Bravo, China, Well played ...

[2dimes]

I hate you and notyou2 for making me stick up for the guy living with too many cats but..

Are you seriously saying you are unaware of the violence that has occurred from people insulting the prophet? You can't honestly be thinking tzor or anyone else is making that up to give Muslims a bad reputation.

Well ok, perhaps Symmetry is but notyou2?

[tzor]

Which Islamophobic website did you get your info from?

Which Muslim Taqiyya site did you get yours?

[Symmetry]

I hate you and notyou2 for making me stick up for the guy living with too many cats but..

Are you seriously saying you are unaware of the violence that has occurred from people insulting the prophet? You can't honestly be thinking tzor or anyone else is making that up to give Muslims a bad reputation.

Well ok, perhaps Symmetry is but notyou2?

Insult Jesus and a Muslim won't chop your head off. Insult Mohammad and they will.

You seriously consider that to be a perfectly reasonable statement? And that taking a position that it's irrational is somehow ignoring extremists?

I hope that you take a less paranoid view, or do you really believe that if you insult the Prophet, a sword-wielding Muslim bogeyman will come for your head?

[tzor]

I hope that you take a less paranoid view, or do you really believe that if you insult the Prophet, a sword-wielding Muslim bogeyman will come for your head?

Who said they chop your head off with a sword?

Really, what is the color of the sky in the world you live in?

And I'm not paranoid. The point is that if you insult Jesus you will not have a fatwa on your life. Insult Mohammad and you will. Islam does not place the two on equal footing. In Islamic countries, insulting Mohammad results in a death sentence. That is a fact. Facts are not paranoid; they are merely facts.

[Symmetry]

I hope that you take a less paranoid view, or do you really believe that if you insult the Prophet, a sword-wielding Muslim bogeyman will come for your head?

Who said they chop your head off with a sword?

Really, what is the color of the sky in the world you live in?

And I'm not paranoid. The point is that if you insult Jesus you will not have a fatwa on your life. Insult Mohammad and you will. Islam does not place the two on equal footing. In Islamic countries, insulting Mohammad results in a death sentence. That is a fact. Facts are not paranoid; they are merely facts.

I guess it's good that you've backed down on your point about beheading, and now merely think it's a fatwah. Still, you don't really know what a fatwah is, do you?

It's a religious judgement, not, as lazy islamophobic people think, a death sentence.

And it's not really a hierarchial thing. So, it's more like a legal opinion.

I get that this is unlikely to budge your opinion of Muslims, but, hey, I can try.

[2dimes]

What is the percentage that are "extremist"?

[Symmetry]

What is the percentage that are "extremist"?

By what count?

[waauw]

What is the percentage that are "extremist"?

By what count?

More importantly, by what definition of the word 'extremist'? Just the ones who blow themselves up or take up arms? Including the ones who support them? Including the ones who hold the same exact values(like religious persecution) except for the decision to take up arms?

[tzor]

Extremist is probably a bad word. "Actively Orthodox" would be a better term. There are many people who are at various levels of acceptance of the principle tenets of their faith. In Islam, the ones who accept the writings at their most fundamental level and put it into practice would be considered "extremist" by non Islamic people.

It is more complex when the fundamental belief is that dying in combat results in heavenly rewards. In one sense they are not more "extreme" than those who kill one person at a time, both live in complete submission and slavery to the one they call their God. (Emphasis on the word "slavery.")

[tzor]

I guess it's good that you've backed down on your point about beheading, and now merely think it's a fatwah. Still, you don't really know what a fatwah is, do you?

It's a religious judgement, not, as lazy islamophobic people think, a death sentence.

Yes, but most fatwahs about, say, bizarre sexual relations of believers, don't really count here, do they?

"Whoever Insults One of These Four Things, Whether in Jest or Sincerity, Has Become an Infidel and Must Be Killed"

It's a death sentence. Plain and simple. Here is a source

Imam Ishaq ibn Rahuwiya, a prominent imam, said, "Muslims are unanimous (in agreement) that anyone who insults Allah, or insults the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), or attacks anything which Allah Almighty has sent down, or kills a prophet of Almighty Allah; that he is an infidel, and that this is based on everything that Allah has sent down."

Muhammad bin Sahnun said: "Scholars are in unanimous (agreement) that whoever insults and disparages the Prophet (peace be upon him) is an infidel. Continually upon him is the threat of the punishment of Allah. The ruling on him for the Muslim community is execution. Whoever doubts his infidelity and punishment is (himself) an infidel."

Al-Khattabi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: "I don't know any Muslim who differs on the duty to kill him,"

The fatwas are very clear in this matter. Anyone who is determined to have insulted the Prophet gets a death sentence. Not "a" Prophet; "the" Prophet.

[notyou2]

I hate you and notyou2 for making me stick up for the guy living with too many cats but..

Are you seriously saying you are unaware of the violence that has occurred from people insulting the prophet? You can't honestly be thinking tzor or anyone else is making that up to give Muslims a bad reputation.

Well ok, perhaps Symmetry is but notyou2?

Those people are no more Muslim than the Westboro Baptist Church members are Christian. I am saying people doing these despicable things in the name of religion are simply wolves hiding in sheep clothing. Unfortunately a lot of sheep go along with them. Whether they are raping children or killing people it is wrong and people should not be supporting these fundamentalist whackos regardless of religion. Do you think it's OK for Isreali settlers to bulldoze Palestinian homes in territory that was negotiated to be Palestinian? Do you support the cover ups of the Catholic Church? Do you support a government that has oppressed a people so severely that the people stand up for themselves and are then labeled terrorists, so the government hunts them down?
If you do, you are as bad a tzor.

My understanding the Koran makes no references whatsoever to the paradise with virgins. It is the extreme clerics that are actively fomenting a holy war with the west and anyone that is not Muslim. I understand the Koran does not tell Muslims to kill non Muslims. I am unsure exactly what the Koran says about insulting Mohammad. However, it seems that is is the clerics misinterpreting the Koran that is causing most of the issues. The moderate clerics are drowned out by the noisy few, much like the what is happening in the US political arena.

So some dude that claims to be a good Christian that really knows nothing about the killing of some Muslims by the godless Chinese government and then says "Bravo" at the death of these people simply because he drinks the propaganda Kool-aid that China spews, yes I am going to call him a bigot as well as a non-Christian. He should be lamenting the loss of life, not cheering for it.

[tzor]

Those people are no more Muslim than the Westboro Baptist Church members are Christian.

Says who? You? Are you Muslim? Then shut up. (*)

I see other "Christians" condemning the Westboro Baptist Church and the actions of that church. Please show me the religious leaders who condemn the fatwas that state that those who insult the Prophet should be killed. These are religious leaders carrying out religious orders and they have been doing this for hundreds of years. It's the same argument that John Adams heard when he tried to negotiate with the Muslims in Tripoli. Don't give me this bullshit that these are somehow a few extremist people not following the tenets of their religion. They are only faithfully obeying the orders of the leaders of Islam.

By the way, as disgusting as they are (and I condemn them completely) Westboro Baptist Church members are not killing anyone. I'm just saying.

(*) If you are, why are you not strongly condemning them?

Do you support the cover ups of the Catholic Church?

Again, not the same. By the way I condemn both the coverup of the Catholic Church and the Coverup of the Democratic Party with regards to the former Rapist in Chief William Jefferson Clinton. I think a lot of people should be behind bars for this coverup, or at least not rolling in the dough.

My understanding the Koran makes no references whatsoever to the paradise with virgins.

Source

Whilst there are numerous sources, including the Qur'an, which tell us believing males will be rewarded with virgins, many who are concerned about the authenticity of the 72 virgins concept are under the misconception that there is only one weak (da`if) reference to the exact number of houri given to them. These narrations are in fact found in many hadith collections with varying levels of authenticity, ranging from hasan (good) to sahih (authentic).

For example, in the Sunan Ibn Majah, one of the six major Hadith collections,[31] it states in a hasan (good)[9] narration that every male admitted into Paradise will be given eternal erections and wed to 72 wives, all with libidinous sex organs.[10] Similarly in another hadith with multiple narrators that has been graded hasan (good), it states that the martyr (shahid) will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn.[32][33]

In the Sunan al-Tirmidhi, another of the six major Hadith collections,[31] it states that the smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode with seventy-two houri.[34] Note that this is not a "weak Hadith that has no Sanad (chain of narrators)", as some have claimed.[35] It has been graded hasan sahih gharib,[9] meaning this hadith is hasan since it has several chains of transmitters, it is sahih as the chains are all authentic and it is gharib in the words that Imam Tirmidhi narrated.[36]

Also reported in Sunan al-Kubra and Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and declared sahih (authentic)[9] by Ibn Abi Shayba, Ibn Hibban, and al-Hakim is the hadith that states the servant in Paradise will be married with seventy wives and that they'll be given the sexual strength for a hundred.[37]

Orthodox Muslim theologians have related further hadith that give us the exact number of 72, such as al-Ghazali who wrote, "[The Prophet said] the lowest rank of an inmate of Paradise will have eighty thousand servants and seventy two wives."[38]

Islam never became Protestant; "Sola Scriptura" isn't a element of Islam. This is important when looking at all the Hadith and their appropriate grades.

This is one of the problem of pseudo intellectuals; you can't always make everything the same. Communism, Monarchy, and Democracy are not the same. This is also true with religions. You can't throw the complaints you have of one religion upon the other, or the assumptions of one religion on another either. The various sects of Islam have some significant disagreements because of different collections of Hadith which supports their specific interpretations. That's why they kill themselves as much as they kill non Muslims.

[Symmetry]

I guess it's good that you've backed down on your point about beheading, and now merely think it's a fatwah. Still, you don't really know what a fatwah is, do you?

It's a religious judgement, not, as lazy islamophobic people think, a death sentence.

Yes, but most fatwahs about, say, bizarre sexual relations of believers, don't really count here, do they?

"Whoever Insults One of These Four Things, Whether in Jest or Sincerity, Has Become an Infidel and Must Be Killed"

It's a death sentence. Plain and simple. Here is a source

Imam Ishaq ibn Rahuwiya, a prominent imam, said, "Muslims are unanimous (in agreement) that anyone who insults Allah, or insults the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), or attacks anything which Allah Almighty has sent down, or kills a prophet of Almighty Allah; that he is an infidel, and that this is based on everything that Allah has sent down."

Muhammad bin Sahnun said: "Scholars are in unanimous (agreement) that whoever insults and disparages the Prophet (peace be upon him) is an infidel. Continually upon him is the threat of the punishment of Allah. The ruling on him for the Muslim community is execution. Whoever doubts his infidelity and punishment is (himself) an infidel."

Al-Khattabi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: "I don't know any Muslim who differs on the duty to kill him,"

The fatwas are very clear in this matter. Anyone who is determined to have insulted the Prophet gets a death sentence. Not "a" Prophet; "the" Prophet.

Sadly, as with Christian preachers and lawyers, you can cherry-pick Imams to support your opinion.

There's no hierarchy though, so it's not like one Imam's judgement suddenly becomes law for all Muslims.

I appreciate that this is a difficult concept for you to get your head around, but you've shown willingness to accept that your understanding of Islam is deeply flawed.

Notyou2 has some excellent points, and I'm glad that you're engaging with him too

Have you considered visiting a mosque in your area? Chatting to believers in your local community might help you understand them. Plus there's often samosas.

[2dimes]

I am much worse than tzor. My comment had nothing to do with china and very little to do with him. It was a reaction to two things.

First, this is silly.

Oh, by the way Tzor, Muslims also believe in Jesus, he is a prophet to them just like Mohammad you closed minded moron.

You can imagine what you like about that. It is kind of like me saying, "notyou2 is equal to Scuba Steve, they are the best divers I have seen." Even if I were sincere about it, what does it mean?

But more importantly, because you guys are pretending to believe you could go to a place with Sharia law, insult Mohammed and return unscathed. There are places where you cannot even draw a regular picture of him.

I won't bother debating the Westburo comparison. I will just concede that a group of less than a hundred insane people, mostly family, that make little signs lying about what god thinks, are just as harmful, maybe even several times more harmful, than the larger number of muslim folks circumcising women, chopping off peoples heads, whipping people...

[2dimes]

What is the percentage that are "extremist"?

By what count?

Exactly.

[notyou2]

Some countries and/or civilizations are more advanced than others. What was acceptable 100 years ago in western society is not necessarily acceptable today. Take homosexuality for instance. The consensual western viewpoint has changed drastically in a very short period of time.

It is the same with these religious fucktards. If you think I am going to go to a non-secular country with archaic laws and criticize their religion and prophets, you're nuts. Eventually the sane moderates will rise above the vocal extremists, but it will take time. Education is the key. Things don't change over night, but we shouldn't be antagonizing them either. But most of all, we shouldn't be tarring all of them with the same brush. That's like saying reverend Martin Luther King is a despicable evil despot because reverend Jim Baker conned people out of money. I fail to understand why you don't see this. The Christian church teaches many things about judging others, turn the other cheek, forgiving others, yet tzor throws all this out the window and literally hates over a billion people on this planet simply for their religious choice. Furthermore he literally cheers at the death of religiously persecuted people. I am pretty sure the Pope doesn't hate all Muslims. For this I say he is hypocrite and not really a Christian, so he should stop claiming to be one, or SHUT THE f*ck UP. If you agree with him, then you are a hypocrite too 2dimes.

[notyou2]

I am much worse than tzor. My comment had nothing to do with china and very little to do with him. It was a reaction to two things.

First, this is silly.

Oh, by the way Tzor, Muslims also believe in Jesus, he is a prophet to them just like Mohammad you closed minded moron.

You can imagine what you like about that. It is kind of like me saying, "notyou2 is equal to Scuba Steve, they are the best divers I have seen." Even if I were sincere about it, what does it mean?

But more importantly, because you guys are pretending to believe you could go to a place with Sharia law, insult Mohammed and return unscathed. There are places where you cannot even draw a regular picture of him.

I won't bother debating the Westburo comparison. I will just concede that a group of less than a hundred insane people, mostly family, that make little signs lying about what god thinks, are just as harmful, maybe even several times more harmful, than the larger number of muslim folks circumcising women, chopping off peoples heads, whipping people...

I was talking about Christianity, Judaism and Islam all stemming from the same Abrahamic God. My point is valid and stands.

[mrswdk]

Countries which regulate morality:
Iran
Saudi Arabia
USA

Countries which promote the atheist values of tolerance and moral freedom:
Europe
China
Australia

[notyou2]

Countries which regulate morality:
Iran
Saudi Arabia
USA

Countries which promote the atheist values of tolerance and moral freedom:
Europe
China
Australia

Sources or proof?

[mrswdk]

This thread.

[mrswdk]

Don't worry boss, people generally group Canada more with places like Europe than with USA. You're part of the second list.

[tzor]

I was talking about Christianity, Judaism and Islam all stemming from the same Abrahamic God. My point is valid and stands.

But they do not, they only appear to because someone stole the holy texts of the other.
The God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Moses has a name ...
It is not the same as the God of Islam, which oddly enough sounds like a Persian Moon God.

[waauw]

Countries which regulate morality:
Iran
Saudi Arabia
USA

Countries which promote the atheist values of tolerance and moral freedom:
Europe
China
Australia

Ehm, since when have there been such a thing as "atheist values"? Did someone forget to pass me the memo?

[2dimes]

Of course I am a hypocrite but that does not mean I agree with tzor, I just have no problem with the truth.

It is the same with these religious fucktards. If you think I am going to go to a non-secular country with archaic laws and criticize their religion and prophets, you're nuts.

Why? You claim it is only a small fringe of despicable yet harmless cowards that should not be compared to the true believers that are the problem. Or are you ready to admit there is a large amount of very actively violent people in many muslim countries? Admit it, you know there are places you would be killed before you got an interpreter to twist your words.

Of course Fred Phelps and Jimmy Baker are failing to do the right thing. Give me a ride, get out your favorite video camera and I would happily slap one of them in the face and tell them, "You should be ashamed of yourself." for you.

Wanna try that move with an Imam? When is the last time you dropped in to a mosque for Samosas holding Symmetry's hand?

I was talking about Christianity, Judaism and Islam all stemming from the same Abrahamic God. My point is valid and stands.

That is not true. Do not take my word for it. Go to a Mosque and tell anyone there that. Ask them why they can't get along with the Jews since they share the same god. I double dog dare you!

Go to a synagog and mention to someone there, something about how they are just having a family feud in Palestine. See how they react.

Pro tip: go to the synagog first so you don't need any recovery time before going to the other place. I did it in Australia years ago, when I mistakenly was thinking they were closer than they are, the Jewish lady was too offended to respond properly.

[tzor]

Ehm, since when have there been such a thing as "atheist values"? Did someone forget to pass me the memo?

Perhaps it was meant to be "Vulcan values" since Vulcans are atheists.

It's ok for Vulcans not to believe in God. God doesn't believe in Vulcans. And let's not have an M&M's and Santa Claus moment; it could destroy the universe.