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King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

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King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby jghost7 on Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:23 am

Army of GOD - Point Dumping (indefinite ban) [ka]

King Achilles, can you explain why this is Point Dumping vs Intentional Deadbeating? The charge in the OP is Intentional Deadbeating. This charge would seem to fit according to the games shown. Why then would you change it to Point Dumping? I am under the impression that you actually had to have points to dump or some other underhanded thing to accomplish for that to be PD.

Also in your explanation you mention PD and ID as the same thing.
king achilles wrote:The rules are clear about throwing games (i.e. point dumping) and they are forbidden.

They are in fact not the same thing and also are in different classes of punishments.
Intentional Deadbeating is classified as a major, while Point Dumping falls under Special Case Infractions. Special Case Infractions have a harsher code for investigation and punishments.

I do not believe that his actions fell under any of the description listed for PD.

While I do not condone his actions, I do believe that your ruling was harsh and unjustified according to your explanation and the evidence provided.

Thanks,

J
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby lancehoch on Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:05 am

I would say it is the manner in which he is going about losing these games. If I remember correctly, intentional deadbeating is when someone leaves a game that has been partially completed. Here, Army of God had no intention of taking turns from the start. If you go through his last 100 completed 1v1 games, 94 ended in three rounds (I didn't check for how he was eliminated, but I assume he missed all his turns). Of the other six, he was kicked out of two. And, he has not taken a turn in his four active games. His score of 227 would also put him in the bottom 15 on the leaderboard. He doesn't seem to be a bad player, given he has won 41% of his games, so the only reason he is down at 227 is because he wanted to be. That is the definition of point dumping.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:13 am

Let me get this out of the way up front - I do enjoy AoG as a poster and forum denizen. I'm sure I've played CC games with or against him. So you can feel free to accuse me of favoratism. But me liking AoG has nothing to do with this post other than I would not generally have bothered to type this otherwise. As far as I'm concerned, what follows is true for any low-ranked user accused of point dumping.

Based on what I've read, the rule against point dumping is in place for two reasons: (1) protect the integrity of the scoreboard; and/or (2) discourage new users from leaving the site.

The first reason posits that a player that point dumps is giving points away to another user without the second user engaging in a fair contest, thus the second user is gaining an unfair advantage over other users at or near his or her level. My counterargument:

(1) A player of the caliber of a cook does not lose significant points when he or she plays a higher ranked player. Simply put, there are not many points to gain from playing a cook and having the cook deadbeat. Therefore, the integrity of the scoreboard is not really in jeopardy. For exmaple, the difference between the #1 ranked overall player (Kaskavel) and the #2 ranked overall player (random21) is 99 points. I do not believe random21 would win 99 points in a game against AoG. There is a 1 point difference betwen the #17 ranked overall player (PaulatPeace) and the #18 ranked overall player (Lex Usi).

This is further shown by looking at the games that a point dumper may play and, more importantly, who the point dumper is playing against. In my X years at CC, I've seen most point dumping cases take on an element of favoritism. The point dumper is dumping points to his or her favored players. Let's take AoG's case. Did AoG know any of the users to whom he point dumped? Did he have reason, whether through friendship or otherwise, have a reason to dump points to particular users? As far as I can tell, AoG did not know any of the users and none of those users were in any of his clans or usergroups. Thus, I propose that AoG has no reason to point dump to those particular players. AoG did not engage in this practice to have certain people climb up the scoreboard.

Additionally, AoG did not, to my knowledge, make it public knowledge that he was point dumping; thus, no one could "take advantage" of that situation. For example, I'm in a number of usergroups with the guy and I had no idea. Thus, Lex Usi did not have the opportunity to sully the integrity of the scoreboard by playing AoG a couple of times to gain the requisite points to overtake PaulatPeace on the scoreboard.

(2) I chuckle every time a high ranked player accuses a low ranked player of something with the proposition that what the low ranked player is doing will discourge new users from staying on the site. Without getting into a full discussion about this and with only anecdotal evidence, new users don't leave the site because a player in a game deadbeats and the new user wins points. New users leave this site because of the extreme complexity of the games and because they will lose consistently to higher ranked players that take advantage of their experience to take points from new recruits. It happened when I was a new recruit with far less game options... many of my real life friends and relatives stopped playing almost immediately after joining for this very reason. The biggest harm to new users is not point dumping; it's experienced users looking to "protect the integrity of the scoreboard" by playing new users to get some easy points.

Anecdotal evidence aside, someone quoted something in the range of 30% of new users deadbeating. This, in and of itself, negates the reasoning that new recruits will be harmed by point dumping. Further, and again I can only speak for myself, if I was a new recruit and a cook joined my game and I won because the cook deadbeated, I would say, "Cool. I won some points. On to the next game." I would not say, "Well this site sucks because this cook deadbeated. I'm leaving and never returning." To suggest anything different is ridiculous, but I can't speak for others.

What follows next is not meant to denigrate what I've written prior to this. As I said above, I like AoG as a forum goer. His contribution to this site does not lie in his game play. It lies in the entertainment he provides in the forum. Therefore, banning him from games would be sufficient to "protect the integrity of the scoreboard." Banning him from the forums does nothing productive other than punishing the forum goers who enjoy his posts.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby _sabotage_ on Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:31 am

In September I believe, sdh had opened tens of 1 minute speed games and was not playing any of them. I mentioned this in global chat. The games were then quickly erased, although several had been played. He'd lost several hundred points before he could be stopped. This is how my wife got me banned last January. I received a six month ban. sdh? De nada. He was still playing the next day, next week, next month and now.

No one put up a report on sdh. But clearly the mods were erasing the games. Clearly he was point dumping and clearly being punished is extremely arbitrary.

What AOG did was no worse than sdh. None of the players involved complained. AOG "dumped" far fewer points than sdh.

While it doesn't justify AoG, it does put what he did in context and it does make the punishment seem unnecessarily harsh.

I agree with TGD, the ban should not be a site ban, but a game ban.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby notyou2 on Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:36 am

Hear hear!!
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:05 am

so is it considered point dumping if i join all kind of speed games on luxembourg versus stripers?
it's just a coin flip and i'm basically risking to lose 8 times more points that I could earn. So i'm basically joining games where it's like saying I owe you 80 bucks if it's tails and you owe me 10 bucks if it's heads.
AOG was giving away 2-5 points per user each time to different people encountered randomly. this changes shit all to scores; no one really calculates if he'll win 14pts or 18pts by winning a game. By playing luck speed games I'm affecting the scoreboard way more than AOG, I've lost over 600 points in a few days.
But hey, since no points games are not allowed on this site, then if i want to have a little fun playing legit speed games I have to "point dump". pretty retarded.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:32 pm

It was point dumping.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:52 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:It was point dumping.


Point DumpingIf you are found guilty of Point Dumping, that is, the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of causing chaos in the form of griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score.

Note: Because of the nature of Point Dumping, your account will be suspended upon discovery, and will remain suspended to protect the account and the website during the investigation. The Investigative Suspension is not factored into Disciplinary Time Served.

Point Dumping Infraction disciplinary levels are as follows:1.1 Month Website Vacation

2.Permanent Website Vacation
Note: Users retain the right to rebuttal via E-tickets as with any Infraction.


I focus your attention on the following language - "with the intention of causing chaos." Did AoG have the intention to cause chaos? You will likely call to my attention the "mannually resetting points to a lower score" element. However, one must first have the intention of causing chaos element. Then the question becomes did the person who intentionally caused chaos do so via "griefing," or "passing points to other people" or "manually resetting points to a lower score." Just because AoG manually reset his points to a lower score does not mean he was point dumping. He must also have the intention of causing chaos. As I demonstrated above, AoG did not cause chaos.

Perhaps he had the intention of manually lowering his score... again, I don't know because he didn't tell me or anyone else he was point dumping (which, in the past, is the impetus for a point dumping charge). But, again, this is not the standard by which a valid point dumping charge is made. There must be an intent to cause chaos.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:01 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:It was point dumping.


Point DumpingIf you are found guilty of Point Dumping, that is, the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of causing chaos in the form of griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score.

Note: Because of the nature of Point Dumping, your account will be suspended upon discovery, and will remain suspended to protect the account and the website during the investigation. The Investigative Suspension is not factored into Disciplinary Time Served.

Point Dumping Infraction disciplinary levels are as follows:1.1 Month Website Vacation

2.Permanent Website Vacation
Note: Users retain the right to rebuttal via E-tickets as with any Infraction.


I focus your attention on the following language - "with the intention of causing chaos." Did AoG have the intention to cause chaos? You will likely call to my attention the "mannually resetting points to a lower score" element. However, one must first have the intention of causing chaos element. Then the question becomes did the person who intentionally caused chaos do so via "griefing," or "passing points to other people" or "manually resetting points to a lower score." Just because AoG manually reset his points to a lower score does not mean he was point dumping. He must also have the intention of causing chaos. As I demonstrated above, AoG did not cause chaos.

Perhaps he had the intention of manually lowering his score... again, I don't know because he didn't tell me or anyone else he was point dumping (which, in the past, is the impetus for a point dumping charge). But, again, this is not the standard by which a valid point dumping charge is made. There must be an intent to cause chaos.


His intent was to get to 0 points.

I have a signed confession... what do you have? A law degree?
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:10 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:His intent was to get to 0 points.


Yes. And? The intent to get zero points is not against the rules. The intent to cause chaos combined with manually resetting to zero is against the rules. If you have a signed confession from AoG saying "I intended to cause chaos. Thus, I manually reset my score to zero" then I'm good.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:14 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:His intent was to get to 0 points.


Yes. And? The intent to get zero points is not against the rules. The intent to cause chaos combined with manually resetting to zero is against the rules. If you have a signed confession from AoG saying "I intended to cause chaos. Thus, I manually reset my score to zero" then I'm good.

Besides it's a fucking or statement.

causing chaos OR
passing points OR
resetting points
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:33 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:His intent was to get to 0 points.


Yes. And? The intent to get zero points is not against the rules. The intent to cause chaos combined with manually resetting to zero is against the rules. If you have a signed confession from AoG saying "I intended to cause chaos. Thus, I manually reset my score to zero" then I'm good.

Besides it's a fucking or statement.

causing chaos OR
passing points OR
resetting points


No, it's not.

"The intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of causing chaos"
"In the form of griefing, passing points to other people, or manually resetting points to a lower score."

It's not "cause chaos" or "griefing" or "passing points" or "manually resetting." It's "griefing" or "passing points" or "manually resetting" with the prerequisite of "the intention of causing chaos."

And yes, I read the rule before I posted precisely because I wanted to make sure.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby lancehoch on Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:46 pm

thegreekdog, you are wrong and DoomYoshi is correct. CC defines "causing chaos" as "griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score." If replace "causing chaos" with "doing bad things" in the sentence, it has the same meaning. You are getting stuck on a word, "chaos," that doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Per CC, "point dumping" is "the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of . . . manually 'resetting' points to a lower score." That's what AoG did. There really is no argument here.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby owenshooter on Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:09 pm

jghost7 wrote:Army of GOD - Point Dumping (indefinite ban) [ka]

King Achilles, can you explain why this is Point Dumping vs Intentional Deadbeating?



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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby king achilles on Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:45 pm

lancehoch wrote:thegreekdog, you are wrong and DoomYoshi is correct. CC defines "causing chaos" as "griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score." If replace "causing chaos" with "doing bad things" in the sentence, it has the same meaning. You are getting stuck on a word, "chaos," that doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Per CC, "point dumping" is "the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of . . . manually 'resetting' points to a lower score." That's what AoG did. There really is no argument here.

- thanks Lance.

==========================

Also, there is no such thing as "Game Banning" and being able to still post in the forums. It's either a website ban or a forum ban. So for those of you requesting a "game ban", make a suggestion to the programmers so we can have some peace of mind. Thank you AoG for making some people come up with this as opposed to those other PD cases we had before.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby demonfork on Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:58 pm

king achilles wrote:
lancehoch wrote:thegreekdog, you are wrong and DoomYoshi is correct. CC defines "causing chaos" as "griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score." If replace "causing chaos" with "doing bad things" in the sentence, it has the same meaning. You are getting stuck on a word, "chaos," that doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Per CC, "point dumping" is "the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of . . . manually 'resetting' points to a lower score." That's what AoG did. There really is no argument here.

- thanks Lance.

==========================

Also, there is no such thing as "Game Banning" and being able to still post in the forums. It's either a website ban or a forum ban. So for those of you requesting a "game ban", make a suggestion to the programmers so we can have some peace of mind. Thank you AoG for making some people come up with this as opposed to those other PD cases we had before.


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Thanks for keeping everyone in check KA. I'm proud of you and all of your punishment based accomplishments here at CC. Keep up the good work!
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:57 pm

king achilles wrote:Thank you AoG for making some people come up with this as opposed to those other PD cases we had before.


I think if you asked AoG, he would he tell you he's not making me do anything. I don't like bullies or self-importance. butters1919 fits at least one or both of those things. And I'm also kind of an asshole. So, let's see what happens.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby BoganGod on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:06 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
king achilles wrote:Thank you AoG for making some people come up with this as opposed to those other PD cases we had before.


I think if you asked AoG, he would he tell you he's not making me do anything. I don't like bullies or self-importance. butters1919 fits at least one or both of those things. And I'm also kind of an asshole. So, let's see what happens.


You are what you eat..... So am intrigued by the above comment. Prairie dog anus maybe? Could it be that AoG wanted himself site banned? So possibly he could attempt a productive life.
This is one case that appears to be a clear, logical and valid implementation of the rules. Unlike me getting a vacation because BB thought I was literally accusing him of physically violating computer code. If some could literally rape a program in that meaning of the word, there would be a great market in microsoft windows Vista rape booths. Just saying
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:10 pm

lancehoch wrote:thegreekdog, you are wrong and DoomYoshi is correct. CC defines "causing chaos" as "griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score." If replace "causing chaos" with "doing bad things" in the sentence, it has the same meaning. You are getting stuck on a word, "chaos," that doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Per CC, "point dumping" is "the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of . . . manually 'resetting' points to a lower score." That's what AoG did. There really is no argument here.


Okay. A few things.

First, this is a simple exercise in reading comprehension. You have not passed this exercise.

Second, CC does not define the term chaos. I've quoted the rule above and there is no definition of chaos or "causing chaos."

Third, I'm not getting stuck on the word "chaos." I know what chaos means. It actually doesn't mean "doing bad things."

Fourth, I'm focused on two things. First, the word "intention" as it is applied to "chaos." Did AoG intentionally mean to cause chaos. Nevermind whether he actually caused chaos... is that what he intended to do? Second, I'm not suggesting he was not manually resetting his points to a lower score. And I'm not suggesting that he isn't intentionally manually resetting his points to a lower score. I'm saying he's not intentionally causing chaos.

If the rule is "losing games on purpose" then he should be banned. That's not the rule. Further, when I asked why we cared about AoG point dumping I received two responses. butters1919 was concerned with AoG's behavior turning new members away. king achilles was concerned about the integrity of the scoreboard. No one has yet responded to me as to why AoG's behavior turns new members away. No one has adequately responded as to why AoG's actions affected the integrity of the scoreboard.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:12 pm

BoganGod wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
king achilles wrote:Thank you AoG for making some people come up with this as opposed to those other PD cases we had before.


I think if you asked AoG, he would he tell you he's not making me do anything. I don't like bullies or self-importance. butters1919 fits at least one or both of those things. And I'm also kind of an asshole. So, let's see what happens.


You are what you eat..... So am intrigued by the above comment. Prairie dog anus maybe?


Don't knock it if you've never tried it.

BoganGod wrote:Could it be that AoG wanted himself site banned? So possibly he could attempt a productive life.


I doubt it.

BoganGod wrote:This is one case that appears to be a clear, logical and valid implementation of the rules. Unlike me getting a vacation because BB thought I was literally accusing him of physically violating computer code. If some could literally rape a program in that meaning of the word, there would be a great market in microsoft windows Vista rape booths. Just saying


Oh, sorry. Do you want me to start a thread about you?
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby lancehoch on Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:11 pm

thegreekdog wrote:If the rule is "losing games on purpose" then he should be banned. That's not the rule. Further, when I asked why we cared about AoG point dumping I received two responses. butters1919 was concerned with AoG's behavior turning new members away. king achilles was concerned about the integrity of the scoreboard. No one has yet responded to me as to why AoG's behavior turns new members away. No one has adequately responded as to why AoG's actions affected the integrity of the scoreboard.

The rule is "losing games on purpose."

butters1919 is not a mod and his response is not the official response of CC. KA's response about the integrity of the scoreboard is. No, AoG did not necessarily "directly" affect the top of the scoreboard, as you pointed out before, but he did affect the scoreboard as a whole. By all rights, his score should be about the same as mine, but instead, he is 1/5 that. He also gave points to a bunch of players who didn't necessarily deserve them. That in turn changes the point transfers in every game those players have played since and will play in the future. At some point in the future, at least one of those ill-gotten points will make its way to the Conqueror. So, yes, it affected the scoreboard.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:37 pm

Hmm... you did not say the rule was "losing games on purpose" in your first post. Since you, like butters1919, are also not a moderator, should I ignore your first explanation or second explanation or both? In any event...

lancehoch wrote:butters1919 is not a mod and his response is not the official response of CC. KA's response about the integrity of the scoreboard is. No, AoG did not necessarily "directly" affect the top of the scoreboard, as you pointed out before, but he did affect the scoreboard as a whole. By all rights, his score should be about the same as mine, but instead, he is 1/5 that. He also gave points to a bunch of players who didn't necessarily deserve them. That in turn changes the point transfers in every game those players have played since and will play in the future. At some point in the future, at least one of those ill-gotten points will make its way to the Conqueror. So, yes, it affected the scoreboard.


Admittedly, I'm not the best in determining how a scoreboard would be affected by a cook dumping 226 points to a variety of different levels of players. So I can't make a mathematical determination as to whether your theory is correct. It does make sense that eventually AoG's 226 points will in some way affect the integrity of the scoreboard, albeit at a lower level.

Regardless, we do not ban new users who deadbeat. We don't ban experienced users who deadbeat, unless they are dumping points to someone they know. I think this is an unfair decision where the CC team needs to use some better judgment than saying "AoG violated a rule by losing games on purpose, therefore we need to ban him from the website." I retired from moderating a long time ago and under a previous boss (Andy) and owner, so I don't know what's changed or why; however, when I was a moderator we used judgment in administering punishments to users and, generally, we thought about the net result to the website. Would CC be positively or negatively affected if we engaged in X with Y punishment? So my question is whether there would be a net positive result or a net negative result from banning AoG?

Does the benefit of not having 226 points be distributed amongst various users who did not deserve them outweigh the detriment of losing an extremely active and well-liked forum goer? As KA put it (I didn't know this, so thanks KA), AoG can't be banned from playing games and allowed to post. So we are at an impasse.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby lancehoch on Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:02 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Hmm... you did not say the rule was "losing games on purpose" in your first post. Since you, like butters1919, are also not a moderator, should I ignore your first explanation or second explanation or both? In any event...

How does one go about "manually 'resetting' points to a lower score" without "losing games on purpose." And, no I am not a mod, but KA is and he agreed with my post above.

thegreekdog wrote:Regardless, we do not ban new users who deadbeat.

(a) Generally, they don't come back, so there is no point in banning them.
(b) They can only join 2 games at a time. AoG deadbeated out of 90+ games.

thegreekdog wrote:We don't ban experienced users who deadbeat, unless they are dumping points to someone they know.

It's a matter of scale. If someone deadbeats out of one or two games, that's not good. But, 90+ is a problem.

thegreekdog wrote:So my question is whether there would be a net positive result or a net negative result from banning AoG?

I think it's a net positive. AoG is a better player than that and if/when he decides to come back he is going to mess up people's scores for a while until he gets back to the right score. It also tells other people that they can't participate in that form of activity. If you're going to play, just play. If you're going to deadbeat, just go to the forums and leave the games for someone else.
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby iAmCaffeine on Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:38 am

Just to clarify a couple of things.

@TGD - players are banned for point dumping, not for deadbeating.

@lancehoch - AoG was a cook before this started.
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Cook iAmCaffeine
 
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Re: King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

Postby lancehoch on Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:59 am

iAmCaffeine wrote:Just to clarify a couple of things.

@TGD - players are banned for point dumping, not for deadbeating.

@lancehoch - AoG was a cook before this started.

That depends on when you think this "started." He has been deadbeating out of games since at least 2011 (Game 10289293). Those games don't list what someone's starting score was, but he was relatively close in rank to ICQ!. If, instead, you consider Game 14031916 to be the start, then yes he was a cook at the time.

I think you need to go back to those games in 2011.
Sergeant lancehoch
 
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