European dream is dying

[mrswdk]

Nationalistic behaviour among multinational corporations is good if you look at it from a national perspective.

Who says that Chinese firms are being nationalistic when they display a preference for dealing with other Chinese companies? Maybe they have better existing relationships with those companies than they do with European ones, and therefore trust those Chinese companies more.

And I don't see how that would have a negative effect on Greek businesses.

In case you are unsure, the statement I originally took issue with was:

As for China, they are a very dangerous trading partner.

And since then your sole contention seems to be that some countries are signing deals with China that you feel are not in those countries' best interests. I would argue that:

- those deals are not really detrimental to the countries that sign them
- the terms are spelled out clearly for all to see. No one is being conned.
- those countries sign those deals of their own complete free will, which means those countries are happy with the deal they are getting

[waauw]

Who says that Chinese firms are being nationalistic when they display a preference for dealing with other Chinese companies? Maybe they have better existing relationships with those companies than they do with European ones, and therefore trust those Chinese companies more.

And I don't see how that would have a negative effect on Greek businesses.

I don't see what else it can be but nationalism, as european businesses do not show any such propensity. They do business with corporations from pretty much anywhere, disregarding their origins. On the downside this results in european businesses missing out on contracts that go to foreigners. But in the long run, it has created tighter mutual interests among european nations. This of course is the painful point with China. Chinese companies are culturally different and their nationalistic tendencies make similar developments less probable.

The negative effect for greek businesses can be compared to someone being disallowed to join a club. Greek businesses would lose in this heavily competitive environment.

An additional negative influence would be the stronger chinese cash-flows. Much like China used to not want western multinationals to invest in China, except for joint ventures, when China was vulnerable. Greece currently is vulnerable and as a consequence its local businesses are too. Ideally, Greece would be a tad more protectionist towards the rest of europe too, however this is not possible due to EU regulations. And well, leaving the EU just isn't a viable option. So the best option for Greece, as far as my opinion goes, is to be as protectionist as possible towards non-EU nations.

In case you are unsure, the statement I originally took issue with was:

As for China, they are a very dangerous trading partner.

And since then your sole contention seems to be that some countries are signing deals with China that you feel are not in those countries' best interests. I would argue that:

- those deals are not really detrimental to the countries that sign them
- the terms are spelled out clearly for all to see. No one is being conned.
- those countries sign those deals of their own complete free will, which means those countries are happy with the deal they are getting

Take this into context as I pointed out above. Some nations are too vulnerable to give up too much domestic economic power to China. In my opinion, this includes countries like Greece, Sri Lanka, all of Africa and many more.

as for your bullet points:

• The deals, sometimes not always it depends on which specific deal, can be detrimental on the long run. Look at the economic development history of emerging markets. Nations develop precisely because of protectionism, which they can only dismiss once they've built a solid secundary sector and wish to expand into high-tech. China, in my opinion, is slightly more economically agressive than most western businesses. This is threatening to the need of protectionism that some countries require. If a country wants to become more affluent, it will require large succesful domestic businesses, rather than getting competed out by foreign businesses.
• I'm not saying the previously mentioned nations are being conned. I'm saying the deals they signed are bad policy. They should have been more picky when accepting deals.
• The problem lies in long-term geopolitical and economic policy. Once you give someone large influence that persona, country or corporation will use that influence to gain more influence. This is the big threat on the long run. Now I agree, nations who sign this have only themselves to blame, because in my opinion they shouldn't.

[mrswdk]

Who says that Chinese firms are being nationalistic when they display a preference for dealing with other Chinese companies? Maybe they have better existing relationships with those companies than they do with European ones, and therefore trust those Chinese companies more.

And I don't see how that would have a negative effect on Greek businesses.

I don't see what else it can be but nationalism, as european businesses do not show any such propensity. They do business with corporations from pretty much anywhere, disregarding their origins. On the downside this results in european businesses missing out on contracts that go to foreigners. But in the long run, it has created tighter mutual interests among european nations. This of course is the painful point with China. Chinese companies are culturally different and their nationalistic tendencies make similar developments less probable.

I can understand a Chinese businessman expanding into another country and choosing to work with the Chinese contact he already knows instead of a completely unknown domestic player. I would imagine that quite often, it's simply a trust thing. It's not because the other Chinese person is Chinese, it's because they're a known quantity.

Maybe it is more common for European businesses to expand into foreign markets and just partner up with anyone who is offering an attractive deal, but if so then I imagine that the list of European businessmen who have ended up being screwed is longer than the list of Chinese businessmen who have ended up being screwed.

The negative effect for greek businesses can be compared to someone being disallowed to join a club.

Please elaborate.

And since then your sole contention seems to be that some countries are signing deals with China that you feel are not in those countries' best interests. I would argue that:

- those deals are not really detrimental to the countries that sign them
- the terms are spelled out clearly for all to see. No one is being conned.
- those countries sign those deals of their own complete free will, which means those countries are happy with the deal they are getting

• The deals, sometimes not always it depends on which specific deal, can be detrimental on the long run. Look at the economic development history of emerging markets. Nations develop precisely because of protectionism, which they can only dismiss once they've built a solid secundary sector and wish to expand into high-tech. China, in my opinion, is slightly more economically agressive than most western businesses. This is threatening to the need of protectionism that some countries require. If a country wants to become more affluent, it will require large succesful domestic businesses, rather than getting competed out by foreign businesses.
• I'm not saying the previously mentioned nations are being conned. I'm saying the deals they signed are bad policy. They should have been more picky when accepting deals.
• The problem lies in long-term geopolitical and economic policy. Once you give someone large influence that persona, country or corporation will use that influence to gain more influence. This is the big threat on the long run. Now I agree, nations who sign this have only themselves to blame, because in my opinion they shouldn't.

- Chinese projects in developing countries are mostly about constructing infrastructure and extracting natural resources. How is that going to result in local enterprises being out-competed while they are still attempting to develop?
- I don't understand your point about China being more economically aggressive than most Western businesses. What do you mean by 'economically aggressive', and are you comparing the Chinese government to Western businesses? Because a more useful comparison would be to compare the Chinese government to other governments, and Chinese businesses to other businesses.
- I think you are still over-stating how much influence China actually has, and exerts, in the countries it invests in. The examples you have provided so far have been fairly underwhelming (Chinese companies leasing berths in ports and a couple of refueling stops for Chinese submarines).

[waauw]

I can understand a Chinese businessman expanding into another country and choosing to work with the Chinese contact he already knows instead of a completely unknown domestic player. I would imagine that quite often, it's simply a trust thing. It's not because the other Chinese person is Chinese, it's because they're a known quantity.

Maybe it is more common for European businesses to expand into foreign markets and just partner up with anyone who is offering an attractive deal, but if so then I imagine that the list of European businessmen who have ended up being screwed is longer than the list of Chinese businessmen who have ended up being screwed.

The thing about europe is that the EU-commission and many european businesses were and largely still are more capitalist than the member states. An example of this is that it is common for both the chinese and american government to provide government contracts exclusively to domestic businesses. But for some reason, don't ask me why, this is forbidden in europe. So businesses all over the world can get government contracts in europe.

This topic is about europe and if you compare protectionism and the free market status in europe with China, europe will come out as the one who is getting screwed by its own policy. In international trade, when two nations conduct trade, the one who is able to remain the most protectionist usually gains the most out of the deal. In this case that's China.

European nations are, however limited, capable of still taking some protectionist measures. For countries as Germany, this still remains unnecessary as German products are usually of higher quality than chinese products. For Greece on the other this is not the case. Their industry is a mess and because of the lack of sufficient high-tech, they will suffer greatly if they were to let too many chinese businesses in.

The same problem somewhat applies to many other countries that are too open for FDI.

The negative effect for greek businesses can be compared to someone being disallowed to join a club.

Please elaborate.

If chinese businesses prefer deals with other chinese partners, obviously greak businesses can't hope to gain too many contracts.

- Chinese projects in developing countries are mostly about constructing infrastructure and extracting natural resources. How is that going to result in local enterprises being out-competed while they are still attempting to develop?
- I don't understand your point about China being more economically aggressive than most Western businesses. What do you mean by 'economically aggressive', and are you comparing the Chinese government to Western businesses? Because a more useful comparison would be to compare the Chinese government to other governments, and Chinese businesses to other businesses.
- I think you are still over-stating how much influence China actually has, and exerts, in the countries it invests in. The examples you have provided so far have been fairly underwhelming (Chinese companies leasing berths in ports and a couple of refueling stops for Chinese submarines).

• Because China is changing. According to China's 10-year plan, which I read quite some years ago. China's objective is to have an innovation based economy by 2020 and China is well on its way to reach that goal. Now consider Europe into two pieces. First we have rich western and northern europe, countries based on innovation themselves. Increasing chinese innovation is an increasing threat to rich europe, though China isn't ready to fully compete with us yet. Secondly consider poor eastern and mediteranean europe. These nations are not developed enough for top tier high-tech products. Instead they thrive on lower tier products. Their problem is that China has already achieved their level of tech and is fully capable of competing with them. Even worse so, China's labourforce is cheaper. This makes admitting chinese businesses in europe potentially dangerous as it would facilitate the cheap product flow into europe.
• European culture has been flooded with liberal ideology for three centuries now. This is in sharp contrast to China, where the idea of liberalism is a lot newer, causing nationalism to have a stronger position in business in China. And it is because of this difference in culture that europe should watch out for China. Chinese businesses are more inclined to aggressively pursue government interests than european businesses. This is also partially because China isn't as privatized as europe, meaning there are more mutual interests between chinese businesses and the chinese government than we might observe in europe.
• The problem, as I've stated already, is that the issues lie on the long-term and many of the deals China has made are just too recent. The chinese government used to be more inward focused, whereas since the 2008-crisis policy in this regard seems to have changed. So the best example I am yet able to provide in this regard is Africa, where China is blatantly taking advantage of corruption.

[mrswdk]

I wrote a more substantial reply but my internet crashed and I lost the whole thing, so I'm just going to give you the executive version:

- shutting Chinese (and other foreign) companies out of Greece would not make Greek companies more competitive. Greek companies would continue to be worse than Chinese ones and would get decimated in every single country other than Greece. They would become less competitive, more expensive, lower quality and would shrink.

The best way to develop industry in its early stages is to encourage joint investment projects - allow foreign companies into your country, on the condition that they work alongside your domestic ones. This will give local firms a chance to learn from those foreign companies, in terms of business practice, technology, knowledge of foreign markets etc. This will help them develop the skills they need to become globally competitive.

- I already explained why some Chinese companies prefer to work with each other rather than foreign companies: relationships and trust. You can keep accusing those firms of nationalism if you like but that won't make it true.

- Where are private Chinese enterprises pursuing Chinese government agenda?

- Your final bullet point seems to be saying that Chinese deals with foreign governments are bad because of long-term effects that we don't actually know about yet. Forgive me for not finding that convincing.

[waauw]

- shutting Chinese (and other foreign) companies out of Greece would not make Greek companies more competitive. Greek companies would continue to be worse than Chinese ones and would get decimated in every single country other than Greece. They would become less competitive, more expensive, lower quality and would shrink.

The best way to develop industry in its early stages is to encourage joint investment projects - allow foreign companies into your country, on the condition that they work alongside your domestic ones. This will give local firms a chance to learn from those foreign companies, in terms of business practice, technology, knowledge of foreign markets etc. This will help them develop the skills they need to become globally competitive.

I never said to shut chinese businesses out completely. Maybe I have expressed myself wrongly, I don't know. But what I meant was that Greece should try to not sell off too much to China. It could prove counterproductive on the long-term and could meet disapproval from the rest of europe and the US.

- I already explained why some Chinese companies prefer to work with each other rather than foreign companies: relationships and trust. You can keep accusing those firms of nationalism if you like but that won't make it true.

Still the same outcome and thus the same detrimental consequences.

- Where are private Chinese enterprises pursuing Chinese government agenda?

Everywhere where technology is to be taken? Everywhere where know-how is to be taken? Everywhere where resources are to be taken? All the companies that have shares owned by the chinese state?
It is widely known, many US corporations cooperate with the NSA, US military and thus the US government as a whole. Why do you think it's uncredible for chinese businesses to do the same?

In my own country, there were suspicions that the NSA was monitoring my country's internet activity. A couple of years ago a belgian telecom company, called Telenet, was taken over by americans facilitating things for the USA. The only competitor to telenet even got hacked by the NSA. According to wikileaks the americans were using the espionage to rig the market in their advantage.
Europe, Greece included, should hold the same fears for China as it does for the USA. In fact Europe should fear China even more as China isn't an ally.

- Your final bullet point seems to be saying that Chinese deals with foreign governments are bad because of long-term effects that we don't actually know about yet. Forgive me for not finding that convincing.

I don't have to find any chinese examples. Economic benchmarks say enough. China is using many of the same tactics Colonialist europe used to use. Just take a look at what europe tried to do to China in the 19th century. They wanted to build railways, take over ports and warehouses, make use of resources, they wanted to introduce western financial sectors to China, etc.

Why did europe (and the US too) do that? If you control the crucial gears in the machine, you control all the rest. You can tamper with economic activity and competitivity in the country, you have an easy access to espionage, ...
And this is especially so in Africa. Because the African leaders are ignorant and corrupt, the africans will gain insufficiently from deals with China. Why? Because not only are african labour forces not allowed to earn wages, due to large chinese immigrations, they are also disallowed to learn important know-how from the Chinese.

And to make it worse, a chinese flux of emigrents to other nations changes local demographics. Just look at how much Russia fears its chinese immigrants in Syberia even though China and Russia are practically allies. Russia is planning a new allocation of demographics to syberia. One of the motivations for this is chinese demographics in the region.

[mrswdk]

I never said to shut chinese businesses out completely. Maybe I have expressed myself wrongly, I don't know. But what I meant was that Greece should try to not sell off too much to China. It could prove counterproductive on the long-term and could meet disapproval from the rest of europe and the US.

And it isn't selling off very much. From what you've said so far Greece appears to have leased one berth in a port to a Chinese company.

But yeah, good point about European and US disapproval. The Greek government probably ought to bear in mind that if it shows too much openness to trade with Russia China then the main Western players will probably agitate for the overthrow of the Ukranian Greek government.

- Where are private Chinese enterprises pursuing Chinese government agenda?

Everywhere where technology is to be taken? Everywhere where know-how is to be taken?

Are you talking about joint ventures where the companies taking part agree to share technological expertise?

Or are you talking about IPR theft, which is nothing to do with any business deal whatsoever?

It is widely known, many US corporations cooperate with the NSA, US military and thus the US government as a whole. Why do you think it's uncredible for chinese businesses to do the same?

In my own country, there were suspicions that the NSA was monitoring my country's internet activity. A couple of years ago a belgian telecom company, called Telenet, was taken over by americans facilitating things for the USA. The only competitor to telenet even got hacked by the NSA. According to wikileaks the americans were using the espionage to rig the market in their advantage.
Europe, Greece included, should hold the same fears for China as it does for the USA. In fact Europe should fear China even more as China isn't an ally.

So Greece should shut out companies from pretty much every other country in the world in case those companies are trying to spy on them?

- Your final bullet point seems to be saying that Chinese deals with foreign governments are bad because of long-term effects that we don't actually know about yet. Forgive me for not finding that convincing.

I don't have to find any chinese examples. Economic benchmarks say enough. China is using many of the same tactics Colonialist europe used to use.

Invasion and annexation?

Just take a look at what europe tried to do to China in the 19th century.

Repeatedly attack it and use military supremacy to force it into agreeing to unfair deals.

And to make it worse, a chinese flux of emigrents to other nations changes local demographics. Just look at how much Russia fears its chinese immigrants in Syberia even though China and Russia are practically allies. Russia is planning a new allocation of demographics to syberia. One of the motivations for this is chinese demographics in the region.

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

[waauw]

And it isn't selling off very much. From what you've said so far Greece appears to have leased one berth in a port to a Chinese company.

But yeah, good point about European and US disapproval. The Greek government probably ought to bear in mind that if it shows too much openness to trade with Russia China then the main Western players will probably agitate for the overthrow of the Ukranian Greek government.

I never said Greece did. I was talking about Greece's future.

Are you talking about joint ventures where the companies taking part agree to share technological expertise?

Or are you talking about IPR theft, which is nothing to do with any business deal whatsoever?

I'm not talking about joint ventures. China is passed the stage of joint ventures and is now actively buying entire corporations or attempting to anyway. On multiple occasions businessdeals have already refused due to political reasons.

So Greece should shut out companies from pretty much every other country in the world in case those companies are trying to spy on them?

Again stop twisting my words. That is not what I'm saying. Protectionism isn't the same as economic isolation.

Invasion and annexation?

Repeatedly attack it and use military supremacy to force it into agreeing to unfair deals.

yes europe used to do that TOO. I'm talking about a very specific selection of methods, not the entirity as you seem to be sugesting. Of course no empire in history is EXACTLY THE SAME as any other empire. But you can judge empires according to their similarities.

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

[GoranZ]

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

I'll answer this better... Russia and Russians have sovereign right to chose what they will do with their land. And their choice can not be classified as ethno-nationalism or xenophobia. I think that even Chinese politicians would not cross that line(opinions in the social media is irrelevant). After all we live in 21st century

[mrswdk]

And it isn't selling off very much. From what you've said so far Greece appears to have leased one berth in a port to a Chinese company.

But yeah, good point about European and US disapproval. The Greek government probably ought to bear in mind that if it shows too much openness to trade with Russia China then the main Western players will probably agitate for the overthrow of the Ukranian Greek government.

I never said Greece did. I was talking about Greece's future.

So you're worried about Greece's relationship with China based on speculation about the future?

Are you talking about joint ventures where the companies taking part agree to share technological expertise?

Or are you talking about IPR theft, which is nothing to do with any business deal whatsoever?

I'm not talking about joint ventures. China is passed the stage of joint ventures and is now actively buying entire corporations or attempting to anyway. On multiple occasions businessdeals have already refused due to political reasons.

So China is buying that technology, except for in some cases where politicians in other countries have blocked the deals for their own paranoid reasons. Still no evidence that we should be putting a black mark against China's name.

So Greece should shut out companies from pretty much every other country in the world in case those companies are trying to spy on them?

Again stop twisting my words. That is not what I'm saying. Protectionism isn't the same as economic isolation.

Well you were just panicking about the possibility of China trying to spy on Greece via Chinese businesses that are operating in Greece, and cited the US doing similar things as your reason for worrying. So what are you suggesting countries like Greece do about that?

Invasion and annexation?

Repeatedly attack it and use military supremacy to force it into agreeing to unfair deals.

yes europe used to do that TOO. I'm talking about a very specific selection of methods, not the entirity as you seem to be sugesting. Of course no empire in history is EXACTLY THE SAME as any other empire. But you can judge empires according to their similarities.

Feel free to try and clearly demonstrate how China's methods of expanding its global trade links around the world are similar to imperial Europe's methods.

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

And your response to local xenophobes spouting racist propaganda is to pander to their fears and pour more ethnically pure people into the region in order to dilute the number of immigrants?

[waauw]

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

[GoranZ]

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

And your response to local xenophobes spouting racist propaganda is to pander to their fears and pour more ethnically pure people into the region in order to dilute the number of immigrants?

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

Do you wonder why she didn't replied on my post, but she chose yours
P.S. I believe that you are in the Chinese trap now

[mrswdk]

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

>cannot come up with a reasonable reply
>avoids self-reflection by accusing other person of being a troll

[mrswdk]

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

And your response to local xenophobes spouting racist propaganda is to pander to their fears and pour more ethnically pure people into the region in order to dilute the number of immigrants?

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

Do you wonder why she didn't replied on my post, but she chose yours
P.S. I believe that you are in the Chinese trap now

It was actually because I was heading out and didn't have enough time to reply to both of you

If the Russian government is deliberately moving white Russians into Siberia to try and dilute the Chinese population then at the very least that shows some pretty major intolerance. There is no rational reason to fear an area of your country becoming racially and culturally diverse.

[Endgame422]

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

>cannot come up with a reasonable reply
>avoids self-reflection by accusing other person of being a troll

Wait are you not trolling him?
I mean you totally hijacked this thread to defend some minor perceived slight to china.
it seemed pretty clear to me he was not attacking china but advocating greek protectionism.
Or maybe your just so used to defending China here(reasonably) that it is the only lens you can look through?
I really thought you were trolling him though to be honest.

[mrswdk]

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

>cannot come up with a reasonable reply
>avoids self-reflection by accusing other person of being a troll

Wait are you not trolling him?
I mean you totally hijacked this thread to defend some minor perceived slight to china.
it seemed pretty clear to me he was not attacking china but advocating greek protectionism.
Or maybe your just so used to defending China here(reasonably) that it is the only lens you can look through?
I really thought you were trolling him though to be honest.

He specifically name-dropped China as being a bad country to trade with and said Greece should avoid them.

I have also been discussing protectionism in a more general sense with him as well.

[waauw]

There's no point in continuing this if you're either deliberately changing my points or just incredibly misunderstanding everything.

[GoranZ]

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

And your response to local xenophobes spouting racist propaganda is to pander to their fears and pour more ethnically pure people into the region in order to dilute the number of immigrants?

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

Do you wonder why she didn't replied on my post, but she chose yours
P.S. I believe that you are in the Chinese trap now

It was actually because I was heading out and didn't have enough time to reply to both of you

If the Russian government is deliberately moving white Russians into Siberia to try and dilute the Chinese population then at the very least that shows some pretty major intolerance.

What? Ethnic Chinese in Russia officially numbered 34,577 according to the 2002 census, and that is negligible number. Ethnic Russians are already majority in the area

There is no rational reason to fear an area of your country becoming racially and culturally diverse.

What Russia and Russians will do with their country is their job, not yours. If you dont agree with their decision its your problem so you can keep it for your self.

[mrswdk]

If you want to use Russian ethno-nationalism and xenophobia as your template then go ahead, but most of the rest of us live in the 21st century.

Seriously? Do you honestly think that large migrations of chinese to other cultures is not going to affect local opinions? Because history shows that large migrations run the risk of increasing racism drastically, especially if it persists for longer periods. Example: islam in europe.

And your response to local xenophobes spouting racist propaganda is to pander to their fears and pour more ethnically pure people into the region in order to dilute the number of immigrants?

Oh great, I've been lurred in mrswdk's troll lair -_-

Do you wonder why she didn't replied on my post, but she chose yours
P.S. I believe that you are in the Chinese trap now

It was actually because I was heading out and didn't have enough time to reply to both of you

If the Russian government is deliberately moving white Russians into Siberia to try and dilute the Chinese population then at the very least that shows some pretty major intolerance.

What? Ethnic Chinese in Russia officially numbered 34,577 according to the 2002 census, and that is negligible number. Ethnic Russians are already majority in the area

There is no rational reason to fear an area of your country becoming racially and culturally diverse.

What Russia and Russians will do with their country is their job, not yours. If you dont agree with their decision its your problem so you can keep it for your self.

I don't really give a shit what Russia does to itself. I was responding to something that waauw said.

[waauw]

What? Ethnic Chinese in Russia officially numbered 34,577 according to the 2002 census, and that is negligible number. Ethnic Russians are already majority in the area

in case you're interested.
And in any case, nobody's really got a clue about how many chinese have migrated into Russia as there has been an increasing number of chinese illegaly moving accross borders, cutting forests among other things.
One of the points mrswdk just seemed to ignore is that migrations, no matter where on the planet, have consequences. This is especially so when the cultures differ. It took europeans and americans(in the broad sense) centuries to conciliate cultures and become multi-cultural societies. And even so, racism is still a very common thing.

http://thediplomat.com/2011/06/china-looms-over-russia-far-east/

While trade has been blossoming, lingering concerns over military technology and worries over an influx of Chinese workers could hurt ties.

Economic forces are currently driving regional ties, but larger scale Chinese immigration into Eastern Russia could revive Russian fears of a Chinese demographic conquest in the region. This issue is particularly sensitive as a sizeable portion of the lands north of the Amur River and the lands east of Jilin and Heilongjiang, which are now part of Russia, were considered Chinese territory for more than 150 years under the terms of the Treaty of Nerchinsk.

[mrswdk]

Economic forces are currently driving regional ties, but larger scale Chinese immigration into Eastern Russia could revive Russian fears of a Chinese demographic conquest in the region.

i.e. it hasn't.

[waauw]

Economic forces are currently driving regional ties, but larger scale Chinese immigration into Eastern Russia could revive Russian fears of a Chinese demographic conquest in the region.

i.e. it hasn't.

The Russian government doesn't plan to mitigate the chinese demographic threat to Syberia purely out of xenophobia. There are political and economic reasons for this as well as cultural.
Chinese influence is already changing eastern russian culture. It's driving an increasing wedge between its east and west. Consequently increasing racism amongst the more traditional Russians in the region. And all this has been attained still with a strong Russian obstruction of chinese immigration. If ever that immigration would rise or economic dependence would rise, the situation would exacerbate.

It's the job of the government to maintain stability in its country and the only way to do so is by implementing proactive measures.

[waauw]

>cannot come up with a reasonable reply
>avoids self-reflection by accusing other person of being a troll

You must be trolling, it's either that or you're dimwitted:

You don't seem to understand the difference between proactive policy and reactive policy.
You don't seem to understand the difference between protectionism and economic isolation.
You don't seem to understand that imperialist europe also used economic means to take over and and control its colonies.
You don't seem to understand xenophobia isn't the only motivation to disapprove of migrations.
You don't seem to understand that because other countries do something wrong that it justifies China doing something wrong.
And before I explained it to you, you didn't even seem to understand how economic expansion inside foreign economies gains you strength.
...

[mrswdk]

Well now you're babbling. If you're just going to make wild, off-the-cuff statements and then refuse to reconsider any of them then we're not going to get anywhere.

I'll look forward to more whiny China-bashing of a similar nature as and when the Minzhu Jiao (also known as the Scarborough Shoal) get their first Chinese flag planted on them. My advice: there's no point getting upset over something you can't change.

[waauw]

Well now you're babbling. If you're just going to make wild, off-the-cuff statements and then refuse to reconsider any of them then we're not going to get anywhere.

I'll look forward to more whiny China-bashing of a similar nature as and when the Minzhu Jiao (also known as the Scarborough Shoal) get their first Chinese flag planted on them. My advice: there's no point getting upset over something you can't change.

I have nothing against China -_-
All I've said until now is that it's dangerous to give up too much domestic power and influence to China.

And if you don't want me upset, stop irritating me with misinterpretations.