Castro- Hero or Villain?

[Symmetry]

Probably one of the most iconic figures of the 20th century. Now he's dead. Plenty of folk want to weigh in on his legacy, but what's your take?

[betiko]

equally good and bad for me. he'd probably be a hero had he died just after the revolution. The cuban society is very interesting, with all its vast flaws, there are a lot of things that should inspire other nations there.

[Bernie Sanders]

America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

[Dukasaur]

America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

Also, it's "should have" and not "should of".

About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Batista was a sadist who enjoyed killing and torturing his opponents. As bad as Castro's regime was, I think it was probably better than what might have happened if Batista had stayed in power.

[patches70]

Batista was a sadist who enjoyed killing and torturing his opponents. As bad as Castro's regime was, I think it was probably better than what might have happened if Batista had stayed in power.

No. Batista was a monster and it takes a monster to drive out another monster. The Cubans simply switched from one tyrant to another. Batista was in partnership with the mafia and the USG was supportive of Batista, I wonder what that says about our government...

Bern is correct in saying the US helped create Castro (likely not intentionally though). We tend to create a whole lot of monsters around the world, don't we? Instead of taking a minute to think "Hey, wait a minute, maybe we should rethink our policies" we instead at best say "whoops" and then use the new monster we created as a propaganda tool to justify further monster creations. It's a sad, sick circle IMO.

[Donelladan]

America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

You know that life expectancy in Cuba is higher than in US ? Ofc, if you fight the regime I guess it strongly lower your life expectancy there

About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Weird points. The "failure" of the economy in Cuba is mainly due to the fall of the URSS regime coupled with the US embargo.
People had lot of problem feeding themselves only after 1989 when the URSS fell.
Nowadays even with the "obsolete economic theories" Cuba is still doing better than most of South American country if we speak about feeding, educating and taking care of the health of their citizens. Which is imo, way more important than having a so-called good economy. Because what the point of having a good economy if the vast majority of the people in your country can't afford education or health care ?

Castro can be criticized, but I would more do it about the freedom of speech, the political prisoners, etc... , rather than about his economic choices, whose results can only be considered taking into account the US embargo...

[betiko]

i completely agree with Don.

[Donelladan]

i completely agree with Don.

Gonna mark this day ! So, Shall we agree for Melanchon as our next president now ?

[muy_thaiguy]

Well, asking the thousands upon thousands of Cuban exiles and their descendants...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/26/us/miami- ... -reaction/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/us/mi ... .html?_r=0

http://www.businessinsider.com/fidel-ca ... ng-2016-11

I get the feeling they weren't exactly fond of Fidel Castro.

[betiko]

i completely agree with Don.

Gonna mark this day ! So, Shall we agree for Melanchon as our next president now ?

don't push the boundries too far you communist!!

[betiko]

Well, asking the thousands upon thousands of Cuban exiles and their descendants...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/26/us/miami- ... -reaction/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/us/mi ... .html?_r=0

http://www.businessinsider.com/fidel-ca ... ng-2016-11

I get the feeling they weren't exactly fond of Fidel Castro.

exiles, yeah. if they left, they probably aren't the best to respond. talk to the people there if you ever. Of course they ae afraid to criticize the regime to foreigners, but you also see how the society works there, and it's far from being a living hell.

[tzor]

Well before I get to Castro, Batista sucked, but at lest he know how to make a fine tourist trap. (You mess with the tourists you die.)

I've lived in Key West Florida, so the history of Cuba that I know is basically that of the various emigration waves that took place. Given that I don't think Cuba really had a "happy time." The first wave was from the wonderful oversight of Spain. Now let's fast forward into the Oh My Way Back Machine ...

"In 1940, Cuba conducted free and fair national elections. Fulgencio Batista, endorsed by Communists, won the election."

"Rather than endorsing Batista's hand-picked successor Carlos Zayas, the Cuban people elected Ramón Grau San Martín in 1944."

"Grau's presidency was followed by that of Carlos Prío Socarrás, also elected democratically, but whose government was tainted by increasing corruption and violent incidents among political factions."

"Taking advantage of the opportunity, Batista, who was expected to win only a small minority of the 1952 presidential vote, seized power in an almost bloodless coup three months before the election was to take place. President Prío did nothing to stop the coup, and was forced to leave the island."

Upon his seizure of power, Batista inherited a country that was relatively prosperous for Latin America. Although a third of the population still lived in poverty, Cuba was one of the five most developed countries in the region (According to the figures of the government of Batista).[36] In the 1950s, Cuba's gross domestic product (GDP) per capita was roughly equal to that of Italy at the time, although Cuba's per-capita GDP was still only a sixth of that of the United States.[37] Moreover, although corruption and inequality were rife under Batista, Cuban industrial workers' wages rose significantly.[37] According to the International Labor Organization, the average industrial salary in Cuba was the world's eighth-highest in 1958, and the average agricultural wage was higher than some European nations. However, despite an array of positive indicators, in 1953, the average Cuban family only had an income of $6.00 a week, 15% to 20% of the labor force was chronically unemployed, and only a third of the homes had running water.[38]

But hey, he was originally endorsed by COMMUNISTS when he was elected to his first term.

I think you have to look at Castro from the relative perspective of Cuba's history in general. Here you can see good and horrid points throughout the entirety of the history of the island. I think only time will average the perceptions out and give us a true picture.

[Symmetry]

For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

That shouldn't be read as an argument pro-Castro, just something that seems a bit odd to me.

[riskllama]

ya gotta respect a guy who snubbed the US for 5 decades...

[Symmetry]

ya gotta respect a guy who snubbed the US for 5 decades...

I always had the impression that the US snubbed him, to be fair, but maybe it cuts both ways.

It's been kind of interesting to see him blamed for bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war though too. As if JFK and Khrushchev were just his puppets.

[mrswdk]

For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

[Dukasaur]

For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

It's not a coincidence, I don't think. The U.S. has plenty of other bases it could have used for its political prison. I think Gitmo was chosen largely because Castro's repressive regime provided a secondary security cordon around the prison. Ramstein AFB or Camp Zama would have been the site of daily protests by both civil libertarians anti-American activists, and would provide a network of lawyers and journalists to any escaped prisoners. Gitmo is unique in that neither lawyers nor journalists have much pull in Havana, and unofficial protests are not allowed.

[mrswdk]

For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

It's not a coincidence, I don't think. The U.S. has plenty of other bases it could have used for its political prison. I think Gitmo was chosen largely because Castro's repressive regime provided a secondary security cordon around the prison. Ramstein AFB or Camp Zama would have been the site of daily protests by both civil libertarians anti-American activists, and would provide a network of lawyers and journalists to any escaped prisoners. Gitmo is unique in that neither lawyers nor journalists have much pull in Havana, and unofficial protests are not allowed.

Given the link I posted elsewhere yesterday about how US journalists have willingly suppressed information that might embarrass the US Government, the fact that the US Government and its departments are immune from lawsuits under US law, and the fact that protests have to be sanctioned by the US Government before they can go ahead, that doesn't sound any different to the US. Given that the US is the Land of the Free, I guess we can conclude that Cubans also enjoy unprecedented political freedoms (^0^)

[Bernie Sanders]

America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

Also, it's "should have" and not "should of".

About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Batista was a sadist who enjoyed killing and torturing his opponents. As bad as Castro's regime was, I think it was probably better than what might have happened if Batista had stayed in power.

Also, it's "should have" and not "should of".

It's that the best you got Duk?

Oh, here's another doozy from your cranium:

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

Yep, let's all abandon our countries and seek the easy way out! FUK THAT SH!T, that ain't patriotism and these Cuban exiles are not patriots.

Just like these Syrians who are seeking asylum [especially those of fighting age] are not patriots, but merely refugees.

Seeking a better life outside of your own country does not mean you have every right to condemn the present regime, nope it gives you a right to declare your cowardice.

[Bernie Sanders]

For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

It's not a coincidence, I don't think. The U.S. has plenty of other bases it could have used for its political prison. I think Gitmo was chosen largely because Castro's repressive regime provided a secondary security cordon around the prison. Ramstein AFB or Camp Zama would have been the site of daily protests by both civil libertarians anti-American activists, and would provide a network of lawyers and journalists to any escaped prisoners. Gitmo is unique in that neither lawyers nor journalists have much pull in Havana, and unofficial protests are not allowed.

Given the link I posted elsewhere yesterday about how US journalists have willingly suppressed information that might embarrass the US Government, the fact that the US Government and its departments are immune from lawsuits under US law, and the fact that protests have to be sanctioned by the US Government before they can go ahead, that doesn't sound any different to the US. Given that the US is the Land of the Free, I guess we can conclude that Cubans also enjoy unprecedented political freedoms (^0^)

Mod Edit: (Razorvich)

[Symmetry]

Except, of course, it was the US media who broke the Abu Ghraib story. This whole "journalists are whores" thing that Duk and others have going seems a bit weird to me.

Yes, by all means, call out those who don't hold power to account, but to write off the profession, and in such a creepy way? No thanks.

[GoranZ]

America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

You know that life expectancy in Cuba is higher than in US ? Ofc, if you fight the regime I guess it strongly lower your life expectancy there

About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Weird points. The "failure" of the economy in Cuba is mainly due to the fall of the URSS regime coupled with the US embargo.
People had lot of problem feeding themselves only after 1989 when the URSS fell.
Nowadays even with the "obsolete economic theories" Cuba is still doing better than most of South American country if we speak about feeding, educating and taking care of the health of their citizens. Which is imo, way more important than having a so-called good economy. Because what the point of having a good economy if the vast majority of the people in your country can't afford education or health care ?

Castro can be criticized, but I would more do it about the freedom of speech, the political prisoners, etc... , rather than about his economic choices, whose results can only be considered taking into account the US embargo...

Nice sum up, too bad a lot of people are under an influence of US marketing propaganda of how bad Cuba is.

When it comes to healthcare, the whole world should adopt the Cuban model. The sooner, the better.
Cuba’s Health Care System: a Model for the World

[Bernie Sanders]

America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

You know that life expectancy in Cuba is higher than in US ? Ofc, if you fight the regime I guess it strongly lower your life expectancy there

About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Weird points. The "failure" of the economy in Cuba is mainly due to the fall of the URSS regime coupled with the US embargo.
People had lot of problem feeding themselves only after 1989 when the URSS fell.
Nowadays even with the "obsolete economic theories" Cuba is still doing better than most of South American country if we speak about feeding, educating and taking care of the health of their citizens. Which is imo, way more important than having a so-called good economy. Because what the point of having a good economy if the vast majority of the people in your country can't afford education or health care ?

Castro can be criticized, but I would more do it about the freedom of speech, the political prisoners, etc... , rather than about his economic choices, whose results can only be considered taking into account the US embargo...

Nice sum up, too bad a lot of people are under an influence of US marketing propaganda of how bad Cuba is.

When it comes to healthcare, the whole world should adopt the Cuban model. The sooner, the better.
Cuba’s Health Care System: a Model for the World

How's the Healthcare for the people in Macedonia?

[DoomYoshi]

I like how he trashed the company to make for cheap vacations.