[Official] Wheel of Time:EotW [8/14] D4:Twisted Pattern

[Iron Butterfly]

WING is Innocent!!

Gawd sometimes the obvious is so obvious that it is not obvious.

I am para phrasing my role PM here.

"I have come to Two Rivers on a quest. I have located Three Ta'vern with the potential for great power."

The problem and confusion I had was that I was under the assumption that MY DAY VISIT was how I was suppose to find these women, that they would trigger the raising of the Dragon Reborn.
Now before this game I had no clue as to the lore. I knew nothing and just played.

I was also informed by flavor that I was in search of the Dragon Reborn BUT Rand is suppose to be the Dragon Reborn No? Mitch has claimed to be Rand...I mean the Dragon Reborn is there.

In essence Tal, Wing and Mars are the three women of power, which means

Wing and Tal are Town

Which Tells me Mets, Myself,Wing,Tal and Mitch are who they say.

Interesting how we have no clue who who Agee or Mtam are.

The scum are between those three.

Now if the DarkOne is God Father it does not matter who Iinvestigate and in fact I believe that the case. Tal summed it up...I find them and he heals them.

DO NOT HAMMER WING.YOU DO YOU ARE SCREWED.

[mtamburini]

I disagree on being screwed enough different people have logged in and not hammered him. Hes pretty confirmed scum

[Iron Butterfly]

I disagree on being screwed enough different people have logged in and not hammered him. Hes pretty confirmed scum

Just making sure.

Refute what I have said. Tell me where my reasoning is wrong or off.

You seem to think that logging in to use your vote to lynch offers something.

[madmitch]

UNVOTE

[mtamburini]

I disagree on being screwed enough different people have logged in and not hammered him. Hes pretty confirmed scum

Just making sure.

Refute what I have said. Tell me where my reasoning is wrong or off.

You seem to think that logging in to use your vote to lynch offers something.

You didnt add me into your town which I think is ridiculous considering you just checked me last night. Why would you forget to include me?

[Iron Butterfly]

I disagree on being screwed enough different people have logged in and not hammered him. Hes pretty confirmed scum

Time for you and Agee to claim.

[mtamburini]

I disagree on being screwed enough different people have logged in and not hammered him. Hes pretty confirmed scum

Time for you and Agee to claim.

What does it matter you know im town

[Iron Butterfly]

I disagree on being screwed enough different people have logged in and not hammered him. Hes pretty confirmed scum

Just making sure.

Refute what I have said. Tell me where my reasoning is wrong or off.

You seem to think that logging in to use your vote to lynch offers something.

You didnt add me into your town which I think is ridiculous considering you just checked me last night. Why would you forget to include me?

The logic is quite clear.

There are three Taveren women of with potential power in this game (Wing, Tal and Mars) plus The Dragon Reborn (Rand). Wing has claimed one, Tal has claimed one.Mitch has claimed Rand.
Mets is Lan and has been Masoned to me. By my logic excluding Mets, who I am masoned with Wing, Tal and Mitch are suppose to be in this game.

Does that make you scum?? No. You are however still a question mark. I am not sure I can detect the Dark One. Thats a big one. I can detect those under the influence of the Dark/Shadow or Shadow spawn, which stated you were not.

You need to role claim.

[aage]

I'm gonna spoil the storyline big time in this post so be warned, I'm not putting it in a spoiler though because this is really important to the game atm.

WING is Innocent!!

Gawd sometimes the obvious is so obvious that it is not obvious.

I am para phrasing my role PM here.

"I have come to Two Rivers on a quest. I have located Three Ta'vern with the potential for great power."

The problem and confusion I had was that I was under the assumption that MY DAY VISIT was how I was suppose to find these women, that they would trigger the raising of the Dragon Reborn.
Now before this game I had no clue as to the lore. I knew nothing and just played.

I was also informed by flavor that I was in search of the Dragon Reborn BUT Rand is suppose to be the Dragon Reborn No? Mitch has claimed to be Rand...I mean the Dragon Reborn is there.

In essence Tal, Wing and Mars are the three women of power, which means

Wing and Tal are Town

Which Tells me Mets, Myself,Wing,Tal and Mitch are who they say.

Interesting how we have no clue who who Agee or Mtam are.

The scum are between those three.

Now if the DarkOne is God Father it does not matter who Iinvestigate and in fact I believe that the case. Tal summed it up...I find them and he heals them.

DO NOT HAMMER WING.YOU DO YOU ARE SCREWED.

No.

Allow me to explain how I (very strongly) believe the setup works.

The three ta'veren Moiraine is looking for in Two Rivers are Mat, Perrin and Rand. She is not specifically looking for women who can channel, she just takes them with her because they either insist or have to. She later discovers they are very strong channellers, so it's a good thing they came along.

I'll claim my role here because I don't think you'll get the situation I'm seeing if I don't.
I'm Loial, no night action but I can track someone during the day. D1-D3 this ability was not used, DD visited Wing regularly (I think everyone has the day visit ability, this is nothing special) but that didn't yield anything. During D4 I used the ability to track Talap, and I saw him visit IB which confirmed for me that Tal and IB are at least not both mafia (why would mafia visit their own?). I am part of the group that travels with Moiraine to eventually reach the Eye of the World.
There is room in the setup for one last named person from that group led by Moiraine, and that is Mat Cauthon. (Sorry if I'm spilling your beans here Mtam but I have to clear this stuff up, I don't want to mislynch after I found a mafia.) I think Mtam is Mat. This:

Tal claimed the only name left in the game that fits the description, as I'm fairly confident Matam will claim a different name.

was not a typo.

The group consists of Rand, Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve, Egwene, Loial, Lan and Moiraine. After the incident with Mordeth and a trolloc attack, Perrin and Egwene are separated and meet Elyas, hence why he is in the setup. Rand and Mat are also separated and they meet with Thom Merrilin, hence why I give more credibility to End's claim. The counterpart to Thom in this game, Elyas, flipped blue, so it doesn't surprise me Thom is in the game and I assume Thom will flip blue too.

In the story, Mat, Perrin and Rand all are very strong ta'veren, Rand being the strongest of them. That is why Moiraine brings all three of them - she had information that the person who would be the Dragon Reborn was in Two Rivers, but there were three ta'veren and she didn't know which of them was the Dragon Reborn. This has nothing to do with the women of power. Egwene and Nynaeve just run along, and Moiraine doesn't mind because they are both incredibly strong Channellers.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Wing's role is the least likely to be in the game because he of all the characters so far appears the least frequent in the first book by miles. As I said, Min is only encountered during one, maybe two chapters when the gang stays in a town called Baerlon.


So here we have the setup:

- Moiraine
- Lan

Original gang from Two Rivers:
- Rand
- Mat
- Perrin
- Egwene
- Nynaeve

Travel companions encountered on the way:
- Loial
- Thom Merrilin
- Elyas



Odd ones out:
- Master Luwin (Streaker)
- Min (Wing)
- Padan Fain (Storr)
- Green Man (Virus)


Based on the assumptions I make here, which are heavily supported by the story of EotW, Wing cannot be anything but mafia. This entire theory is completely ruined if Mtam now claims he is not Mat, but as I said, I am very confident I have guessed his role correctly.

[Metsfanmax]

First, it is very unlikely that there's only one mafia left. Second, Thom being in the game makes perfect sense as far as a fakeclaim would go.

[aage]

First, it is very unlikely that there's only one mafia left. Second, Thom being in the game makes perfect sense as far as a fakeclaim would go.

To the first, I would say on 14 people having 4 non-town (streaker, storr, virus, wing) isn't unheard of. We don't know how anti-town Padan Fain precisely was meant to be, nor can we trust what Storr said about it. Flavour indicates he is pure evil, the strongest agent of the Dark One. Personally I believe he was the recruitable mafia member, and would only join the mafia if he was targeted. Somehow the mafia didn't get around to it. Currently town had 2 non-town lynches and 1 town lynch, plus a 3rd party was killed during the night, so take into consideration that town is doing incredibly well.

To the second, that same argument can be made for Min. I really don't get why you think claiming Thom is more damning than claiming Min, especially when claiming a roleblock on Min which makes no sense whatsoever both in game terms (doc+cop means mafia has roleblocker) and in flavour terms (Min sees the Pattern around people, she doesn't paralyse people or something).

[aage]

Also it should be noted that the Dark One, the guy who is believed to be the godfather, is still locked up tight (kind of) during the first book. The only agents of the Dark One in book 1 are Myrddraal, Trollocs and Padan Fain. Two of those three are dead and the Trolloc was mentioned in one of the night scenes.

[Endgame422]

Wing himself disagrees with your theory IB.

Yeah the only thing the wiki says we did together was you locking me up in a tower. Yeah min isnt who your looking for.

But ok
All kinds of theories and basing everything on flavor of PMs and such going around how about how wing and i have played the game.
Hard fact: I killed padan fain,i acted completely alone. He was lying about being town.
Why would scum with NK do that instead of doc who claimed he could not self save?
In comparision wing shot HS(town) on this case,

Hotshot didnt want to be on the streaker lynch until it was absolutely clear I wasnt going to give town any other choice.

He then didnt join the Mars lynch because he couldnt see the logic of lynching someone on the basis of being the only one who would target End v1.0. Of course mafia wouldnt when he knew mafia didnt kill End.

He is avoiding throwing his vote out to use it to push people, and staying reasonably in the shadows.

Theres your case End v2.0

Vote Hotshot

Note i had to drag the reasoning out of him,but not the vote, and that at this point hes trying to get the lynch away from virus,which is exactly what scum would want as dead town is better then dead 3rd party for them.
Also note that wing basically says HS is scum because he believed mars claim(which was true)and because it matched his character claim(also ended up being true).
He goes on to shoot HS because it seems like a safe kill,noone has defended HS so it looks all clear.
So i ask whos scum?
Killer of major 3rd party/non town or killer of townie? I think town wing would not have gone after HS,i believe town wing would have gone after me.
He was hoping for a double play when he admits to trying to get me killed.

Exactly, I needed to force Mtam to take the shot on End by not shooting End myself. I fail to see the issue here. End was targeted, its not my fault he didnt die.

If he thought i should have died why shoot HS?
2 dead townies is all that would have amounted to.
Also during the night just after he was "forcing mtam to shoot end" he was posting that i was town.

I havent shot End. Mafia End trys to manipulate subtly, town End does not. His posts all read as town End. I understand there is a lot against him, but this is town End.

This just seems like he is trying to gain credibility if mtam did kill me,casting doubt on mtam as well.
Only case on me is i lied,so policy lynch on a lie I admitted to asap. A lie that killed padan fain.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

End, congrats on catching Storr. If Hotshot had flipped scum I'd be a hero, unfortunately he didnt.

Aage - This is your third version of flavour that for different reasons has me as an scum. Why are you so scared of me?

[Iron Butterfly]

I guess you forgot that Mtam shot Storr not you...so you did not by any means do it alone. You make it sound like your a hero.

We need Mtam to step in here. It sure would be nice golly gee.

[aage]

End, congrats on catching Storr. If Hotshot had flipped scum I'd be a hero, unfortunately he didnt.

Aage - This is your third version of flavour that for different reasons has me as an scum. Why are you so scared of me?

Third time I'm stating the same version of the flavour. I was reluctant in posting so extensively before because I thought I could convince town to hang you without outing myself and who I thought Mtam and Mets were. IB's latest post and his challenge to refute his theory prompted me to post the most recent version.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

On the previous page you said I am one of the women IB is looking for. On this page you are saying that I am not.

Now you say you knowingly lied.

[Endgame422]

First off mtam did fire the shot but had no idea it would hit storr,so ya at best mtam was my unknowing accomplice,the plan was all me.
And the point is not to say "look at how great i am" but to compare mine and wings actual play instead of your pure flavor nonsense that your confident in despite having never read the books.
Someone who has read the books says your wrong about it.
The person your defending through this flavor-based logic says your wrong about it.
But oh well.
Im not going to argue with you anymore IB,if everyone wants to give wing a pass based on flavor, then there is nothing for me to say here.
Fpd by wing

[Iron Butterfly]

First off mtam did fire the shot but had no idea it would hit storr,so ya at best mtam was my unknowing accomplice,the plan was all me.
And the point is not to say "look at how great i am" but to compare mine and wings actual play instead of your pure flavor nonsense that your confident in despite having never read the books.
Someone who has read the books says your wrong about it.
The person your defending through this flavor-based logic says your wrong about it.
But oh well.
Im not going to argue with you anymore IB,if everyone wants to give wing a pass based on flavor, then there is nothing for me to say here.
Fpd by wing

I do not wish to argue for arguments sake. You are in the position you are in for all the shady choices you have made through out the game. "A pass based on flavor"?

Yup this whole point of game revolves around who is who. If we removed all the flavor and kept the roles and we compared how you have played vs wing, wing would win hands down.

Times have changed mafia wise here. It used to be if one was caught lying or witholding crucial information they would be lynched in a heartbeat.

So until Mtam comes in here it's moot.

[aage]

On the previous page you said I am one of the women IB is looking for. On this page you are saying that I am not.

Now you say you knowingly lied.

You're confusing two things IB referred to. I'm also suspicious that IB is confusing those as well.


IB posted that he was looking for "women of power". Min cannot channel, but she's a woman and she has power (flavour-wise).

Now IB posted he is looking for "ta'veren". This is something else entirely. Anyone who read the book will tell you that this refers to Rand, Mat and Perrin, and not to Nynaeve, Egwene and Min. Either way, that would be a weird group of three to be looking for in Two Rivers, because Min is not in Two Rivers. She is in Baerlon during the events in EotW.

So yes, it's the third time I'm stating that your role does not fit in the flavour and you should be lynched.

[aage]

I guess you forgot that Mtam shot Storr not you...so you did not by any means do it alone. You make it sound like your a hero.

We need Mtam to step in here. It sure would be nice golly gee.

The fact that Mtam shot Storr while targeting Endgame proves that he has a busdrive, no? Why wouldn't he busdrive himself with Tal if he were scum successfully baiting a shot?


The tally between Wing and Endgame

Endgame:
- claimed as soon as he subbed in for Got
- lied about his role, since he didn't mention his busdrive ability right away
- used his busdrive to kill a 3rd party
- shot Endgame1 and tried to shoot Virus. End1 was suspicious, Virus was 3rd party.
- claims a character that flavour fits Joat

Wing:
- claims to be a roleblocker, but for some reason didn't use the ability at night, claimed before being pressured
- dodges my accusations, misconstrues my arguments and twists IB's words to suit his role, but denies having anything to do with IB
- claims a character that doesn't flavour fit roleblocker, and decided seeing the Pattern in an aura around ta'veren is not what IB was looking for when he made his "women of power" post.
- has been a vocal player all round and has been actively scumhunting
- stopped scumhunting and went full defensive ever since I went after him

Tried to make the list as objective as possible. I see why Endgame would be suspicious to some extend, but I cannot repeat this enough, Wing is still the most likely to be mafia at this point.

[Metsfanmax]

I guess you forgot that Mtam shot Storr not you...so you did not by any means do it alone. You make it sound like your a hero.

We need Mtam to step in here. It sure would be nice golly gee.

The fact that Mtam shot Storr while targeting Endgame proves that he has a busdrive, no?

No, of course not. Could be that mtam got roleblocked while simultaneously the mafia were killing Storr.

[Metsfanmax]

Or that mtam was lying the whole time and is the godfather, and mtam and End are scum buddies.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

It is not a two horse race for lynch. Mtam, Mitch, Aage are also potentially scum, I am suspicious of anyone who acts otherwise.

Aage - You are incorrect, I have used my night action every night except N3 as previously explained. Do you want me to repeat that End lied about his role in every post? The case is pretty open and shut in my mind. People either agree or disagree, spamming it wont help.

Its not good that Mtam and Mitch are both happy just to sit quietly and watch. And to some degree Tal too.

[Endgame422]

Wing- You want to lynch mtam/mitch today??
Its between end/wing/aage as the characters not cleared by IB.
Not quite a 2 horse race but i think mitch/mtam are not happening today.
Worrying about a GF while there are still uninvestigated targets is putting the cart before the horse.