bed.

Scientologists not going for treatments to achieve clear.

And finally those not being ready, to kill them not willing to pay the tribute, even to the last one.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby Symmetry on Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:33 pm

Nymeria Stark wrote:for anyone else reading that may be interested... when asked, my flatmates both said something to the extent of "that's not in the quran." like most religious people i know, they believe there is a book dictated by an omniscient being but haven’t even read it fully. when i showed them a few passages, "that's not in the quran" changed to "you can't take that part seriously" and referred me to more ethical passages. i'm glad they (and most muslims) think like this, but to me it seems intellectually dishonest and logically inconsistent to claim to believe the book is the perfect word of god and then not take large parts of it seriously. this is why i think the jihadists are the rational ones given their beliefs. (beliefs i consider extremely irrational - this applies to all religions i'm aware of with the exception of some forms of buddhism.)

if anyone disagrees who isn't pretending to not comprehend english, i would love to hear your opinion on the subject.


I'm glad that you saw my points were valid, took my advice and asked them. It seems like you understood my responses to your quandrary.

Christians believe that everything in the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, or else, even if it is in agreement with Christian teaching, it's apocrypha.

If you'd like a more direct answer to your question, there are basically two arguments- the first is that your asking for pure reason on a matter of faith. Faith is not entirely separate from reason, but neither is it identical. You're asking why a Muslim who takes some things on faith doesn't take everything that follows on reason. Your question in some ways answers itself- there's a mix of faith and reason inherent in the question.

So, linked to that is the second, more theological and religious question. If God is perfect, and the Quran, or the Bible, or whatever is perfect, what's wrong with the way that humans understand it and follow it? The answer is in human understanding. Humans are flawed, God is not. Any human understanding of what God wants is flawed.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby cmbdiesel on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:30 am

Nymeria Stark wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Nymeria Stark wrote:
cmbdiesel wrote:In that particular instance anyway.....

But... isn't stupidity very near the base of terrorism as well?
Seriously, belief that strapping on a bunch of explosives and blowing up yourself and several dozen other folks in order to have an awesome afterlife.... doesn't really strike me as an activity of the mensa crowd...


imagine the quran were the perfect word of god. could there be anything stupider than not suicide-bombing?


There'd be Islam as practiced by about a fifth of the population of Earth. Don't judge a religion by its extremists.

That's not stupid.


i'm not judging a religion by anything any people do. you are the one doing that.

i'm judging a book by what is written in that book.

can you give me a good reason for not suicide-bombing assuming the quran is the perfect word of god? it is the ethical thing to do and will land you and your loved ones a top position in heaven. given that is what jihadists believe, how are they not perfectly reasonable to behave the way they do?


You should probably read the book before you assume what's written in it...
There's a lot of awful stuff in the bible as well.
Cherry-picking certain passages and utilizing it as justification for killing is the methodology of terrorists who are not men of religion (despite what they or others may believe). They are men seeking power, and have utilized Islam as a convenient vehicle to further their own desires.

Both are, at their core, religions of peace. People who believe otherwise are allowing the terrorists to co-opt religion for their own benefit.
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Re: Incompetence Trumps Terror

Postby cmbdiesel on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:32 am

Symmetry wrote:Have you ever considered visiting a Mosque? Chatting to Muslims in your community?

I think you have a fixed idea of a what Muslims' are, and my good reason would be for you to talk to Muslims and get a better understanding.

That's nothing too onerous I hope- talk to them to gain understanding.



a muslim, a jew, a christian and an atheist walk into a coffee shop...

and they talk, laugh, drink coffee and become good friends. because thats what happens when you're not an asshole.
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