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Trump, the moderate voice of the right

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Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:31 am

Ignore the hype. Trump is not the danger he is being painted as by the Establishment.

“When you’re dealing, and that’s what I am, I’m a dealer,” he told my colleague Jeremy Peters last week, “you don’t go in with plans. You go in with a certain flexibility. And you sort of wheel and deal.”

Instead of promoting his ideological purity, he notes that policy choices are circumstance-specific. For example, he’s not a priori opposed to single-payer health care. “It works in Canada,” he said at the first Republican presidential debate on Aug. 6. “It works incredibly well in Scotland.” Even in the United States, “it could have worked in a different age,” but it wouldn’t work very well right now, he said. So instead, he’d replace Obamacare with “something terrific,” which would take care of people who can’t afford health insurance.

Mr. Trump’s policy flexibility extends even to the core Republican issue of taxes. He has not proposed a tantalizingly low top income tax rate, like Rand Paul’s 14.5 percent or Ben Carson’s 10 percent. In fact, his vague tax position almost exactly copies Jeb Bush’s.

“You have to simplify this tax code,” Mr. Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday, “and from that point on you can maybe do something else, but before we do anything, simplify it, make it nice and easy for people to understand, and reduce taxes.” Compare this to what Mr. Bush said in May: “Simplifying the code, eliminating as many tax expenditures, tax deductions, tax credits as possible and lowering the rates has got to be a huge priority.”

The main way Mr. Trump stands out from the field on economic policy is leftward: While most Republicans favor free trade, Mr. Trump has called for much higher tariffs on imported goods to protect American industries from competition. He has also criticized his opponents for proposing cuts in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. “I’m gonna make us so rich you don’t have to do those things,” Mr. Trump said in April.

Mr. Trump’s moderation extends to social issues. He says he “absolutely” favors rape and incest exceptions to abortion bans, which Mr. Rubio and Scott Walker oppose. He attacked Mr. Bush for saying the government perhaps need not spend so much on women’s health.

And on foreign policy, Mr. Trump says he would “knock the hell out” of ISIS, but he also highlights his opposition since 2004 to the Iraq war, a year after it started.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/upsho ... lican.html
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby waauw on Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:41 am

Mrswdk, you're jurst pro-Trump because he's proposing to basically step on the toes of their Japanese and South-Korean allies.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:03 am

The way Trump would deal with Japan literally hadn't crossed my mind. I just welcome any candidate who puts the interests of voters in front of the interests of lobbyists.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:04 am

That said, I just Googled his remarks regarding Japan and am pleased to see him point out how unfair the US-Japan defense treaty is. Here's looking forward to the day that President Trump tells Japan to go stand on its own two (soon-to-be occupied by PRC) feet!
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby tzor on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:34 am

mrswdk wrote:Ignore the hype. Trump is not the danger he is being painted as by the Establishment.


Oddly enough I agree with you, the Establishment brush is hogwash. Trump is not the danger that they suggest. Trump is a different type of danger.

Since it probably would annoy the most people if I do this, I'll start off with something from Benito Mussolini, "He made the trains run on time."

Well, actually, he didn't.

Every time I see the hype of Trump I look back and I remember. I was in Trump Towers, not just once, but several times. Yes, at the start it was glorious but I didn't walk through it then. I walked through it when half the stores were empty, the shops were slowly going out of business. It was a beautiful whitewashed sepulcher but inside was just old bones.

Trump Steak
Trump Vodka
Trump Water
Trump Magazine
Trump Whatever

It's not a question of success / failure. It's a question of gold foil covered turds. Even his successes were mostly a result of a lot of government subsidy. We talk about the "establishment" but there are two sides of the coin. The officials that are bought by crony capitalists, and the crony capitalists who buy the officials. By his own admission he is the later. Will the leopard change his spots?

Now the Republican "Establishment" doesn't like Trump because he is not under their control. Love the money; hate the people. They see government as the eternal money train and they don't want anyone diverting that train to someone else's station. It's been making an express trip between the Republican Establishment and the Democratic Establishment Stations for decades. (And in the process, the Democrats actually accomplish things, awfully wrong of them to have their cake and eat it at the same time, but I digress ... )

So in the end, Trump won't make the trains go on time. He might make HIS train go on time, but that is another historical irony. Still everyone will insist that he did make the trains go on time, just as Obama used the fact that so many people outright quit looking for work to declare that his efforts decreased unemployment. (True fun filled fact. If everyone (save one person in order to avoid 0/0 fun) were to fall into a coma tomorrow, unemployment would be 0% because while no one would be employed, no one would be looking for work.)
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby waauw on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:41 am

mrswdk wrote:The way Trump would deal with Japan literally hadn't crossed my mind. I just welcome any candidate who puts the interests of voters in front of the interests of lobbyists.


He didn't put the students interests at Trump university first, nor did he put the small-time investors interests first for his Trump tower in Miami was it? What makes you think this guy is trustworthy?
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:51 am

tzor wrote:Trump Steak
Trump Vodka
Trump Water
Trump Magazine
Trump Whatever


His water was called 'Trump Ice'. I used a Trump Ice bottle for taking water to the gym for years. It had a little picture of Trump pouting in a suit on the front. I wish I still had that bottle.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:57 am

Re trustworthiness: I see no reason to doubt him any more than anyone else who's run for office. Bloomberg ran on an 'I'm so rich I can be truly independent' ticket and as far as I understand he did a pretty good job as mayor of NY. I see no reason to assume that Trump is looking to turn America into post-USSR Russia.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby tzor on Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:55 pm

mrswdk wrote:Bloomberg ran on an 'I'm so rich I can be truly independent' ticket and as far as I understand he did a pretty good job as mayor of NY.


Ha ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha.

I'm sorry, what did you say again?

I almost thought you said that Bloomberg did a "Pretty good job."
The man who made the "Big Gulp" illegal.
The man who removed all the Salt Shakers from NYC restaurants (and trans fats).

NYC homelessness soared under Mayor Bloomberg

Sorry, I thought you were serious there for a moment.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:34 pm

tzor wrote:I almost thought you said that Bloomberg did a "Pretty good job."
The man who made the "Big Gulp" illegal.


I mean, anyone who thinks it's okay to drink 2 liters of sugar in one sitting is the sort of person who probably already has a carer running half their life for them anyway.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby waauw on Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:17 pm

mrswdk wrote:
tzor wrote:I almost thought you said that Bloomberg did a "Pretty good job."
The man who made the "Big Gulp" illegal.


I mean, anyone who thinks it's okay to drink 2 liters of sugar in one sitting is the sort of person who probably already has a carer running half their life for them anyway.


'muricans
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby tzor on Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:30 pm

mrswdk wrote:I mean, anyone who thinks it's okay to drink 2 liters of sugar in one sitting is the sort of person who probably already has a carer running half their life for them anyway.


It's corn syrup. Sugar is far healthier. :twisted:

And who said they were going to drink it in one sitting? Or that only one person is going to drink it?

By the way, the same city also has "bottle service" ... that's right, you take a group and buy an entire bottle for the table. Tell me that a bottle of hard liqueur is better than a big gulp.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby riskllama on Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:30 pm

tzor, a bottle of hard liquor is waayyy better(and funner)for you than a big gulp. there, someone told you...
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:54 pm

Hate to admit this, but Tzor is right on!
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby notyou2 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:08 pm

tzor wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Ignore the hype. Trump is not the danger he is being painted as by the Establishment.


Oddly enough I agree with you, the Establishment brush is hogwash. Trump is not the danger that they suggest. Trump is a different type of danger.

Since it probably would annoy the most people if I do this, I'll start off with something from Benito Mussolini, "He made the trains run on time."

Well, actually, he didn't.

Every time I see the hype of Trump I look back and I remember. I was in Trump Towers, not just once, but several times. Yes, at the start it was glorious but I didn't walk through it then. I walked through it when half the stores were empty, the shops were slowly going out of business. It was a beautiful whitewashed sepulcher but inside was just old bones.

Trump Steak
Trump Vodka
Trump Water
Trump Magazine
Trump Whatever

It's not a question of success / failure. It's a question of gold foil covered turds. Even his successes were mostly a result of a lot of government subsidy. We talk about the "establishment" but there are two sides of the coin. The officials that are bought by crony capitalists, and the crony capitalists who buy the officials. By his own admission he is the later. Will the leopard change his spots?

Now the Republican "Establishment" doesn't like Trump because he is not under their control. Love the money; hate the people. They see government as the eternal money train and they don't want anyone diverting that train to someone else's station. It's been making an express trip between the Republican Establishment and the Democratic Establishment Stations for decades. (And in the process, the Democrats actually accomplish things, awfully wrong of them to have their cake and eat it at the same time, but I digress ... )

So in the end, Trump won't make the trains go on time. He might make HIS train go on time, but that is another historical irony. Still everyone will insist that he did make the trains go on time, just as Obama used the fact that so many people outright quit looking for work to declare that his efforts decreased unemployment. (True fun filled fact. If everyone (save one person in order to avoid 0/0 fun) were to fall into a coma tomorrow, unemployment would be 0% because while no one would be employed, no one would be looking for work.)


If you want change and to minimize influence of lobbyists and corporations, Bernie is the answer, not Trump.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby tzor on Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:40 pm

notyou2 wrote:If you want change and to minimize influence of lobbyists and corporations, Bernie is the answer, not Trump.


Bernie is not the answer against lobbyists. He is, possibly, the answer against the current lobbyists. Meet the new lobbyists; same as the old lobbyists.

Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

The only one who will end lobbyists is the one who simply ends spending. Fat chance for Trump; No chance for Sanders.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:24 pm

Secret Service ready to take a bullet for Trump!

Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby notyou2 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:26 pm

tzor wrote:
notyou2 wrote:If you want change and to minimize influence of lobbyists and corporations, Bernie is the answer, not Trump.


Bernie is not the answer against lobbyists. He is, possibly, the answer against the current lobbyists. Meet the new lobbyists; same as the old lobbyists.

Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

The only one who will end lobbyists is the one who simply ends spending. Fat chance for Trump; No chance for Sanders.


Show me where Bernie promised something for "free". He has always said where he will get the funding. You need to dig the shit out of your ears.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:30 pm

tzor wrote:
notyou2 wrote:If you want change and to minimize influence of lobbyists and corporations, Bernie is the answer, not Trump.


Bernie is not the answer against lobbyists. He is, possibly, the answer against the current lobbyists. Meet the new lobbyists; same as the old lobbyists.

Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

The only one who will end lobbyists is the one who simply ends spending. Fat chance for Trump; No chance for Sanders.



Bernie does not say all his plans are free. This is a Republican talking point. Bernie is the only candidate that threatens the fat cats and lobbyists.

Hillary and all the Republicans will continue the same old, same old politics.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby tzor on Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:44 am

notyou2 wrote:
tzor wrote:Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

Show me where Bernie promised something for "free". He has always said where he will get the funding. You need to dig the shit out of your ears.


College tuition for starters. And it doesn't matter where he gets the funding (really everything boils down to the working middle class) it still means a ton of money flowing through government channels which in turn will be directed as various interests who donate money into Washington DC desire it to be directed. In other words lobbyists. But it is a good attempt at misdirection.

You need to take the blinders off of your eyes because you are supplying the answers to completely different problems.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:53 am

tzor wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
tzor wrote:Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

Show me where Bernie promised something for "free". He has always said where he will get the funding. You need to dig the shit out of your ears.


College tuition for starters. And it doesn't matter where he gets the funding (really everything boils down to the working middle class) it still means a ton of money flowing through government channels which in turn will be directed as various interests who donate money into Washington DC desire it to be directed. In other words lobbyists. But it is a good attempt at misdirection.

You need to take the blinders off of your eyes because you are supplying the answers to completely different problems.




The Republican plan as usual is to give more tax cuts to the rich fat cats. Same as the did in the Reagan and Bush/Cheney administrations.

Republicans have been bought by the lobbyists that represent the rich fat cats.


Only Bernie can properly represent the working class of America.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:54 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:
tzor wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
tzor wrote:Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

Show me where Bernie promised something for "free". He has always said where he will get the funding. You need to dig the shit out of your ears.


College tuition for starters. And it doesn't matter where he gets the funding (really everything boils down to the working middle class) it still means a ton of money flowing through government channels which in turn will be directed as various interests who donate money into Washington DC desire it to be directed. In other words lobbyists. But it is a good attempt at misdirection.

You need to take the blinders off of your eyes because you are supplying the answers to completely different problems.




The Republican plan as usual is to give more tax cuts to the rich fat cats. Same as they did in the Reagan and Bush/Cheney administrations.

Republicans have been bought by the lobbyists that represent the rich fat cats.


Only Bernie can properly represent the working class of America.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby notyou2 on Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:57 am

tzor wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
tzor wrote:Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

Show me where Bernie promised something for "free". He has always said where he will get the funding. You need to dig the shit out of your ears.


College tuition for starters. And it doesn't matter where he gets the funding (really everything boils down to the working middle class) it still means a ton of money flowing through government channels which in turn will be directed as various interests who donate money into Washington DC desire it to be directed. In other words lobbyists. But it is a good attempt at misdirection.

You need to take the blinders off of your eyes because you are supplying the answers to completely different problems.


It is YOU that needs to open your eyes and mind.

The following is from here: https://berniesanders.com/issues/its-time-to-make-college-tuition-free-and-debt-free/
Here are the six steps that Bernie will take as President to make college debt free:

" MAKE TUITION FREE AT PUBLIC COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

This is not a radical idea. Last year, Germany eliminated tuition because they believed that charging students $1,300 per year was discouraging Germans from going to college. Next year, Chile will do the same. Finland, Norway, Sweden and many other countries around the world also offer free college to all of their citizens. If other countries can take this action, so can the United States of America.

In fact, it’s what many of our colleges and universities used to do. The University of California system offered free tuition at its schools until the 1980s. In 1965, average tuition at a four-year public university was just $243 and many of the best colleges – including the City University of New York – did not charge any tuition at all. The Sanders plan would make tuition free at public colleges and universities throughout the country.
STOP THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FROM MAKING A PROFIT ON STUDENT LOANS.

Over the next decade, it has been estimated that the federal government will make a profit of over $110 billion on student loan programs. This is morally wrong and it is bad economics. As President, Sen. Sanders will prevent the federal government from profiteering on the backs of college students and use this money instead to significantly lower student loan interest rates.
SUBSTANTIALLY CUT STUDENT LOAN INTEREST RATES.

Under the Sanders plan, the formula for setting student loan interest rates would go back to where it was in 2006. If this plan were in effect today, interest rates on undergraduate loans would drop from 4.29% to just 2.37%.
ALLOW AMERICANS TO REFINANCE STUDENT LOANS AT TODAY’S LOW INTEREST RATES.

It makes no sense that you can get an auto loan today with an interest rate of 2.5%, but millions of college graduates are forced to pay interest rates of 5-7% or more for decades. Under the Sanders plan, Americans would be able to refinance their student loans at today’s low interest rates.
ALLOW STUDENTS TO USE NEED-BASED FINANCIAL AID AND WORK STUDY PROGRAMS TO MAKE COLLEGE DEBT FREE.

The Sanders plan would require public colleges and universities to meet 100% of the financial needs of the lowest-income students. Low-income students would be able to use federal, state and college financial aid to cover room and board, books and living expenses. And Sanders would more than triple the federal work study program to build valuable career experience that will help them after they graduate.
FULLY PAID FOR BY IMPOSING A TAX ON WALL STREET SPECULATORS.

The cost of this $75 billion a year plan is fully paid for by imposing a tax of a fraction of a percent on Wall Street speculators who nearly destroyed the economy seven years ago. More than 1,000 economists have endorsed a tax on Wall Street speculation and today some 40 countries throughout the world have imposed a similar tax including Britain, Germany, France, Switzerland, and China. If the taxpayers of this country could bailout Wall Street in 2008, we can make public colleges and universities tuition free and debt free throughout the country. "
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby Symmetry on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:01 pm

tzor wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
tzor wrote:Every time he promises something for "free" someone has to be paid to supply it. The people who can supply it will lobby to get exclusive deals.

Show me where Bernie promised something for "free". He has always said where he will get the funding. You need to dig the shit out of your ears.


College tuition for starters. And it doesn't matter where he gets the funding (really everything boils down to the working middle class) it still means a ton of money flowing through government channels which in turn will be directed as various interests who donate money into Washington DC desire it to be directed. In other words lobbyists. But it is a good attempt at misdirection.

You need to take the blinders off of your eyes because you are supplying the answers to completely different problems.


I just assumed that college tuition in the US is a big con anyway. What is it now? About 40% never get a degree?

I've been an academic in the UK, and we have problems, but that is sick.
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Re: Trump, the moderate voice of the right

Postby tzor on Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:55 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:The Republican plan as usual is to give more tax cuts to the rich fat cats. Same as the did in the Reagan and Bush/Cheney administrations.


Well, first of all, I generally don't have any enthusiasm for "The Republican Plan" (whatever that might be). But there was a vast difference between the tax changes in the Reagan and the Bush (W) administration.

Still I applaud you for your attempt at misdirection. The original point still stands; the more money that flows through Mordor on the Potomac (sometimes called "Washington D.C.") the more people will lobby and bribe officials to direct that money in their way. Yes, even so called "tax reform" is just redirecting money if there is no significant attempt to limit spending.

Now let's get back to "free" education. If you want "free" education go to a monastery. (Well it's close to free, you probably still need room and board, but these guys aren't raking in the dough.) College professors, administration workers, staff members, and even graduate students have to be paid (and some actually deserve the pay they get) and SOMEONE has to pay for it. The "Rich" aren't paying for it (they pay for the sports teams because they want all the glitz of professional sports with the morality of college system). It's going to be the middle class. So it's not "free" ... you will pay for it, sooner or later.

What you need is a better "ROI" for college education. (Return on Investment) If you are going to pay $X for a specific job education then the institution had better show in advance how it is possible to use that degree to get a position that will allow you to repay that $X in a reasonable amount of time. A two year community college degree might not get you a major salary, but then again, the cost is far less.

You also need alternatives. Some people need to go to trade schools because they have the potential to be very good with skills. Some people may need to "work" first. (Yes, it was a very weird moment when I learned that a significant number of people who were entering my alma mata that they had first started their own companies first and then applied to the institute.) The school of architecture, for example, had a five year program, where you went for hour years, went to work one year with a company, and returned for your final year before you got your proper degree.
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