Religion vs Homosexuality

[jimboston]

Not sure what you mean by "completely secular"... as a majority of citizens in all countries you mention identify with some religious group or another.

These do not sound like religious societies to me.

You used the phrase "completely secular". Now I show you that a majority of these societies identify as having a religion. Most may not practice regularly... that's true in the USA too. So define "completely secular". Cause you say they don't sound religious, but the stats from the links I provided say different.

Can an avowed atheist win an election in these countries?
Would a majority claim "there is no god"?

And all of this still doesn't change the fact that corruption is pretty high in a lot of countries where religion holds significant sway.

That's not a point I argued against.

My argument was for balance... Church -v- State. Not a society where either is dominant.

Likewise, there are plenty of countries in which religion has retained a strong influence where corruption is rife (Afghanistan, Iraq, India, the list goes on).

Religion controls Gov't in these countries.

India is a secular state. To give another example: Malaysia. Secular government, heavy influence of religion, prime minister currently embroiled in several enormous corruption/abuse of power scandals.[/quote]

You are proving my point.

Your 'communist USSR/China/North Korea' (lol) analogy was off the mark. The issue with corruption in those countries is not because too few people have found the Lord Jesus - it's because government is not as transparent as it could be, and there exist relatively few checks on use of government power.

Yes... it's not because they lack religion. It's because the Gov't controls everything.

The Gov't has become religion. You are the perfect example with your blind devotion to China!

Just to take the example of China, there are plenty of people in China who are Buddhist, Muslim, worship their ancestors or who are Christian. Much like NZ, Sweden etc., China is a secular country where a significant proportion of the population is religious in some way. There really isn't an kind of significant correlation between religiosity and corruption, much less any causal relationship.

There are a minority of people in China who are religious. For years religion was suppressed. Now religious freedom is growing, along with some democracy and a little less corruption. I see a definite correlation.

BTW... I am done with this argument.

I am now limiting myself to two responses to your trolling.

[mrswdk]

BTW... I am done with this argument.

I am now limiting myself to two responses to your trolling.

Starts to struggle, accuses the other person of being a troll and refuses to debate further.

You're as bad as PLAYER.

[Bernie Sanders]

BTW... I am done with this argument.

I am now limiting myself to two responses to your trolling.

Starts to struggle, accuses the other person of being a troll and refuses to debate further.

You're as bad as PLAYER.

RUN, THIS THREAD IS GOING TO BLOW!!!

[jimboston]

BTW... I am done with this argument.

I am now limiting myself to two responses to your trolling.

Starts to struggle, accuses the other person of being a troll and refuses to debate further.

You're as bad as PLAYER.

That's good.

It's one of the best Troll moves ever.

It might have worked... as I do have control issues, and could "blow".
However I have no time. Bye bye.

[waauw]

And yet New Zealand, Denmark, Finland and Sweden are completely secular countries with the lowest rates of corruption in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Denmark

The Gov't in these countries is secular... they have separation of church and state as I suggest.

Not sure what you mean by "completely secular"... as a majority of citizens in all countries you mention identify with some religious group or another. A few of these countries technically have an "official" religion, but they don't control the gov't. New Zealand has the highest percentage of "non-religious" people... I think it was like 40%. That means a majority is "religious".


Get your facts right and/or explain yourself better.

Actually I'd like to see where you got your numbers from. Because many of the numbers out there about religiosity in europe are completely wrong. Speaking for my own country for instance, the catholic church is supposedly the biggest in the country. However, the catholic church cooks the books by counting everybody that ever got baptized. You'd have to get debaptized to not get counted as a catholic, which of course most people don't give a damn about.

Additionally many people have become spiritual, but not religious. In the sense that people believe in a soul, perhaps even karma, but not per sé in a deity. People especially don't follow any specific religion any longer. Religion is a very vague term in the european context, it has heavily de-institutionalized and will continue to do so. The large majority of the religious people over here who still allign themselves with a specific branch of religion are above the age of 50 and will start dieing over the course of the next few decades. Religion and spirituality in europe is very different from what it might be in the US.

Over here religion has become a free-thinking concept where many people can't actually be counted as christian or whatever anymore, but they're not atheist, perhaps not even agnostic either. That's pretty much the growing trend nowadays, along with the usual I-don't-give-a-damn-about-the-big-questions-so-I-don't-know-what-I-am.

[mrswdk]

And just in case you feel like crawling out of your cave, I am also wondering:

Likewise, there are plenty of countries in which religion has retained a strong influence where corruption is rife (Afghanistan, Iraq, India, the list goes on).

Religion controls Gov't in these countries.

India is a secular state. To give another example: Malaysia. Secular government, heavy influence of religion, prime minister currently embroiled in several enormous corruption/abuse of power scandals.

You are proving my point.

Jim: My argument was for balance... Church -v- State.
mrswdk: That is the situation in India and Malaysia, and they still have significant corruption anyway
Jim: Exactly.

Always a pleasure trying to make sense of your mental process.

Religion has significant influence in secular countries like India, Malaysia, South Sudan etc., and yet they also have much higher corruption than countries like NZ, Sweden etc. where religion has significantly less influence. This completely contradicts the pattern you are trying to draw, and you have not addressed this.

Your 'communist USSR/China/North Korea' (lol) analogy was off the mark. The issue with corruption in those countries is not because too few people have found the Lord Jesus - it's because government is not as transparent as it could be, and there exist relatively few checks on use of government power.

Yes... it's not because they lack religion. It's because the Gov't controls everything.

Good. So you agree with me that a lack of religion in the countries you name dropped is not the reason they have relatively high corruption. Why are you trying to argue with me then?

[Bernie Sanders]

Brace yourself! This thread is breaking up...shields at 15%

[waauw]

Screw the shields! Offense is the best defense. Ready weapons-systems!

[jimboston]

And yet New Zealand, Denmark, Finland and Sweden are completely secular countries with the lowest rates of corruption in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Denmark

The Gov't in these countries is secular... they have separation of church and state as I suggest.

Not sure what you mean by "completely secular"... as a majority of citizens in all countries you mention identify with some religious group or another. A few of these countries technically have an "official" religion, but they don't control the gov't. New Zealand has the highest percentage of "non-religious" people... I think it was like 40%. That means a majority is "religious".


Get your facts right and/or explain yourself better.

Actually I'd like to see where you got your numbers from.

Wikipedia.
The links are right there.
If they are wrong... go on there and edit them.

[jimboston]

And just in case you feel like crawling out of your cave, I am also wondering:

Dude... or whatever you are...

You're too much.

You take one or two points or comments and needle on those.

Invariably the points you choose to respond to are the minutia... side tracks.

Whenever anyone makes a valid counter-argument, you ignore it.
Instead focussing like a good Troll on the minutia.

f*ck off.

I have let myself get sucked in by you for the past week or so. I've burnt enough time.
I've got better things to do. I will reply once or twice if you make valid points,
or to correct some gross oversimplification you make. I won't spend any more time
on you replying point-by-point if you're going to cherry pick the items you respond to.

[Bernie Sanders]

Turn around and let's high warp out of here!

[jimboston]

Turn around and let's high warp out of here!

There's no warping out.

I'm turning around and casually walking away.

I expect she'll through some rocks at me... but her arms are so weak that I'm not worried.

[waauw]

And yet New Zealand, Denmark, Finland and Sweden are completely secular countries with the lowest rates of corruption in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Denmark

The Gov't in these countries is secular... they have separation of church and state as I suggest.

Not sure what you mean by "completely secular"... as a majority of citizens in all countries you mention identify with some religious group or another. A few of these countries technically have an "official" religion, but they don't control the gov't. New Zealand has the highest percentage of "non-religious" people... I think it was like 40%. That means a majority is "religious".


Get your facts right and/or explain yourself better.

Actually I'd like to see where you got your numbers from.

Wikipedia.
The links are right there.
If they are wrong... go on there and edit them.

Right, and your wikipedia proves exactly what I mentioned. You might want to define what you do and don't consider "religious". I quote from one of your url's:

Despite that, religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role compared to the European average. In a Eurobarometer Poll in 2010, just 18% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", although a further 45% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".

You can start wondering whether at least 40% of the swedes are religious as you claim. With only 18% belonging to a theistic religion, where does the other 22% fit? Certainly not all of those 22% are Buddhists. Are they in fact religious or should we rather cathegorize them as spiritualist non-religious?

The least I can conclude is that there are certainly discrepancies between the before mentioned numbers and the numbers provided by the church of sweden, which according to exact same wiki claimed 70% of all swedes were member of their church back in the very same year 2010. Ergo religiosity numbers might not be trustworthy enough to rely on as an argument.

[mrswdk]

Oh lordy. jim accusing me of creating silly diversions and making gross oversimplifications.

And then accusing me of ignoring valid points as he deletes almost my entire post.

On a scale of 1-10, you are a full Bill O'Reilly. Hope your fingers are a comfortable fit inside your ears!

[jimboston]

Right, and your wikipedia proves exactly what I mentioned. You might want to define what you do and don't consider "religious".

My links were a quick search intended to refute mrswdk.

You can parse the data in Wiki if you want.
We could debate "how would you define what makes a person religious or spiritual" all day long.

My simple point was that people in these countries are "religious" or at least some of them.

They have a separation of Church-and-State... I'm not saying the the religion controls the Gov't.
... but neither are the social institutions devoid of religious people.

mrswdk's prior comment implied that said countries are completely secular and devoid of any religion.
The facts don't support his/her comment.

[riskllama]

i think homosexuality should f*ck religion square in the ass...

[Bernie Sanders]

i think homosexuality should f*ck religion square in the ass...

Only if they marry first.

[mrswdk]

Right, and your wikipedia proves exactly what I mentioned. You might want to define what you do and don't consider "religious".

My links were a quick search intended to refute mrswdk.

If only you'd actually read them properly before posting them.

My simple point was that people in these countries are "religious" or at least some of them.

And what about all the non-religious people? How do they behave themselves despite their lack of belief in any religion?

[jimboston]

blah blah blah

I've answered your questions Troll.

I myself say I am not a "believer" in God, yet I feel I'm a decent person.
So obviously I don't feel you NEED to be religious.

So instead of you worrying about me reading the links I post...
perhaps you should read what I write if you want to retort.

You might want to make counter arguments to things I actually
type, and not to extreme points of view I haven't expressed.

[PLAYER57832]

BTW... I am done with this argument.

I am now limiting myself to two responses to your trolling.

Starts to struggle, accuses the other person of being a troll and refuses to debate further.

You're as bad as PLAYER.

You seem to confuse debating with listening to your one-sided and inaccurate diatribes.

I have never stopped debating, but when you "answer" and "question" things that have little or nothing to do with what I have said, you end the debate.

[PLAYER57832]

Denmark,

Not going to tackle the others, but Denmark is hardly secular. They are not given to the religious fights we see here in the US, but that is largely because it is a very small and still fairly homogeneous society. They have a state religion, in fact, taught in the public schools to all students, and while its easy enough for kids to opt out, very few do.'

You can debate whether that means they actually follow their religion, etc, but most will still claim the title, at least officially.

[mrswdk]

Denmark,

Not going to tackle the others, but Denmark is hardly secular. They are not given to the religious fights we see here in the US, but that is largely because it is a very small and still fairly homogeneous society. They have a state religion, in fact, taught in the public schools to all students, and while its easy enough for kids to opt out, very few do.'

You can debate whether that means they actually follow their religion, etc, but most will still claim the title, at least officially.

Here's your chance to distinguish yourself from jimboston by actually reading the links he posted in this thread about religion in Denmark, Sweden, Finland and New Zealand.

[jimboston]

Player... it's a lost cause.

The Mrs. either is too stupid to understand the concept of nuance; or it just wants to Troll and pretends to not understand.

Either way it's impossible to have a logical conversation with it.

(I'll use it to refer to mrswdk henceforth, since I'm tired of typing he/she.)

... though since you've proven yourself also incapable of having a logical conversation, this might be fun.

[mrswdk]

jim, I found the perfect picture for you: