[OFFICIAL] Stack the Deck mafia (4/12)Endgame: MAFIA WIN

[madmitch]

What lies has he been caught in? I don't like his answers, but he hasn't changed them.

Dont really see this day ending with anything but a white rose lynch to be fair, just think you can use lynch all liars as justification.

This came about when I.B. said theTWR was lying WCG was defending rose but it was to late he didn;t even vote now he is to eager to get rid of anan ,I say no and VOTE WCG

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

What lies has he been caught in? I don't like his answers, but he hasn't changed them.

Dont really see this day ending with anything but a white rose lynch to be fair, just think you cant use lynch all liars as justification.

This came about when I.B. said theTWR was lying WCG was defending rose but it was to late he didn;t even vote now he is to eager to get rid of anan ,I say no and VOTE WCG

Thankyou Mitch for putting a coherent case together.

He claimed he never said he got the pm from endgame but i see one there which i reposted you also commented on. He claimed i claimed mafia traitor that never happened. Two lies.

I was well aware that IB had hammered, I just didnt like the way he phrased the post in which he did so. As he has turned out to be town, I have not reraised this D2. I had not noticed that White Rose had tried to backtrack his statement about receiving a pm from End, but that to me isnt a basis for lynching someone in itself. I also at the time felt that White Rose just phrased himself badly when claiming that PT had claimed mafia traitor. It was a rehash of a comment I had made about there being a possibility, that White Rose had decided to overstate, scummy but not "lynch all liars".

IB was dressing it as a policy lynch, and I dont believe it was.

As a side, I personally prefer to lynch Boss today over AnaManiac, but I dont care strongly about that, so am happy to leave my vote off. Its early in the day no need to hammer.

@Dakky - Grow some balls. You played well D1 to push White Rose. Dont rest on your laurels, continue the good work. IB is not the cop, so follow the cop doesnt work. IB has no information which you do not, so you are equally capable of making reads. Do so.

@ Wing Why would I be looking for a case against YOU? I am looking at everyone and have ZERO reasons to jump on your case all of sudden. I did review all the information and that's exactly how I pinned you down as scum.

Utter rubbish. You reactionary OMGUS'd me, and are now attempting to justify said OMGUS. I am not bothering to respond to your posts as I do not respect the lack of any logic in your case. I'm not quite sure why you expect me to keep track of deaths when the original scene had IB as one of the dead.

Now onto the real case at hand:

I don't overthink my moves when I make them; I act based on what I feel is in the best interest of town. But now my lack of a vote on TWR is being called to question, and I'm explaining it with my motivations for it, and showing how it's illogical for mafia to make that move. I'm analysing the situation WITH hindsight bias, which I wouldn't have been able to do as scum at that point. This is how you make a proper defence. How else would you suggest someone defends himself?

I tend to state my intentions clearly before hand so that this issue does not arise. If you were witholding your vote to create additional discussion time, then state this and encourage others to do the same. This is a defence. Prevention is better than a cure.

1. If TWR, bosaa and I are truly a group of scum, it's blazingly stupid for us to REPEATEDLY call our 'connection' to light. It's plain stupid strategy for scum, no matter how new a player one is.
2. I addressed that post of TWR's already. I can't control what others are saying, and I suspect TWR was trying to drag down a townie (me) with him if he got lynched by making a showy display of "buddying" with me. For all I know, bosaa is trying to do the same.
3. I was referring to the former post, in which I said:

He (Dakky) was inactive, and all he did other than joke voting was to tunnel TWR, without addressing any of the questions raised about him.

Please find and quote a question that Dakky did not answer D1. I have looked and cant see one. This may have a lot to do with the dubious scumhunting going on these days. If you would like information then ask a question, making mild musings on a subject will rarely draw a response. Ask direct & specific questions.

The other thing I find important when building cases is how difficult they are to push through. I am taking a lot of flak from Boss here for very little, and so I can only conclude that I am correct about AnaManiac and Boss. I find his defence far from convincing.

[madmitch]

Me thinks you protest to much

[anamainiacks]

Regarding bosaa's case on WCG, as much as I'd like an alternate wagon forming, I think the case doesn't hold water. The crux of the the argument is that EoTW was a secret message, but I don't see that happening. There's no way for the goon to know the traitor's secret code if they have no way to communicate; unless the traitor was recruited, in which case there's no need for secret messages. I have no idea what that thing about TimWoodbury was, but for now, all I can take it as, is just a mistake. In fact, Tim would've been a strong suspect going into D2 if he were still around, so I can't imagine why scum would be trying to get him out.

WCG is one of my most town-leaning read at the moment. He's been making logical comments, particularly regarding cautioning IB not being too open about his reads. Scum could've easily let it slide and get as much information as possible from IB. So I'm not voting that way right now.

--------

Mate, I voted TWR day one because he joke voted for mod, who is not playing and not a valid player... and that was first sign of scumness.. I just kept my vote on him as the more he speaked ... the more it was scum.

You're doing the same... Sorry mate, but you're sounding scum ... maybe Wing is scum instead of you, but we won't know until you get lynched... I will switch my vote to Wing if IB decides to switch, but until then you're my no.1 suspect.

What lies has he been caught in? I don't like his answers, but he hasn't changed them.

Dont really see this day ending with anything but a white rose lynch to be fair, just think you can use lynch all liars as justification.

This came about when I.B. said theTWR was lying WCG was defending rose but it was to late he didn;t even vote now he is to eager to get rid of anan ,I say no and VOTE WCG

I'm not sure why people are seeing this as WCG vs. me. I'm the one on the chopping block and even I can see that WCG isn't the main proponent of my lynch. I think that was Endgame, though he said my arguments make sense and still left his vote there...

@dakky Sorry, I'm doing the same as whom or what? So if IB switches his vote, I'm no longer your No. 1 suspect? Your impression of my scumminess is based on where IB votes? That's hardly a reason. I'm fine if you have a reason to vote for me, but you're not giving any, other than "you're sounding scum". What sounds scum to you? Don't let others do the hunting.

--------

I guess I have to find another case if I want to survive, and don't want to lynch WCG at this point. So here are my reads:

-Iron Butterfly - town vig. What else can I say.
-Endgame422 - leaning town. Main proponent of the TWR lynch, pushed for it even when there wasn't momentum on it, and could've easily shifted the focus onto someone else. Doesn't sound like scum play.
-WingCmdr Ginkapo - leaning town, mentioned above.
-bosaardbeitje - neutral. Made a dubious case on WCG and Endgame, but in general she sounds like she's still learning the game, and is earnestly trying. Posts sound genuine and honest, as if she's speaking her mind openly. Not sure how much of this is a facade though.
-rizky_biznezz - neutral. As I mentioned earlier in D2, I was waiting for his response to my question to decide on my read on him. I was expecting him to continue suggesting that his constant posting of reads were indeed 'cases', which would make me believe he was trying to see what stuck, and vote based on where the rest were voting. But his answer was satisfactory, and for now I do believe he's trying to post his thoughts more often, after I prodded him on D1. Someone also mentioned this is his 2nd game, so I understand there might be a learning curve.
-Marashu - neutral/slight scum. I know he mods some of these games, and I imagine he'd be a superb and intelligent mafia player, i.e. if he's scum he'll definitely know how to hide it well. Looking at his posts, he's said enough to keep him off the scumdar, but nothing that particularly strikes me as town. Was away while the push on TWR was happening, so we can't get much out of that, voted when he came back and PT had CCed, which was convenient timing. Hasn't said anything that might link him to other players, whether as a proponent or opponent. I'm interested to see his latest thoughts and comments, given how things have progressed since his last (and first) post for D2.
-dakky21 - neutral/slight scum. I still find his posts extremely lacklustre, especially now with him blindly following whatever IB does. The only thing that's keeping me from being fully suspicious of him is that he was one of the 2 original voters on the TWR case, though he did much less pushing than Endgame did.
-MADmitch - neutral/slight scum. I still have completely no idea what to make of his play, but I know I can't give him excuses forever. Still posting one liners every so often, and is pretty much a loose canon at this point.

So hmm... after all that, I guess I can only conclude that I don't have strong scum reads at the moment... Guess I can see why I'm the target, in light of that.


FP'ed by WCG.

@Dakky - Grow some balls. You played well D1 to push White Rose. Dont rest on your laurels, continue the good work. IB is not the cop, so follow the cop doesnt work. IB has no information which you do not, so you are equally capable of making reads. Do so.

Thank you.

I don't overthink my moves when I make them; I act based on what I feel is in the best interest of town. But now my lack of a vote on TWR is being called to question, and I'm explaining it with my motivations for it, and showing how it's illogical for mafia to make that move. I'm analysing the situation WITH hindsight bias, which I wouldn't have been able to do as scum at that point. This is how you make a proper defence. How else would you suggest someone defends himself?

I tend to state my intentions clearly before hand so that this issue does not arise. If you were witholding your vote to create additional discussion time, then state this and encourage others to do the same. This is a defence. Prevention is better than a cure.

That's exactly what I did here:

Wow, it sounds like you [TWR] didn't read the first post properly... what PT described is exactly how it Streaker said it'd be done. Seems like you're the one lying instead.

Unvote. I count 6 votes on TWR, and I'm ready to hammer. But do we have anything else we want to discuss before that? We have 2 more days to go before the deadline, and it sounds like Streaker isn't free enough to come in anyway.

"If you were witholding your vote to create additional discussion time, then state this and encourage others to do the same," you say. Well that's exactly what I did. But you're still targeting me. Stuff like these are still going to be called WIFOM, unfortunately.

1. If TWR, bosaa and I are truly a group of scum, it's blazingly stupid for us to REPEATEDLY call our 'connection' to light. It's plain stupid strategy for scum, no matter how new a player one is.
2. I addressed that post of TWR's already. I can't control what others are saying, and I suspect TWR was trying to drag down a townie (me) with him if he got lynched by making a showy display of "buddying" with me. For all I know, bosaa is trying to do the same.
3. I was referring to the former post, in which I said:

bosaa raised up some great points about dakky not commenting much about anything other than targeting TWR. I'm also not entirely convinced about his explanation about being away, since he managed to get in 5 posts during joke vote phase when the game started. He could possibly be keeping his vote on TWR since that's one of the other cases with the most traction and votes at the moment - I think there's currently 2 each on TWR and dakky?

1. You didnt, nice leap of logic. You mirrored and subtly distracted. Only that one post from White Rose was outright buddying.
2. No comment, its not the fundamental of the case.
3. Weak as, Dakky built that case and pushed it. I also sincerely doubt anyone read that post and was left with the impression of you having serious concerns about Dakky.
4. I admit to tunneling, and admit to reassessing my opinions in light of new information. Boss would like to lynch me for this.

1. Leap of logic? I don't get where I made one. I mentioned when I agreed with bosaa's perspectives on multiple occasions, going so far as to mention her name when I did (with bosaa doing the same about me on multiple occasions), so the point still stands that it's foolish play if 3 of us were mafia. If I were unconsciously trying to agree with a supposed scum buddy, it'd be best to be discreet about it.
3. No, Endgame built the case; dakky followed, though admittedly he posted evidence for it. Fact still remains that he was tunneling, and not responding to anything else happening in the game, which is never a good sign. My mistake then, for making my concerns clearer. Will bear that in mind in future. (Not being sarcastic here.)
2&4. Noted.

He (Dakky) was inactive, and all he did other than joke voting was to tunnel TWR, without addressing any of the questions raised about him.

Please find and quote a question that Dakky did not answer D1. I have looked and cant see one. This may have a lot to do with the dubious scumhunting going on these days. If you would like information then ask a question, making mild musings on a subject will rarely draw a response. Ask direct & specific questions.

The other thing I find important when building cases is how difficult they are to push through. I am taking a lot of flak from Boss here for very little, and so I can only conclude that I am correct about AnaManiac and Boss. I find his defence far from convincing.

Not specific questions directed at him, but 'questions' meaning suspicions i.e. things people listed as questionable/dubious. Though like you said before, I guess it may not have been apparent in the way they were brought up. Most people tend to pick up and respond to things when players bring up reasons why they find them suspicious.

So while we’re at it, @dakky, what have I done that seems scummy to you? And who are your top 2 scum reads, top 2 town reads, and why?

FP'ed (again) by mitch

[anamainiacks]

Sorry for that extremely long post...

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I'll bite, one is scummier than the other.

Vote Boss

[dakky21]

So while we’re at it, @dakky, what have I done that seems scummy to you? And who are your top 2 scum reads, top 2 town reads, and why?

Because I say so. When I think someone is mafia, I say what I think, and don't question me.. anyway, my two top scum reads are you and wing, possibly endgame, we didn't heared from Marashu and madmitch for some time as well, so all of you could me mafia... Anamainiacks you're leaning town for me but I'll stick to the town vig reads...

[Iron Butterfly]

some interesting bs flying around.

Animaniacks. In as short and as concise a post as possible I want you to address my vote on you. No walls of text.

You had a chance to make TWR claim. Your vote would have put him at L2, which would have force him to claim. You instead put your vote Dakky which put only 2 votes on him. The reason TWR was lynched was because of his claim.

[Marashu]

Working on a post - a lot of long posts to go through, and I want to make sure I don't miss anything.

[Marashu]

First of all, the case on Wing: EotW was a reference to the August official game hosted by rishaed, short for Eye of the World. While that may not have been immediately evident, I would say that it could be deduced rather easily from context. I'm not sure why bosaa says "I am pretty 'stumped' = unrecruited traitor." That argument specifically felt like fitting evidence to the theory rather than the other way around. Also,

If Wing flips Town it's a no brainer to kill Anam and me next, since Wing is clearly trying to frame us.

If Wing is town, why would Wing be trying to frame you? That said, I disagree with ana's argument that bosaa's case hinges on the EotW reference - if you look, it was formed from Wing's post on Tim's play D1. And on that point, I agree that it is scummy, but my conclusion is different from bosaa's. She seems to believe that he's a traitor. If he is, then he's a recruited one, because that post does look like it was prepared beforehand. Mafia would already know who would be getting killed N1, but would not be aware of a vig kill. He didn't need to see who flipped because he would know players' alignments. Also, he notes in one of his tiny posts at the start of D2:

I need to be at a pc to reread D1 before I can post anything substantial.

His prepared statement could have been on his PC, which is why his "outrage" to Tim didn't happen. His telling IB to hold onto reads for kills also isn't super towny to me, if he knows that he or his partner is bulletproof (if he's scum but not the traitor, and the traitor is unrecruited, that would mean scum would have a BP and a one-shot BP). I'll admit all of this is theory and speculation, but right now it makes the most sense for his slip D2. As I said before, I felt D1 that he was role fishing - him looking at when people were posting and guessing if they had a PM would only really help him catch a recruited traitor - otherwise, it would be PRs that would be getting PMs.

For the case on ana: I agree with ana that not wanting to hammer right at that moment was a good play - why waste 2 more days of discussion, when it's certain that we'd either lynch mafia, or have confirmed mafia to lynch D2? Not wanting to force a scumread to claim for "equal pressure" doesn't sit right for me, though, especially since even with your vote that didn't put rose and dakky at equal. I feel like his arguments have been making sense, though, besides that, so I'm not entirely convinced that he's mafia.

@dakky: if IB switches his vote to you, will you confess?
@mitch: do you currently think that the traitor is recruited or unrecruited?

Other thoughts:
-I'm leaning town with mitch right now. He could have jumped on the ana train as it was building steam like he did with rose (who, if mafia, would be a scumbuddy, so he wouldn't be afraid of bussing), but instead goes for the Wing train, which has a lot less momentum.
-I could absolutely see Wing/Dakky being a scum pair. If we're going lynch all liars, we should be looking into dakky right now for this gem:

anyway, my two top scum reads are you[ana] and wing, possibly endgame, we didn't heared from Marashu and madmitch for some time as well, so all of you could me mafia... Anamainiacks you're leaning town for me but I'll stick to the town vig reads...

How can ana be one of your top scum reads AND leaning town at the same time?
-I am convinced that Wing/bosaa are not partners, and End/ana are not partners.

Vote Dakky

[Iron Butterfly]

"For the case on ana: I agree with ana that not wanting to hammer right at that moment was a good play - why waste 2 more days of discussion, when it's certain that we'd either lynch mafia, or have confirmed mafia to lynch D2? Not wanting to force a scumread to claim for "equal pressure" doesn't sit right for me, though, especially since even with your vote that didn't put rose and dakky at equal. I feel like his arguments have been making sense, though, besides that, so I'm not entirely convinced that he's mafia."

My interest in Ani is why he did not force a claim. It's easy to saying one does not want to hammer, which appears as a Town motivation. Saying one wants to hold off on a hammer proves nothing. If your mafia it just a self serving statement to look Town.

He had no clue that TWR would be lynched. He just had pressure, that is all.

[rizky_biznezz]

ok lots going on.... firstly im less suspicious of bos especially with roses post:

wing, that was a good spot, could it be that ptlowe is the mafia traitor and is dropping a hint to his scum buddy bos? this would assume 2 things, 1. scum did not recruit the mafia traitor, 2. bos is scum.

could ptlowe be dropping a hint to bos, that he is the traitor? would be very daring?

pt, could you give us an explanation as to what you meant by 'but but but, your my new buddy'?

dont think rose would use a defense like that if bos was his scum buddy.

that is twice though that rose followed wing:

hmm, very clever wing. It could of course be totally useless, however, its all we have to go on at the moment.....so vote mars

rose posts this:

talking of which if we have a roleblocker he must be careful not to block the bodyguard, who i hope will protect me, thats assuming of course i am believed and not lynched. In fact if i were the town roleblocker i think i would consider not using my role tonight....i mean who could he block? only the role cop surely? who may or may not exist and he would risk blocking cop or bodyguard which would be disastrous

wing was quick to shut him up when he was making himself look more suspicious after his claim and before the counterclaim:

White Rose, roleblocker can block factional kills. Bodyguard will be aware that he/she could protect you. No need to elaborate, let each player, play their own role.

i asked if rose saying:

In fact if i were the town roleblocker i think i would consider not using my role tonight

was suspicious or not and wing answered me with:

Rizky - PTlowe is counter claiming The White Rose. ONE of them is mafia.

So vote either Ptlowe or White Rose. If they flip town, we lynch the other tomorrow. Its nice when mafia becomes so simple.

i understood the counterclaim i wanted to know if rose was suspicious or not for it..

by page 9 its pretty certain there is no saving rose so wing can work more on his town credit... also find the timing of the posts a little suss.. wing and rose one after the other for several posts:
https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=213&t=215356&start=200

a few more statements from rose to make us listen to wings future reads and suspects:

wing, you are a good player, and i see your logic, it appears sound.

like wing said, its a team game, so go town

Pt had to claim to help lynch rose.. and tim says he only received one pm and accidentally claims but wings post seems a little dramatic:

STOP CLAIMING. JUST STOP IT. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE NEED TO SAY THIS?

tim had already been a bit suspicious so maybe he was going to be scums next easy target but with him claiming early with no reason to he didnt look as suspicious plus if more people accidentally claim he wont have as many ppl to hide behind.

then there is the questioning a dead man.... then points out a few posts from mars for defending rose, but then says he is letting go of his tunnelling on mars:

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=213&t=215356&start=250#p4750517


then there is the increase in wings posts firstly when the whole rose thing was going down and he was trying to save him then get his town credit... and then when bos called him out

[rizky_biznezz]

wing did vote for rose a few times so that does cause doubts... but if end is his partner then that was the plan the whole time..

im still not sure of mitch there hasnt been a whole lot out of him... no list of suspects just a few questions here and there and an occasional vote..

anam i did originally think was suspicious and im not entirely convinced but at the moment i think i am more curious as to what wing is as i think we could learn more from that... if wing is town then we can follow up his initial mars feeling and i can go back to anam but if he is scum it will clear anam and we might find out if they threw their buddy under the bus..

vote Wing

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I really need to stop trying to teach players during the game. I get called scum for it everytime.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

if he knows that he or his partner is bulletproof (if he's scum but not the traitor, and the traitor is unrecruited, that would mean scum would have a BP and a one-shot BP)

What? Thats not even true. Mafia didnt have to take both bulletproof and one shot ninja and is irrelevant of whether the traitor was recruited as they can choose three power roles. What is this twaddle?

@Mars - I was away for a long weekend, there was no prepared statement. As I said I find it hard to read through all the game on my tablet. No idea what on earth you are on about.

How do you explain Dakky pushing the White Rose case all D1 if he isnt town? Have you looked at all the facts or just found an error in the last page and leapt on it?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Also, I am not claiming to three bulls""t cases. If you want me to claim come up with an argument.

[rizky_biznezz]

@mars u make a good point about dakkys post saying ana is in his top 2 scum and then saying he thinks he is town but still votes for him is quite bizarre..

@wing I'm still undecided but ur reaction doesn't help... Give us something else to look at cos otherwise it looks like ur waiting to talk to ur scum buddy to work on ur defence.. U keep suggesting mars why not put together ur case?

[dakky21]

-I could absolutely see Wing/Dakky being a scum pair. If we're going lynch all liars, we should be looking into dakky right now for this gem:

anyway, my two top scum reads are you[ana] and wing, possibly endgame, we didn't heared from Marashu and madmitch for some time as well, so all of you could me mafia... Anamainiacks you're leaning town for me but I'll stick to the town vig reads...

How can ana be one of your top scum reads AND leaning town at the same time?

Ana almost convinced me he is town. I still think he is scum. Simple as that.
With some more work from his side, I may change my vote.
By the way, while IB's reads could be wrong, I don't see why wouldn't I stick to the town vig reads if I agree with them?

[rizky_biznezz]

@dakky because we know he is on our side yes but he doesn't know anything extra he knows as much as we do.. Basically no evidence to support he is right or wrong so they are pushing u to make ur own reads and cases not just follow someone else who is guessing

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

@wing I'm still undecided but ur reaction doesn't help... Give us something else to look at cos otherwise it looks like ur waiting to talk to ur scum buddy to work on ur defence.. U keep suggesting mars why not put together ur case?

I am not suggesting Mars is scum. Try reading.

What are you going to do? Vote me? You already have. I do not believe that a bandwagon will form on the basis of those cases, so i am not claiming prematurely.

[rizky_biznezz]

u have mentioned mars several times... yes one of your later posts said you weren't tunnelling anymore but that was after you pointed out a few more posts you found suspicious and then you pointed out a few more things that you thought didnt make sense... sorry for jumping to the wild conclusion that you still found mars slightly suspicious...

yes i have voted you but i could unvote you if someone seems scummier...

maybe the cases are bull as you say, but its not like scum are gonna come out and say "hey its me" so we can only use what we have... since you are the expert and our attempts are crap guess i will eagerly await your rock solid case which im sure will be coming soon

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Me thinks you protest to much

Mitch, why do you think I protested to much to your case. What did you hope to achieve by posting it? I explained the reasoning behind my comment, rather than defended it. My reasoning in hindsight wasnt correct at the time, i wont deny that.

[Iron Butterfly]

@dakky because we know he is on our side yes but he doesn't know anything extra he knows as much as we do.. Basically no evidence to support he is right or wrong so they are pushing u to make ur own reads and cases not just follow someone else who is guessing

Actually not true.You are new to this game. You have not learned the what to look for. While it's true you will never know something with absolute certainty until someone flips there are certian things one looks for and that raise the probabilities.My read is one of the most basic. One does not need to be wordy or complicated. We nailed scum day one at it's most simple. Dakky pointed that out and I noticed the difference in behavior. Sometimes that is all it takes, which is why people talk about the "meta"of a player. Sometimes someone sees something that you may not or that you missed.

I believe you are Town. Why? *grin* your whole let me write my reads in case mafia kills you among other reads.

With ani my case is again very simple. Why would Ani vote Dakky who had one vote when we needed a claim from TWR who had 4 votes? The quicker we get a claim the quicker we can decide. Also if you notice he also wanted to drag the game out for another two days.After he was counter claimed. All that does is make people second guess. TWR was the best lynch no matter what.

[rizky_biznezz]

it makes sense to me to follow a confirmed townie you know they arent playing any kind of games and if they happen to coincide with your thoughts then you might be on to something good... thought dakky might have missed where they posted why he shouldnt follow you

im interested to see anams response to your question

[Endgame422]

I agree rizky is town.
His case on wing was the only grounded in facts instead of fantasy.