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Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

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Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:59 pm

I've started to get into the habit of looking at (and yes, praying) the Liturgy of the Hours in preparation for Lent. The morning prayer reading caught my eye; Paul laying down the line. Pay attention Bernie!

Do not let anyone have any food if he refuses to do any work. Now we hear that there are some of you who are living in idleness, doing no work themselves but interfering with everyone else’s. In the Lord Jesus Christ, we order and call on people of this kind to go on quietly working and earning the food that they eat. My brothers, never grow tired of doing what is right.


That's right, you over there, the one who is doing no work yourself. Stop interfering with everyone else's work! Work and earn the food you eat. Or as Andrew says.

Earn what you own.
Own what you earn.

You got that Bernie?
Apparently not. :twisted:
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:19 pm

Are you saying poor people don't work?

You Tzor, are a rabid Corporate groupie. Calling all those under your economic class as lazy or takers, is what Romney tried pulling in the last election.

Shame on you for twisting The Lord's words for political change.

Listen closely Tzor and repent.

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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:59 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:Are you saying poor people don't work?


Nice try at deflection. I'm saying the best way to feed people is to give them work. Obviously those who cannot work is an exception, although these days, "work" is such a flexible term. Even then a hand up is better than a hand out. Nothing about corporations whatsoever.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:09 pm

tzor wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:Are you saying poor people don't work?


Nice try at deflection. I'm saying the best way to feed people is to give them work. Obviously those who cannot work is an exception, although these days, "work" is such a flexible term. Even then a hand up is better than a hand out. Nothing about corporations whatsoever.


We need to raise wages and that ain't going to happen until we tighten up the job market more.

The government can raise the minimum wage and spend more on infrastructure improvements throughout America.

We also have a problem with people who are capable of working and want to work, but have a felony stamped on them, which prevents them from being hired.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:51 pm

Ha! According to your logic all the government has to do is pass a law saying that all workers have to be paid a minimum of $30 or so an hour, wait, why stop at $30? Why not 50, or a 100 or whatever you want? Then we just print a trillion(s) dollars and go ahead and throw that straight toward Infrastructure and viola! Everyone is happy.

Once again Bernie the CC'er, much like your idol the real Bernie Sanders you prove yourself to be economically inept.

At least I can safely say that at least the real Bernie Sanders' heart is in the right place, God bless the ignorant fool. You on the other hand are a misogynistic troll.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:54 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:We need to raise wages and that ain't going to happen until we tighten up the job market more.


Raising minimum wage only lowers employment. Fewer people get more money.

Wages are not the problem. The problem is the cost of everything which, for the most part, is driven by government regulation and multiple layers of government taxation.

Think about this for a moment. FDR saw people unemployed and he created jobs programs that hired people. President Obama saw people unemployed and then later admitted that there were no "shovel ready jobs." What happened between then and now that allowed the former to build all sorts of odd things (an aquarium in Key West, a food stand on the Palisades Parkway) and the later not even to get regular roadwork done? It is the massive increase in government overhead and regulations.

I posted a much larger post in another forum. I think I'll post it here. :twisted:
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:56 pm

Do not let anyone have any food if he refuses to do any work. Now we hear that there are some of you who are living in idleness, doing no work themselves but interfering with everyone else’s. In the Lord Jesus Christ, we order and call on people of this kind to go on quietly working and earning the food that they eat. My brothers, never grow tired of doing what is right.


Now ā€œworkā€ is a complex and interesting subject in and of itself. So I will provide a ā€œcounter argumentā€ which is not really a counter argument. But that requires a lot of thought. It’s time for me to don my Knights of Columbus ā€œchapeau.ā€

"Everyone Welcome, Everything Free" was the motto of the Knights of Columbus clubhouses which sprung up in Doughboy training camps, in major U.S. cities and wherever a Doughboy could be found. Manned by K of C secretaries who were affectionately known as "Caseys" the clubhouses provided recreation and a few of the amenities of home to any serviceman regardless of race or religion. And to Catholic servicemen they provided Chaplains and place to practice their faith. The Knights were one of the youngest volunteer organizations drawn into support to the AEF. They had been founded October 2, 1881 when a small group of men met in the basement of St. Mary's Church on Hillhouse Avenue in New Haven, Connecticut. Called together by their parish priest, Father Michael J. McGivney, these men formed a fraternal society that would one day become the world's largest Catholic family fraternal service organization. They vowed to be defenders of their country and their families and their Faith. These men were bound together by the ideal of Christopher Columbus, the discoverer of the Americas, the one whose hand brought the Holy Faith to this New World. They called themselves Knights of Columbus.
During World War I, Supreme Knight James A. Flaherty proposed to U.S. President Woodrow Wilson that the Order establish soldiers' welfare centers in the U.S. and abroad. The Order raised more than $14 million for this program on its own, and was allocated another $30 million from a national fund drive. The pioneer work was done by half a dozen Knights of Columbus chaplains whoreached France in October 1917 and combined with their priestly duties the activities of Knights of Columbus secretaries. They were given a sum of money and one of them started the first Knights of Columbus club in France, at St-Nazaire, then the principal debarkation port of the AEF. A survey was made and the first group of secretaries arrived in March 1918. They set up headquarters at 16 Place de la Madeleine, Paris, and from that center the activities of the Knights radiated all over France, through England and Scotland, touching on Ireland and Italy, and following the Army of Occupation into Germany.

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But of course these men were working; in service to their country.

So let’s continue the notion of charity and move past the Great War. SOURCE

It is certainly true that churches and other faith-based charities played a larger role in the past than they do today, in particular compared to the size of the government. In 1926, congregations spent over $150 million on projects other than church maintenance and upkeep (Bureau of the Census, 1930). That same year state governments spent $23 million and local governments spent $37 million on programs the Census Bureau identified as charitable in nature, and relief spending undertaken by the Federal government was negligible. Yet church charitable activity fell dramatically starting in the early 1930s, at the same time that the role of the government grew through the New Deal. This raises the central question of whether the growth in government social service provision ā€œcrowded-outā€ charitable activity by churches.

Here is another SOURCE

A federal welfare system was a radical break from the past. Americans had always prided themselves on having a strong sense of individualism and self-reliance. Many believed that those who couldn't take care of themselves were to blame for their own misfortunes. During the 19th century, local and state governments as well as charities established institutions such as poorhouses and orphanages for destitute individuals and families. Conditions in these institutions were often deliberately harsh so that only the truly desperate would apply.

Local governments (usually counties) also provided relief in the form of food, fuel, and sometimes cash to poor residents. Those capable were required to work for the town or county, often at hard labor such as chopping wood and maintaining roads. But most on general relief were poor dependent persons not capable of working: widows, children, the elderly, and the disabled.

Local officials decided who went to the poorhouse or orphanage and who would receive relief at home. Cash relief to the poor depended on local property taxes, which were limited. Also, not only did a general prejudice exist against the poor on relief, but local officials commonly discriminated against individuals applying for aid because of their race, nationality, or religion. Single mothers often found themselves in an impossible situation. If they applied for relief, they were frequently branded as morally unfit by the community. If they worked, they were criticized for neglecting their children.

In 1909, President Theodore Roosevelt called a White House conference on how to best deal with the problem of poor single mothers and their children. The conference declared that preserving the family in the home was preferable to placing the poor in institutions, which were widely criticized as costly failures.


I’m going to switch back to the Knights of Columbus for a moment because the last paragraph is important.

Late-19th century Connecticut was marked by the growing prevalence of fraternal benefit societies, hostility toward Catholic immigrants and dangerous working conditions in factories that left many families fatherless. Recognizing a vital, practical need in his community, Father Michael J. McGivney, the 29-year-old assistant pastor of St. Mary’s Church in New Haven, Conn., gathered a group of men at his parish on Oct. 2, 1881. He proposed establishing a lay organization, the goal of which would be to prevent Catholic men from entering secret societies whose membership was antithetical to Church teaching, to unite men of Catholic faith and to provide for the families of deceased members.


As we see from the above, when a young husband died the widow (given the general hostility towards single mothers and Catholic women in general) went to the poor house and the children to the orphanage. Father McGivney’s solution was to provide an organization where the men would help those in need, but here we see that there is a indirect connection of work and food, all are working towards helping their ā€œextendedā€ family when the one who normally worked in that family is no longer there to provide the work.

Indeed as all bad things, they start out with ā€œgoodā€ intentions …

The emphasis during the first two years of President Franklin Roosevelt's "New Deal" was to provide work relief for the millions of unemployed Americans. Federal money flowed to the states to pay for public works projects, which employed the jobless. Some federal aid also directly assisted needy victims of the Depression. The states, however, remained mainly responsible for taking care of the so-called "unemployables" (widows, poor children, the elderly poor, and the disabled). But states and private charities, too, were unable to keep up the support of these people at a time when tax collections and personal giving were declining steeply.


In his State of the Union Address before Congress on January 4, 1935, President Roosevelt declared, "the time has come for action by the national government" to provide "security against the major hazards and vicissitudes [uncertainties] of life." He went on to propose the creation of federal unemployment and old-age insurance programs. He also called for guaranteed benefits for poor single mothers and their children along with other dependent persons.
By permanently expanding federal responsibility for the security of all Americans, Roosevelt believed that the necessity for government make-work employment and other forms of Depression relief would disappear.


But that wasn’t what happened. What happened was a decoupling of work with benefits (it is one thing for those who cannot work, but to treat those who can work the same for those who cannot work, the results are devastating).

One more SOURCE

The history of welfare reform reveals that the question of personal responsibility versus assistance to those in need has been a constant in the debate over welfare. Dissatisfaction with welfare began during the 1950s. Critics began to assert that the federal Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program had made welfare a way of life, rather than simply short-term assistance, for many in the program. With this perception, a backlash set in.
During the 1960s President LYNDON B. JOHNSON's administration declared an ostensible "war on poverty" with its GREAT SOCIETY programs: Head Start, the Job Corps, food stamps, and MEDICAID funded education, job training, direct food assistance, and direct medical assistance. Although the poverty rate declined in the 1960s, more than 4 million new recipients signed up for welfare.
Instead of reform, welfare programs underwent major expansions during the Nixon administration. States were required to provide food stamps, and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) consolidated aid for aged, blind, and DISABLED PERSONS. The Earned Income Credit provided the working poor with direct cash assistance in the form of tax credits. As spending grew, so did the welfare rolls.


I’ll get back to Paul’s statement, ā€œDo not let anyone have any food if he refuses to do any work.ā€ We can see what happens when we ignore that statement and the results are not pretty. Well that’s enough reflection on a short reading. I hope this doesn’t happen with every Morning Prayer.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:00 pm

I think you're both missing the point. The poor who don't work are just the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of the poor do work. I've known some who have three or four jobs, and between their three or four jobs work a lot more aggregate hours than someone with a single full-time job.
ā€œā€ŽLife is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.ā€
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:06 am

Dukasaur wrote:I think you're both missing the point. The poor who don't work are just the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of the poor do work. I've known some who have three or four jobs, and between their three or four jobs work a lot more aggregate hours than someone with a single full-time job.


The problem is that the poor who don't work get all the disproportionate attention. Those who do work, who struggle to make ends meet, are generally ignored. The whole environment (economical and political) is out to steal their labor. They are treated more like property than people. The biggest problem is that the extremes ON BOTH SIDES profit enormously in keeping this vile status quo.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:15 am

tzor wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:We need to raise wages and that ain't going to happen until we tighten up the job market more.


Raising minimum wage only lowers employment. Fewer people get more money.

Wages are not the problem. The problem is the cost of everything which, for the most part, is driven by government regulation and multiple layers of government taxation.

Think about this for a moment. FDR saw people unemployed and he created jobs programs that hired people. President Obama saw people unemployed and then later admitted that there were no "shovel ready jobs." What happened between then and now that allowed the former to build all sorts of odd things (an aquarium in Key West, a food stand on the Palisades Parkway) and the later not even to get regular roadwork done? It is the massive increase in government overhead and regulations.

I posted a much larger post in another forum. I think I'll post it here. :twisted:


WRONG! Where in the past has raising the minimum wage hurt employment in the US? Can't find it, heh?

Really, President Obama couldn't do squat with a Republican Congress, who's only goal was to defeat President Obama in 2012.

Yea, we heard how BUSINESS is always complaining about those nasty regulations that hurt them, like worker safety, pollution controls and taxes. Blah- blah and more blah. Business has been paying LESS taxes than they were back in the 1950s, when you compared it to the GDP. Every penny you give to the Corporate Fat Cats, goes into their pockets and not to the employees.

Republicans are bought and sold by the Fat Cats and don't give a sh!t about ordinary Americans. [Yes, we can include some democrats in that category]
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:17 am

tzor wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:I think you're both missing the point. The poor who don't work are just the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of the poor do work. I've known some who have three or four jobs, and between their three or four jobs work a lot more aggregate hours than someone with a single full-time job.


The problem is that the poor who don't work get all the disproportionate attention. Those who do work, who struggle to make ends meet, are generally ignored. The whole environment (economical and political) is out to steal their labor. They are treated more like property than people. The biggest problem is that the extremes ON BOTH SIDES profit enormously in keeping this vile status quo.


POOR is to blame for the GREAT DEPRESSION that started in 2008!!!!

You are such a good Catholic!
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:19 am

patches70 wrote:Ha! According to your logic all the government has to do is pass a law saying that all workers have to be paid a minimum of $30 or so an hour, wait, why stop at $30? Why not 50, or a 100 or whatever you want? Then we just print a trillion(s) dollars and go ahead and throw that straight toward Infrastructure and viola! Everyone is happy.

Once again Bernie the CC'er, much like your idol the real Bernie Sanders you prove yourself to be economically inept.

At least I can safely say that at least the real Bernie Sanders' heart is in the right place, God bless the ignorant fool. You on the other hand are a misogynistic troll.


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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:17 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:WRONG! Where in the past has raising the minimum wage hurt employment in the US? Can't find it, heh?


I can find it. In fact it's pretty easy to find. I'm not going to bother to, however, as this is the time for Mardi Gras. I'll give you a tl;dr summary. When in a given subset of the community, the minimum wage is raised above the average median wage in that demographic employment decreases significantly.

So with that, I shall quote you directly ...

"For young people who have graduated high school or dropped out of high school, who are between the ages of 17 and 20, if they happen to be white, the unemployment rate is 33 percent. If they are Hispanic, the unemployment rate is 36 percent. If they are African-American, the real unemployment rate for young people is 51 percent."

National Review: Minimum-Wage Laws: Ruinous ā€˜Compassion’

Whether it is the current issue or a back issue doesn’t matter. Spain, Greece, and South Africa will be easy to locate in the table near the back, which lists data for various countries. Just look down the unemployment column for countries with unemployment rates around 25 percent. Spain, Greece, and South Africa are always there, whether or not there is a recession. Why? Because they have very generous minimum-wage laws. While you are there, you can look up the unemployment rate for Switzerland, which has no minimum-wage law at all. Over the years, I have never seen the unemployment rate in Switzerland reach as high as 4 percent. Back in 2003, The Economist reported: ā€œSwitzerland’s unemployment neared a five-year high of 3.9% in February.ā€ In the United States, back in what liberals think of as the bad old days before there was a federal minimum-wage law, the annual unemployment rate during Calvin Coolidge’s last four years as president ranged from a high of 4.2 percent to a low of 1.8 percent. Low-income minorities are often hardest hit by the unemployment that follows in the wake of minimum-wage laws. The last year when the black unemployment rate was lower than the white unemployment rate was 1930, the last year before there was a federal minimum-wage law.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:09 pm

I have asn idea. How about we all agree to dismantle the IRS and its ridiculous tax code. I think everyone can agree on that. Then make as little regulation as possible with no tax credits? Both of your ideas cannot prosper unless you kill the root of the problem. As long as the problem is there you both will spout madness and the people who can take advantage of the Federal Reserve Systems and IRS tax code will pimp everyone. This is what's going on today on a global scale. The IMF, International Bank of Settlements and World Bank are basically fronts for the Feds. Now go back to your discussion.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:35 pm

tzor wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:WRONG! Where in the past has raising the minimum wage hurt employment in the US? Can't find it, heh?


I can find it. In fact it's pretty easy to find. I'm not going to bother to, however, as this is the time for Mardi Gras. I'll give you a tl;dr summary. When in a given subset of the community, the minimum wage is raised above the average median wage in that demographic employment decreases significantly.

So with that, I shall quote you directly ...

"For young people who have graduated high school or dropped out of high school, who are between the ages of 17 and 20, if they happen to be white, the unemployment rate is 33 percent. If they are Hispanic, the unemployment rate is 36 percent. If they are African-American, the real unemployment rate for young people is 51 percent."

National Review: Minimum-Wage Laws: Ruinous ā€˜Compassion’

Whether it is the current issue or a back issue doesn’t matter. Spain, Greece, and South Africa will be easy to locate in the table near the back, which lists data for various countries. Just look down the unemployment column for countries with unemployment rates around 25 percent. Spain, Greece, and South Africa are always there, whether or not there is a recession. Why? Because they have very generous minimum-wage laws. While you are there, you can look up the unemployment rate for Switzerland, which has no minimum-wage law at all. Over the years, I have never seen the unemployment rate in Switzerland reach as high as 4 percent. Back in 2003, The Economist reported: ā€œSwitzerland’s unemployment neared a five-year high of 3.9% in February.ā€ In the United States, back in what liberals think of as the bad old days before there was a federal minimum-wage law, the annual unemployment rate during Calvin Coolidge’s last four years as president ranged from a high of 4.2 percent to a low of 1.8 percent. Low-income minorities are often hardest hit by the unemployment that follows in the wake of minimum-wage laws. The last year when the black unemployment rate was lower than the white unemployment rate was 1930, the last year before there was a federal minimum-wage law.

I can find it. In fact it's pretty easy to find. I'm not going to bother to, however, as this is the time for Mardi Gras.

I knew it! You have been drinking one too many Hurricanes. Sober up and get back to us, you silly intoxicated Republican.

In the United States, back in what liberals think of as the bad old days before there was a federal minimum-wage law, the annual unemployment rate during Calvin Coolidge’s last four years as president ranged from a high of 4.2 percent to a low of 1.8 percent.

Calvin Coolidge???? Ha-ha-ha-ha!
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:40 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:I have asn idea. How about we all agree to dismantle the IRS and its ridiculous tax code. I think everyone can agree on that. Then make as little regulation as possible with no tax credits? Both of your ideas cannot prosper unless you kill the root of the problem. As long as the problem is there you both will spout madness and the people who can take advantage of the Federal Reserve Systems and IRS tax code will pimp everyone. This is what's going on today on a global scale. The IMF, International Bank of Settlements and World Bank are basically fronts for the Feds. Now go back to your discussion.


Who's going to collect the taxes?

The IMF, International Bank of Settlements and World Bank are basically fronts for the Feds

WTF, you really buy that shit?
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:31 pm

Please Bernie tell me how the World Bank works? Or the International Bank of Settlements? Then you might understand.

You can keep the IRS and its 70,000 plus tax codes. You basically give your money to the Feds. Then you have to prove that you didn't break the law within the last tax year. Basically incriminating yourself with a tax form. Show all your tax breaks and receipt to go with it. Then maybe the government will give you your money back. You basically pay in more than what you should and have to beg for the money you overpaid back.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:15 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:I knew it! You have been drinking one too many Hurricanes. Sober up and get back to us, you silly intoxicated Republican.


Bernie Sanders wrote:Calvin Coolidge???? Ha-ha-ha-ha!


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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:11 pm

tzor wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:I knew it! You have been drinking one too many Hurricanes. Sober up and get back to us, you silly intoxicated Republican.


Bernie Sanders wrote:Calvin Coolidge???? Ha-ha-ha-ha!


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President Calvin Coolidge was responsible for the GREAT DEPRESSION!

..and poor President Hoover, he did what most Republicans would want him to do, NOTHING and the economy went BUST!
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:26 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:President Calvin Coolidge was responsible for the GREAT DEPRESSION!


No he wasn't. It really was a team effort. :twisted:

It is much like the "Blame Bush" mantra that was started in the Obama administration.

Herbert Hoover (he sucked so badly they named a vacuum cleaner company after him) on the other hand ...

Lee Ohanian, from UCLA, argues that Hoover adopted pro-labor policies after the 1929 stock market crash that "accounted for close to two-thirds of the drop in the nation's gross domestic product over the two years that followed, causing what might otherwise have been a bad recession to slip into the Great Depression".
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby UCAbears on Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:35 am

Are we forgetting that the federal reserve prints money that has no value at all? It doesn't exist..
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby waauw on Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:42 pm

UCAbears wrote:Are we forgetting that the federal reserve prints money that has no intrinsic value at all? It's only valuable as long as people have faith in it..


fixed it for you.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby UCAbears on Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:43 pm

Appreciated.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby tzor on Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:46 pm

UCAbears wrote:Are we forgetting that the federal reserve prints money that has no value at all? It doesn't exist..


Gold has little value whatsoever. (Really, push comes to shove, can you eat gold?) It supply only increases slowly over time. Fiat currency can increase rapidly.

When you get down to it, lots of things have "value" only because people believe it has value.
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Re: Politics and Religion COMBINED - The Thread for Lent

Postby waauw on Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:00 pm

tzor wrote:
UCAbears wrote:Are we forgetting that the federal reserve prints money that has no value at all? It doesn't exist..


Gold has little value whatsoever. (Really, push comes to shove, can you eat gold?) It supply only increases slowly over time. Fiat currency can increase rapidly.

When you get down to it, lots of things have "value" only because people believe it has value.


I seem to remember gold is anti-bacterial like silver, is the most durable of all metals and the worlds best electrical conductor. The only reason gold isn't used industrially very often is because alternatives are so much cheaper. That being said it would be highly valuable even if it didn't have any monetary or jewelry purposes, just not as financially valuable as it is now.
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