Oh Noo's for the people of the US

[chewyman]

Both of these accusations are pretty outrageous.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 28,00.html for a bit of a summary. I know they're a bit far fetched, but I just wanted to correct you on your understanding that the opposition was about class or money. I didn't think anyone disagreed with genuine and fair purchase, just the motivation.

What do you mean? To a Marxist (and we have plenty of them on this forum) everything is about class. Bush Jr certainly didn't earn his money, it was inherited. From my own perspective Bush Snr has every right to pass on his wealth to his children, but to say that's in line with everybody else here's perspective is completely false.

[Iz Man]

That article is from the Guardian. Not exactly a "middle of the road" publication

[Guiscard]

That article is from the Guardian. Not exactly a "middle of the road" publication

FFS... I know! I wasn't saying I agree with the rumours, just showing you what they were!

[Anarchist]

Another Oh No for America, Looks like all these american debts are being coaxed by the next great depression.

http://www.marxist.com/perspectives-wor ... 250507.htm

Considering America is trillions of dollars in debt, why should we believe that the economists know how to balance any form of budget?

[Avron]

old news home slice, peeps have none it was comin for a while now. Big War will stop that BtW.

[Anarchist]

I knew before the article, just advertising man.
(people here believe the economy is STRONG, and that economics is flawless)

Maybe they are trying to get us ready for when China demands America as payment?

Only way the war will stop it is if America plunders enough during the war,
or kills those they are in debt to.....

personally I hope everyone goes back to Zero...

[Avron]

Well truth be told, they will wind up killing everyone they owe, and BtW if we called in everyones else's debt we would no longer be in debt. Currency is stupid as hell, to bad its needed for a Civilization. But no big war come way before big depression.

[Anarchist]

100% Agreed,

I think theres ways around currency that would greatly encourage its removal, ofcourse that would be after certain steps have been made.

wonder what the first major government will be after the war?

"Republicans? Look at the smoke! Like hell were putting you in charge again!"

[Avron]

I intend to gather enough support in the Upper Northwest Region of the USA to break off(In the event of a USA Civil War) into the Democratic Society of the Northwest. Combine Monarchy and Oligarchy with the Senate of Old Rome.

[chewyman]

I intend to gather enough support in the Upper Northwest Region of the USA to break off(In the event of a USA Civil War) into the Democratic Society of the Northwest. Combine Monarchy and Oligarchy with the Senate of Old Rome.

I'm guessing this is sarcasm but unfortunately it's all too close to what a lot of people here actually believe. There are too many people here that go on and on about how great anarchy or communism is without actually doing anything about it. Complaining about how evil capitalism is on the internet doesn't prove that you're highly intelligent or politically adapt, although it doesn't disprove it either. If you feel so strongly about something, actually go out and try and sell that message (in the case of Avron's you won't get any serious support, but at least you'll be doing something to get your message really out there).

[Avron]

That was sarcasm I.E. the govt. joke I made. The stuff I actually try to point out I do sell, I give speeches and shit to my classes allot. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't

[chewyman]

That was sarcasm I.E. the govt. joke I made. The stuff I actually try to point out I do sell, I give speeches and shit to my classes allot. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't

I'm glad to hear it. Note that I didn't say everybody on the forums was. I'm an active member of the Liberal Party in Australia for example. There's a communist with a picture of Che as his avatar who is also active in real world politics but whose name I can't remember offhand.

[Anarchist]

I intend to gather enough support in the Upper Northwest Region of the USA to break off(In the event of a USA Civil War) into the Democratic Society of the Northwest. Combine Monarchy and Oligarchy with the Senate of Old Rome.

I'm guessing this is sarcasm but unfortunately it's all too close to what a lot of people here actually believe. There are too many people here that go on and on about how great anarchy or communism is without actually doing anything about it. Complaining about how evil capitalism is on the internet doesn't prove that you're highly intelligent or politically adapt, although it doesn't disprove it either. If you feel so strongly about something, actually go out and try and sell that message (in the case of Avron's you won't get any serious support, but at least you'll be doing something to get your message really out there).

I fully agree, but it can be applied to everything. Many people are complaining but the only ones who really do anything waste their messages with random attacks of violence. There are several "Terrorist" organisations who actually are fighting for causes that noone outside of their area really know about. Its a lack of courage on behalf of the population who want to change things but are afraid of failure. However the first step is to raise awareness which to some degree talking about it accomplishes. The next step becomes popular support and the defense of your ideas from those who oppose you. Money is however a contributing factor. Personally I am at a crossroads, I realise sitting here accomplishes nothing.

Lets say for instance we wished to institute an actual rogue state(anarchy) We would first need to find a remote territory of little interest,
Whether we purchase it or not is irrelevent. Personally I would advise an island in the South Pacific. Declaring it an individual country is also relatively easy, its defending it and getting it recognised thats the hard part.
Then you would have to build shelter and ensure that it is capable of sustaining life, quality of life being poor, you would have to generate income regardless. Easiest option would be tourism and the drug trade.
This ofcourse would draw attention from local authorities who do not recognise your claim to the land. Thats why it is important for any minority group to ensure that its well armed. Nuclear bomb wouldnt hurt.
So assuming that the authorities ignore you whether through bribery,resistance, or incompetance you now have your small but relatively wealthy rogue state.
Ofcourse if this island is in the South Pacific, you will need to prepare for the rise in water levels. I would encourage an atlantian approach by building domes(bubbles) over each individual island. Oversimplified,yes. absurd,most definately.

Personally I wouldnt mind embracing a new Incan empire from anarcho-social ideas. Still want to go to India....

[Anarchist]

That was sarcasm I.E. the govt. joke I made. The stuff I actually try to point out I do sell, I give speeches and shit to my classes allot. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't

I'm glad to hear it. Note that I didn't say everybody on the forums was. I'm an active member of the Liberal Party in Australia for example. There's a communist with a picture of Che as his avatar who is also active in real world politics but whose name I can't remember offhand.

Flashleg8 i believe

[Iliad]

That was sarcasm I.E. the govt. joke I made. The stuff I actually try to point out I do sell, I give speeches and shit to my classes allot. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't

I'm glad to hear it. Note that I didn't say everybody on the forums was. I'm an active member of the Liberal Party in Australia for example. There's a communist with a picture of Che as his avatar who is also active in real world politics but whose name I can't remember offhand.

Flashleg8 i believe

Yeah I think he was a supporter of communism.

[chewyman]

I intend to gather enough support in the Upper Northwest Region of the USA to break off(In the event of a USA Civil War) into the Democratic Society of the Northwest. Combine Monarchy and Oligarchy with the Senate of Old Rome.

I'm guessing this is sarcasm but unfortunately it's all too close to what a lot of people here actually believe. There are too many people here that go on and on about how great anarchy or communism is without actually doing anything about it. Complaining about how evil capitalism is on the internet doesn't prove that you're highly intelligent or politically adapt, although it doesn't disprove it either. If you feel so strongly about something, actually go out and try and sell that message (in the case of Avron's you won't get any serious support, but at least you'll be doing something to get your message really out there).

I fully agree, but it can be applied to everything. Many people are complaining but the only ones who really do anything waste their messages with random attacks of violence. There are several "Terrorist" organisations who actually are fighting for causes that noone outside of their area really know about. Its a lack of courage on behalf of the population who want to change things but are afraid of failure. However the first step is to raise awareness which to some degree talking about it accomplishes. The next step becomes popular support and the defense of your ideas from those who oppose you. Money is however a contributing factor. Personally I am at a crossroads, I realise sitting here accomplishes nothing.

Lets say for instance we wished to institute an actual rogue state(anarchy) We would first need to find a remote territory of little interest,
Whether we purchase it or not is irrelevent. Personally I would advise an island in the South Pacific. Declaring it an individual country is also relatively easy, its defending it and getting it recognised thats the hard part.
Then you would have to build shelter and ensure that it is capable of sustaining life, quality of life being poor, you would have to generate income regardless. Easiest option would be tourism and the drug trade.
This ofcourse would draw attention from local authorities who do not recognise your claim to the land. Thats why it is important for any minority group to ensure that its well armed. Nuclear bomb wouldnt hurt.
So assuming that the authorities ignore you whether through bribery,resistance, or incompetance you now have your small but relatively wealthy rogue state.
Ofcourse if this island is in the South Pacific, you will need to prepare for the rise in water levels. I would encourage an atlantian approach by building domes(bubbles) over each individual island. Oversimplified,yes. absurd,most definately.

Personally I wouldnt mind embracing a new Incan empire from anarcho-social ideas. Still want to go to India....

You seem to have jumped from political activism to guerrilla warfare
This of course only makes the joke against socialists: "wars are wrong, unless you're a socialist guerrilla" even more amusing, but we'll move on

As for your 'ideal' anarchic nation, you've immediately jumped straight back to state systems of government. How can you have nuclear bombs without a state and defence budget? If a nuke is in the hands of an individual then that individual clearly has too much power and a dictatorship will become inevitable, unless s/he is deposed of. Why would you have to generate income? Are you a capitalist anarchist (they do exist, a perfectly free market is, ironically, anarchic)? If so then you will need an agricultural society. Agricultural practices will naturally advance over time (there is no state to keep them primitive) and you'll end up with another civilisation producing beyond its means.

If you aren't a capitalist anarchist then living standards would, as you mentioned, be extremely low. Hunting and gathering would have to be your means of survival, ie tribalism. Let's assume for the sake of argument that this tribal society didn't develop like almost every other eventually into an agrarian society. Why do you need to create a new civilisation for this? There are plenty of poor tribes all over the worlds that are already living out this 'dream'.

[Jenos Ridan]

I intend to gather enough support in the Upper Northwest Region of the USA to break off(In the event of a USA Civil War) into the Democratic Society of the Northwest. Combine Monarchy and Oligarchy with the Senate of Old Rome.

Is Washington (the state of) included in this? Or are you referring to some other "Northwest"?

[Anarchist]

You seem to have jumped from political activism to guerrilla warfare
This of course only makes the joke against socialists: "wars are wrong, unless you're a socialist guerrilla" even more amusing, but we'll move on

Lol, very true.
There is a difference between being the instigator and the resistant.
however there should be a reserve on political activism, after all it took america 233 years to grant equal rights(ofcourse the homosexuals are still fighting for it)

As for your 'ideal' anarchic nation, you've immediately jumped straight back to state systems of government. How can you have nuclear bombs without a state and defence budget? If a nuke is in the hands of an individual then that individual clearly has too much power and a dictatorship will become inevitable, unless s/he is deposed of. Why would you have to generate income? Are you a capitalist anarchist (they do exist, a perfectly free market is, ironically, anarchic)? If so then you will need an agricultural society. Agricultural practices will naturally advance over time (there is no state to keep them primitive) and you'll end up with another civilisation producing beyond its means.

oh come on! Nuclear bombs are far too expensive and draw way too much attention! (you know im joking about its practicality, right?)
The reason you would require income is for two reasons; 1) importation 2) lack of resources(island)
Granted that this is dipping into the communism to ensure things such as toothpaste and toilet paper(and other things from the outside world)
Were not living in the 19th century anymore, and I cant imagine anyone giving up 100% of the worlds inventions to ensure his individual freedom without wanting to take something with him.
The goal is to be an independent state with the capability for improvement, within that state you have a free society, but something needs to protect it from the outside world(Tibet) since producing your own firearms would most likely be inefficient and waste valuable resources, it would be wise to sell/trade your renewable resource to gain acces to things you need, and later want.

If you aren't a capitalist anarchist then living standards would, as you mentioned, be extremely low. Hunting and gathering would have to be your means of survival, ie tribalism. Let's assume for the sake of argument that this tribal society didn't develop like almost every other eventually into an agrarian society. Why do you need to create a new civilisation for this? There are plenty of poor tribes all over the worlds that are already living out this 'dream'.

Very good arguement overall However these 'poor' tribes are being driven out due to lack of natural resources,lack of land titles,and in the case of Darfur-genocide. Its one thing to embrace the life of a Nomad or Tribesman 100 years ago and something completely different today.
Im not saying theres anything wrong with their Substinent lifestyle, only that they are being eliminated by those who do not respect natural resources, nor their claim to the land. Plus I dont want to give up my CDs, etc...

[chewyman]

oh come on! Nuclear bombs are far too expensive and draw way too much attention! (you know im joking about its practicality, right?)
The reason you would require income is for two reasons; 1) importation 2) lack of resources(island)
Granted that this is dipping into the communism to ensure things such as toothpaste and toilet paper(and other things from the outside world)
Were not living in the 19th century anymore, and I cant imagine anyone giving up 100% of the worlds inventions to ensure his individual freedom without wanting to take something with him.
The goal is to be an independent state with the capability for improvement, within that state you have a free society, but something needs to protect it from the outside world(Tibet) since producing your own firearms would most likely be inefficient and waste valuable resources, it would be wise to sell/trade your renewable resource to gain acces to things you need, and later want.

Well I'm honestly not sure about nukes, you brought them up and it's hard for me to work out when you're being sarcastic or not Obviously your country couldn't have any, but what about conventional defence forces? How does a civilisation of equality have a traditional army with ranks and order? You'd have to have one of those soldiers soviets like in Russia. They didn't work very well of course, who's going to vote to run into no man's land?

A lack of resources shouldn't a problem. Remember how we are going through those resources at an unsustainable rate? I can't imagine anybody in the 19th century giving up all the contemporary technology of that period either. I'm sorry to break it to you but an island selling nothing but renewable resources is not going to be a wealthy island, far from it.

Your country would be so poor it honestly wouldn't need protection. Who wants to invade a crappy island with no significant natural resources?

What's all this talk about the goal being an independent state? What sort of anarchist are you??

Very good arguement overall However these 'poor' tribes are being driven out due to lack of natural resources,lack of land titles,and in the case of Darfur-genocide. Its one thing to embrace the life of a Nomad or Tribesman 100 years ago and something completely different today.
Im not saying theres anything wrong with their Substinent lifestyle, only that they are being eliminated by those who do not respect natural resources, nor their claim to the land. Plus I dont want to give up my CDs, etc...

Thank you lol

Are you expecting more natural resources on this island state of yours? Good luck finding one with anything more than a few trees that hasn't already been populated. I think you've got a pretty unfair opinion of our recent relatives. 100 years ago the world was preparing for World War I, Europe was already industrialised. Things have obviously advanced, but to suggest that tribalism was any more of an option back then is ludicrous.

BTW, I should point out that tribal and nomad civilisations did have a serious affect on their environments. It's a common misconception that they didn't, it's also inaccurate. They had a substantial impact on all life in those areas, be they plant or animal.

[Anarchist]

oh come on! Nuclear bombs are far too expensive and draw way too much attention! (you know im joking about its practicality, right?)
The reason you would require income is for two reasons; 1) importation 2) lack of resources(island)
Granted that this is dipping into the communism to ensure things such as toothpaste and toilet paper(and other things from the outside world)
Were not living in the 19th century anymore, and I cant imagine anyone giving up 100% of the worlds inventions to ensure his individual freedom without wanting to take something with him.
The goal is to be an independent state with the capability for improvement, within that state you have a free society, but something needs to protect it from the outside world(Tibet) since producing your own firearms would most likely be inefficient and waste valuable resources, it would be wise to sell/trade your renewable resource to gain acces to things you need, and later want.

Well I'm honestly not sure about nukes, you brought them up and it's hard for me to work out when you're being sarcastic or not Obviously your country couldn't have any, but what about conventional defence forces? How does a civilisation of equality have a traditional army with ranks and order? You'd have to have one of those soldiers soviets like in Russia. They didn't work very well of course, who's going to vote to run into no man's land?

A lack of resources shouldn't a problem. Remember how we are going through those resources at an unsustainable rate? I can't imagine anybody in the 19th century giving up all the contemporary technology of that period either. I'm sorry to break it to you but an island selling nothing but renewable resources is not going to be a wealthy island, far from it.

Your country would be so poor it honestly wouldn't need protection. Who wants to invade a crappy island with no significant natural resources?

What's all this talk about the goal being an independent state? What sort of anarchist are you??

Very good arguement overall However these 'poor' tribes are being driven out due to lack of natural resources,lack of land titles,and in the case of Darfur-genocide. Its one thing to embrace the life of a Nomad or Tribesman 100 years ago and something completely different today.
Im not saying theres anything wrong with their Substinent lifestyle, only that they are being eliminated by those who do not respect natural resources, nor their claim to the land. Plus I dont want to give up my CDs, etc...

Thank you lol

Are you expecting more natural resources on this island state of yours? Good luck finding one with anything more than a few trees that hasn't already been populated. I think you've got a pretty unfair opinion of our recent relatives. 100 years ago the world was preparing for World War I, Europe was already industrialised. Things have obviously advanced, but to suggest that tribalism was any more of an option back then is ludicrous.

BTW, I should point out that tribal and nomad civilisations did have a serious affect on their environments. It's a common misconception that they didn't, it's also inaccurate. They had a substantial impact on all life in those areas, be they plant or animal.

DAMN pop ups deleted my response, Im tired so ill be brief if you want you can pull at my suggestions and ill try to stitch them back together
Defense forces of protect yourself- Noone should be unarmed.
Military is supposed to be for defense anyway, running into a minefield is an obedient way to die...
If the renewable resource is illegal, it would be proffitable and draw attention. (some drugs are very usefull)
Your absolutely right when the world ends so will we, ofcourse if we do have a enviromental crisis being in a city is the worst place to be. ofcourse an island at the bottom of the ocean isnt very good either...
Being recognised as an independent state prevents autonomy and legal police actions(ex: Waco,Texas)
Living in tribalism was a 100 years more possible then it is today, I cant count the number of fences,houses, and roads that have been built in the last 10 years- 100 would make quite a developmental drop...
They had less of an effect then we do now.... MUCH less

[ksslemp]

http://infowars.com/articles/ps/bush_nspd51_gives_bush_dictatorial_power.htm

Anyone else mange to notice it? Because it sailed way the hell past public media and I only caught it on digg today. This is very, very bad. Even if you don't think Sept.11 was orchestrated how long to you think it will be before an attack to put this into power will be?

The link is Bad! How curious?
Just the name of the website "Infowars" leads me to believe its a propaganda site.

Always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out!

[Guiscard]

http://infowars.com/articles/ps/bush_nspd51_gives_bush_dictatorial_power.htm

Anyone else mange to notice it? Because it sailed way the hell past public media and I only caught it on digg today. This is very, very bad. Even if you don't think Sept.11 was orchestrated how long to you think it will be before an attack to put this into power will be?

The link is Bad! How curious?
Just the name of the website "Infowars" leads me to believe its a propaganda site.

Always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out!

It's 100% true. Fucks sake...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

[GreecePwns]

Ok guys, can we hold on for only 602 more days?!?!?

[Guiscard]

Ok guys, can we hold on for only 602 more days?!?!?

Oh... will it go away then? NO chance whatsoever of a power-hungry secretly-manic leader after Bush at all then...

Poor USA... You'll wish you still had an impotent Queen.

[ksslemp]

http://infowars.com/articles/ps/bush_nspd51_gives_bush_dictatorial_power.htm

Anyone else mange to notice it? Because it sailed way the hell past public media and I only caught it on digg today. This is very, very bad. Even if you don't think Sept.11 was orchestrated how long to you think it will be before an attack to put this into power will be?

The link is Bad! How curious?
Just the name of the website "Infowars" leads me to believe its a propaganda site.

Always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out!

It's 100% true. Fucks sake...

[url]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html
[/url]

Thanks for the Link.

Okay, i read it. It is nothing new, Directives like this have been in place since WW2. Its just an emergency plan to keep a continuity of gov't in the event of a national catastrophe.

What exactly are you concerned about in this directive?