North Carolina Bathroom Law

[saxitoxin]

I don't really understand the rationale for this law. What's the issue with someone who was born a man but is now a woman using the women's toilets? Are they worried that perverts will get sex changes in order to go and peek under the stalls in women's toilets or something?

That said I don't really care and feel like everyone (including transgender people) has bigger things to worry about than which bathroom a transgender person uses.

I haven't followed this that closely because I always use the women's restroom anyway simply because it's cleaner and they usually have a nice couch in there I can relax on and read some of my FAV mags. When someone else comes in I hiss at them and yell "GET OUT!" But I thought you didn't actually have to have a sex change, you just had to have a sense of affinity to a gender. So like this guy -



- could use the ladies powder room at the Metropolitan Opera if he felt like a woman inside. But I might be wrong?

In the film STARSHIP TROOPERS they had co-ed showers and all football was arena football. If it weren't for the giant insects, the world of STARSHIP TROOPERS is basically the best version of the future ever imagined.

[mrswdk]

I've come across unisex bathrooms in the UK. One of them had pedos literally hanging from the ceiling like spiders, but the others were fine.

[thegreekdog]

Hmm... this thread did not result in the consequences I intended. I was hoping one of our social conservative friends would join the discussion and explain why this law is so important. Perhaps that person would throw a Batman gif in for good measure.

[mrswdk]

Hasn't been a Batman gif in OT for a looooong time dude.

[tzor]

First, let me address some of your points, then I'll add a few points of my own.

(1) The amount of time and energy from a state government and the federal government is disgusting.

Agreed.

(2) I think transgender people should be able to use whatever restroom they want and a law prohibiting them from using whatever restroom they want, in addition to not being based in reality, is disgusting.

What is a transgender person? I'm being serious here, I'm not being flippant. I don't want a porn definition, "I know one when I see one." You have people who seriously think they are of another gender and go to great lengths to conform to that image. I know some of these people. This is a very small percentage of the population. While I may disagree with them in their pursuit of their desires, they are clearly not doing this as a form of voyeurism.

But if you don't define this right, you open the door (literally) to perverts.

((3) This is not an equal protection issue if we're talking transgender only.

I don't know about the "equal protection" angle. I don't agree with argument as stated, so the question is "protection from what?" The argument makes more sense in terms of bathrooms, given that most people (not perverts) do not look into other people's stalls and so the genitalia of the person in the stall isn't an issue. Locker rooms and other areas where public nudity is common could be a problem.

Separate, related note - We had co-ed bathrooms in my freshman year in college: stalls, urinals, sinks, showers, the whole deal. It never seemed to be a big deal.

Back in my day, we had separate floors for males / females in the Freshman dorms. I've heard mixed stories about co-ed bathrooms in my years since then. Never the less, co-ed bathrooms aren't designed in the same way as regular bathrooms, co-ed bathrooms are designed for a specific age group ... college students, as opposed to having children and adults.

(4) One of my favorite things was how businesses and celebrities started pulling out of North Carolina. That's the kind of stuff I like to see - the free market working the way it should.

The liberal boycott thing is somewhat silly. Can you imagine the economic damage to this nation if conservatives started doing the same thing?

...

Now to my own comments. The notion that gender be fixed to the birth certificate is flat out nonsense. It's stupid and it's overkill. On the other hand, just allowing anyone to go into any room is asking for disaster. Men and women do not have equal fears and anxieties. There is a reason why women have a "herd mentality" when going to the ladies room, even when that room is a single stall lockable door room as might be found on a railroad car. Hell, I don't think I have ever given a thought to a woman trying to take a peek at my privates in a dressing room.

This has the potential to be a war on "cis" women if done wrongly, as is common with liberal illogic. On the other hand, I don't want to discriminate real trans gendered people who just want to be left alone. The penalties for voyeurism should be extreme. The penalties for abuse should likewise be extreme.

One last thing on children. Men abuse boys, Women abuse girls, older boys abuse younger boys, older girls abuse younger girls. The "Abuse" angle is nonsense. But the potential for perverts means that we need some sort of protection. I have no sympathy for people who decide they feel "female" today and that's an insult to any trans gendered person.

[mrswdk]

(2) I think transgender people should be able to use whatever restroom they want and a law prohibiting them from using whatever restroom they want, in addition to not being based in reality, is disgusting.

What is a transgender person? I'm being serious here, I'm not being flippant. I don't want a porn definition, "I know one when I see one." You have people who seriously think they are of another gender and go to great lengths to conform to that image. I know some of these people. This is a very small percentage of the population. While I may disagree with them in their pursuit of their desires, they are clearly not doing this as a form of voyeurism.

But if you don't define this right, you open the door (literally) to perverts.

A transgender person is someone who has surgically changed from one gender to the other (by loppin' one off or stickin' one on). Self-identity doesn't come in to it, definition-wise. Bruce Jenner is transgender; your friends are not.

most people (not perverts) look into other people's stalls

Speak for yourself.

[patches70]

A transgender person is someone who has surgically changed from one gender to the other (by loppin' one off or stickin' one on). Self-identity doesn't come in to it, definition-wise. Bruce Jenner is transgender; your friends are not.

That is absolutely incorrect. Surgical enhancement is not a requirement for transgender. Transgender is simply are "people who experience a mismatch between their gender identity or gender expression, and their assigned sex."

Some transgenders pursue the surgical route but some do not wish to go the surgical route for financial or medical reasons. That doesn't make them any less transgender.

You mention Jenner, who has had cosmetic surgery but has not gone through any type of sex reassignment surgery at all. Jenner still has her penis. So by your own "definition" Jenner is not transgender though somehow you still think she is. Very confusing IMO. Probably because your definition is completely wrong. Jenner is transgender, but if you believe your own definition then you can't think she is. How do you reconcile paradox?

[tzor]

A transgender person is someone who has surgically changed from one gender to the other (by loppin' one off or stickin' one on). Self-identity doesn't come in to it, definition-wise. Bruce Jenner is transgender; your friends are not.

First of all, you don't know my friend. Second of all, I don't know if she has yet removed her penis, I never asked Cathryn and I have no intention of doing so.

Second of all, There are a lot of transgender men who are women who have gone through months and years of breast enlargement and have not gone through surgery to remove their lower parts. Are you insisting that they are not properly "trans" because they changed the wrong portion of the body first?

most people (not perverts) look into other people's stalls

Speak for yourself.

Thanks for spotting the omission of "DO NOT" into that line. I've fixed it.

... most people (not perverts) do not look into other people's stalls

[mrswdk]

Okay, so I confused 'transgender' with 'transsexual'. Mostly because I don't really care.

While I think the amount of fuss being made about this bill on both sides is ridiculous, I do think the 'perverts and rapists will start pretending they're transgender' line is non-sensical. Is the logic that rapists are going to try and plead transgender identity as a legal defense or something? Please.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I don't really understand the rationale for this law. What's the issue with someone who was born a man but is now a woman using the women's toilets? Are they worried that perverts will get sex changes in order to go and peek under the stalls in women's toilets or something?

That said I don't really care and feel like everyone (including transgender people) has bigger things to worry about than which bathroom a transgender person uses.

I haven't followed this that closely because I always use the women's restroom anyway simply because it's cleaner and they usually have a nice couch in there I can relax on and read some of my FAV mags. When someone else comes in I hiss at them and yell "GET OUT!" But I thought you didn't actually have to have a sex change, you just had to have a sense of affinity to a gender. So like this guy -



- could use the ladies powder room at the Metropolitan Opera if he felt like a woman inside. But I might be wrong?

In the film STARSHIP TROOPERS they had co-ed showers and all football was arena football. If it weren't for the giant insects, the world of STARSHIP TROOPERS is basically the best version of the future ever imagined.

You've never been in a women's restroom, then. They are always dirtier than the men's.

Men's-messier (trash on the floor, urine on floor)
Women's-filthier (shit everywhere, tampons and pads)

Also, the only good bug is a dead bug.

-TG

[thegreekdog]

Back in my day, we had separate floors for males / females in the Freshman dorms. I've heard mixed stories about co-ed bathrooms in my years since then. Never the less, co-ed bathrooms aren't designed in the same way as regular bathrooms, co-ed bathrooms are designed for a specific age group ... college students, as opposed to having children and adults.

First, I was a freshman in college in 1997, so we're not talking two years ago. Second, many colleges still have separate floors for males and females (or separate dorms... in fact, my college had a separate dorm for black students). Third, I have two sons and a daughter. If one of them has to go to the restroom in a restaurant, I will take him (or her) to the men's room to go. That's a long way of saying... what do you mean by "as opposed to having children and adults?"

The liberal boycott thing is somewhat silly. Can you imagine the economic damage to this nation if conservatives started doing the same thing?

It's up to the boycotters why they want to boycott. I love boycotts though... much more preferable to legislation or regulation.

But the potential for perverts means that we need some sort of protection.

Why isn't there a "potential for perverts" now? I don't get your argument (especially the "there is a reason women go to the restroom together"). You're assuming that perverts are prevented from going to the restroom of their choice because of the sign on the door.

The case of the transgender kid (and bear with me because I don't remember the details) basically had to do with some people being uncomfortable with him/her using the "opposite of his/her birth gender" bathroom. I understand that a woman may be uncomfortable with a man using a restroom, but why should a woman be uncomfortable with another woman (who happened to be a man when she was born)?

[tzor]

First, I was a freshman in college in 1997, so we're not talking two years ago.

And I was a freshman in college in 1980.

I swear 1997 was like ... the day before yesterday.

If one of them has to go to the restroom in a restaurant, I will take him (or her) to the men's room to go. That's a long way of saying... what do you mean by "as opposed to having children and adults?"

And you are supervising them when they are in there. Some parents aren't comfortable that way, bringing girls into the men's room. Sometimes kids go into restrooms unsupervised. Then there are locker room situations. We were discussing restrooms with shower facilities, if I recall correctly.

But the potential for perverts means that we need some sort of protection.

Why isn't there a "potential for perverts" now? I don't get your argument (especially the "there is a reason women go to the restroom together"). You're assuming that perverts are prevented from going to the restroom of their choice because of the sign on the door.

No, they know that if they enter the door, the women scream and they get in trouble. If they can legally enter the door, the burden of proof falls on the women who have to wait until they can catch the person in the act. You can't slip a cellphone under a changing door if you can't get near the changing door in the first place.

As it stands now, a man, clearly looking like a man, and dressed like a man, can just walk into the women's changing room and if the women say anything about it, they are the ones who are bigoted. In the past that would draw the attention of security. No they just claim they are "feeling like a woman" at that moment.

[mrswdk]

So a man walks into a bathroom full of women, and just starts shoving his phone under cubicle doors and snapping photos... and you don't think the women are capable of doing anything about it?

[mrswdk]

But the potential for perverts means that we need some sort of protection.

Why isn't there a "potential for perverts" now? I don't get your argument

Maybe you are just not as adept at spotting opportunities for sexual deviance as tzor.

[thegreekdog]

In the past that would draw the attention of security. No they just claim they are "feeling like a woman" at that moment.

Yeah, I don't think this is actually going to happen.

[mrswdk]

Shania Twain called it.

[Symmetry]

I don't really understand the rationale for this law. What's the issue with someone who was born a man but is now a woman using the women's toilets? Are they worried that perverts will get sex changes in order to go and peek under the stalls in women's toilets or something?

That said I don't really care and feel like everyone (including transgender people) has bigger things to worry about than which bathroom a transgender person uses.

I'd think that knowing where you could go to the bathroom is kinda a common thread in humanity.

[Dukasaur]

I think we already had a thread for it though.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, I've had about 1 hour of sleep the last 48 hours.

You may be right and I didn't bother to look.

However, more importantly, go to sleep.

Family emergency just now dying down. Still have some caffeine in my system to work out first.

Never heard of masturbation?

[tzor]

In the past that would draw the attention of security. No they just claim they are "feeling like a woman" at that moment.

Yeah, I don't think this is actually going to happen.

Is the "I don't think" key here, or rather, "I don't want to think."

Top Twenty-Five Stories Proving Target’s Pro-Transgender Bathroom Policy Is Dangerous to Women and Children

• Man Dressed as Woman Arrested for Spying Into Mall Bathroom Stall, Police Say
• Palmdale man arrested for videotaping in women’s bathroom
• Sexual predator jailed after claiming to be ‘transgender’ to assault women in shelter
• University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents
• Man accused of filming women in Smyrna park’s bathroom
• Fullerton man arrested on suspicion of filming people in a Chapman University bathroom
• Campbell man, a teacher, arrested for secretly recording people inside bathroom
• Colfax man arrested for allegedly filming women in bathrooms

There are some people who will use ANY EXCUSE to achieve their perverted ends.

[mrswdk]

In the past that would draw the attention of security. No they just claim they are "feeling like a woman" at that moment.

Yeah, I don't think this is actually going to happen.

Is the "I don't think" key here, or rather, "I don't want to think."

Top Twenty-Five Stories Proving Target’s Pro-Transgender Bathroom Policy Is Dangerous to Women and Children

• Man Dressed as Woman Arrested for Spying Into Mall Bathroom Stall, Police Say
• Palmdale man arrested for videotaping in women’s bathroom
• Sexual predator jailed after claiming to be ‘transgender’ to assault women in shelter
• University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents
• Man accused of filming women in Smyrna park’s bathroom
• Fullerton man arrested on suspicion of filming people in a Chapman University bathroom
• Campbell man, a teacher, arrested for secretly recording people inside bathroom
• Colfax man arrested for allegedly filming women in bathrooms

There are some people who will use ANY EXCUSE to achieve their perverted ends.

Only 2 of those 25 stories involve people taking advantage of unisex/transgender-friendly rules to gain access to women. The other 23 involve men spying on women-only bathrooms.

[Army of GOD]

a. conservatives are irrationally afraid of transgenders
b. this law is literally unenforceable unless everyone gets a genital check at the bathroom door


that said, I'm split on whether or not I am ok with the law or not. Hear me out: just because conservatives are illogical, I don't think we can throw out their fears as meaningless. Fears are inherently irrational. But why should the desires of transgenders to use whatever bathroom they want trump the fears of the morons? I don't know if they should.

I'm not trans, so I don't know how they feel about this at their core, but if someone said "AoG, you're only allowed to use the women's bathroom" I would say "fine, as long as I have somewhere to shit"


anyway, I find the seemingly paradoxical viewpoints of both sides pretty funny. Conservatives love freedom, except when it comes to gays and trans and bathrooms. Liberals love freedom of expression, yet are trying to squash free speech

[mrswdk]

that said, I'm split on whether or not I am ok with the law or not. Hear me out: just because conservatives are illogical, I don't think we can throw out their fears as meaningless. Fears are inherently irrational. But why should the desires of transgenders to use whatever bathroom they want trump the fears of the morons? I don't know if they should.

So you are arguing that irrational fear should trump freedom of self-expression?

I'm not trans, so I don't know how they feel about this at their core, but if someone said "AoG, you're only allowed to use the women's bathroom" I would say "fine, as long as I have somewhere to shit"

By extension of the same logic you could ask why blacks in the South got so worked up about segregation, because they still had their colored bathrooms and schools.

[thegreekdog]

So you are arguing that irrational fear should trump freedom of self-expression?

Sorry, I'm not following - what's the self-expression you're talking about?

By extension of the same logic you could ask why blacks in the South got so worked up about segregation, because they still had their colored bathrooms and schools.

Yes, and he's exactly right. The problem with separate but equal is that it wasn't actually equal. The question on this transgender thing is whether being required to use a bathroom corresponding to his/her gender at birth is the same thing as separate but equal relative to the racial issues.

[mrswdk]

So you are arguing that irrational fear should trump freedom of self-expression?

Sorry, I'm not following - what's the self-expression you're talking about?

Self-identity, whatever. People identifying as transgender.

By extension of the same logic you could ask why blacks in the South got so worked up about segregation, because they still had their colored bathrooms and schools.

Yes, and he's exactly right. The problem with separate but equal is that it wasn't actually equal. The question on this transgender thing is whether being required to use a bathroom corresponding to his/her gender at birth is the same thing as separate but equal relative to the racial issues.

Why would it be different?

[tzor]

SO you are saying that anyone can self identify as anything?

I identify myself as a TSA agent.

Time for a strip search, mrswdk.