StorrZerg wrote:@strike wolf
I feel like you arent really reading PCM's posts when you respond. Otherwise you would know that hs is responding as he is reading and why it feels like it is behind. Youd also know that he doesnt like responding to comments made within quotes.
again... i understand his post style. and while i opened up criticizing him for being behind, i was doing the same thing he was. I was making comments in the post as i read them. With a conclusion at the end. I have 0 issue with him posting that way. I often do it myself. its jsut very weird that he is neglecting conversations that are happening about what he is talking about, and not going over critical information about his theories. Even if PCm doesn't give a rats ass about my comments in posts, that doesn't mean other people won't read it and comment.
i made remarks at the end of the post which he didn't read.
So strike wolf, what do you have to say about his posts? is this a town pcm, thats playing and im being over critical of his play? or is there some agreement in the analysis im bringing? (or neither idc what is it?)
@zivel care to comment?
Right now I am mostly neutral on PCM leaning slightly town. I was reading him slightly scummy earlier but I am not confident about that now. As far as your analysis. I think it's a BS analysis which at best is being overaggressive over small faults or manipulative scum tactic. Your response that you were doing what he was doing seems BS as well. At best you were being manipulative in the way you used it.
Just the segments of your response that are in reply to PCM and the conclusion because otherwise this post is going to take me too long to write. If you need more detail about what was being discussed at points, I recommend opening a second window and looking at the original post in response:
StorrZerg wrote:its probably true. I think the reads by themselves that you develped off what i call mechanics, can be ok, when died with something else. but that alone i can't relate to.
Not much to say here.
you probably should. it looked like an incredibly late comment, to a subject that had resolved itself, + add in following posts that seemed to repeat the same behavior made it look worse.
Again meh.
ok? you recall when people pushed against my reads? i kept fighting, kept trying to make people see the way i saw things. Or maybe my read was misguided, so now i've cleared up a wrong impulse who knows. Seems more like an reason to not continue your pressure.
Again don't have too much to say on this right now. I'd have to specifically look back on somethings about this point which I don't have time to right now. Other than that, your first three points here seem as about differing play styles as scummy vs townish.
Is it a thing? who else has done it besides my got game? and why are you talking about opposite alignments. Fairly certain all lover pairs claimed to know for certain they are all the same alignment.
It has been done. It used to actually be the norm for lover pairings to be one town one scum, however this also usually meant the opposite alignment lover could win with his lover's alignment in certain end game scenarios if they were still alive.
This is the big thing, that makes me feel you are really behind in this game. tons of discussion has been had about lovers, and it seems you are just looking into it, with out reading the developments
Yeah. He said he was doing this earlier. This shouldn't be surprising.
again its even more clear this post is being written as you read the game, you haven't caught up to the discussion, and i really don't think you are adding anything productive with this, it just looks like a big fluffy post
I don't really like how you say this like you figured it out yourself. Pancake mentioned he was doing this. Maybe you missed that fact when he said it earlier in the game but this just rubs me the wrong way. I don't really see as much fluff here as you do. Seems like Pancake is addressing things as he reads them, maybe he doesn't comment on everything but he goes into some of the details and he made a point in regards to Streaker "pounding the hammer" on the Ultra case which was kind of ignored in game. I don't think that's a complete throwaway line.
yeah
yet we are not even certain lovers die as pairs, since none of them are sure if they both die if one dies...
You have a point but considering that it's the standard lover definition that they die together (which was not at this point contested by Virus), I think it's mor e than reasonable for Pancake to assume that this is the case in this scenario. It is true that you don't make a direct accusation against PCM here but you seem to be leading up to it. Maybe it slipped your mind that this information hadn't come up in game when PCM wrote this part but that seems like something that you could have checked before making this statement. It kind of seems to me you are holding PCM to an unfair standard in this statement.
can you explain pcm how they could be different alignments, when they are certain they are the same alignment?
This at least does hold true.
This isn't picking on, and this shouldn't be a surprise. YOu had been under pressure from him, you made a good post, relieving pressure, and so further involvment of you shouldn't be a surprise.
Feels like overreacting from Storr. He made a joke. Get over it.
I can agree with the last statement, he def makes virus look more and more like the lynch with this talk.
Overall this post is very weird from pcm. Sure it shows him posting while reading the game, and updating his thoughts. but nothing is new from this post. its almost like giant filler. He has missed key points about the lvoers claiming to be same aligned, and many of the questions he has has all ready been asked. I see no conclusion from the situation as well, or what direction he wants to go about this. (considering he unvoted)
Some of this is fair. Some of this not so much. He did miss the lover-same alignment thing. I see some clear conclusions though. Ultra and virus are likely scum is one of them. That Ultra is likely holding something back is another and wanting to know more. As far as direction. Not completely fair to hold that against him. You've been pretty undecided much of the game yourself. I've been undecided for much of the game and at the point of this post was still undecided about the case. That said, PCM doesn't appear in this post to be sitting in idle. He is questioning the situation, he questions virus, he questions streaker. These look to me of attempts at figuring out the situation and looking for a direction to proceed. Your case kind of ignored those aspects of PCM's post.
I also asked pcm to make a case/push someone else. i didn't care if he kept his vote on ultra or not. He didn't follow through. Sure he didn't say he would, but if we look at how he stands in the game, we don't know where he stands. If we don't lynch a lover, who would we lynch? For all the ground he gained in the post that satisfied myself, he just back peddled a great deal with this post...
This feels like you are holding PCM to a standard that you haven't established for everyone in the game. Don't know where he stands? At this point I would say it is fairly clear he stands anti-Ultra and there's enough evidence out there to say that he is unsure about some of what Streaker has been doing. Do we know everything about his position? No. I think that's true of a lot of the people in this game. So in conclusion, I think your conclusion is mostly bs.
Your intro bothers me just as much considering that you seem to have made it after reading PCM's post.
why does it always feel that you are so behind in the game..
The reason this feels so bad to me is that it changes the entire complexion of your response. My responses above are all the best I could imitate of me responding to your comments as you went through them with the intro it takes on a much more accusing tone and it's misleading considering how you say you realized that PCM is responding as he reads.
So my analysis of your PCM post. I think you saw someone posting in a manner that you thought you could manipulate and trick town into thinking it was scummier than it actually was. I disagree with Pancake. I don't think it had anything to do with you wanting to take out someone who could go toe to toe with you as mafia usually tries to leave that in the night kills though perhaps getting town to go after a good player did present an extra thrill.
StorrZerg wrote:@zivel, now i'd love to know who your partner is. since i do think you are town, how ever i understand why its probably for the best to not announce that yet.
This statement is scummy as hell (Note I don't have anything against the rest of his post so don't have anything to say on it). I don't really feel your follow up reasoning was much better:
eah more so that i'd have another town person when he does out. since, he claims they have been quite active in their convos. Thus lots of information being said, when they do out, this kind of thing imo is hard to fake. its alot easier to state "hey we had different time zones so didnt say much" or just not use it at all. + i wanted to give my stance on him and his partner, even though its someone i don't know yet.
You are correct that it is difficult to fake but we still are not sure that lovers won't die together and despite the logic that Rishaed may have something else planned and that's why he's being evasive, I am not ready to buy that lovers don't die together. Zivel's lover outing now would do more harm than good. We know that Zivel's lover is a power role. Even with this game being non-vanilla. Now considering the scenarios. If we don't lynch ultra, virus or any of the lovers and all lovers are town, mafia most likely won't target ultra or virus just because they are top scum candidate for town and if they did, town is likely willing to let that happen and thus at the very least not bother taking steps to protect Ultra who would be an unlikely target anyways. Mafia as well might not feel comfortable with the risk-reward chance of Zivel or DD being protected. Mafia could go with one of three options: 1. go with the safe choice where they are pretty much confirmed to get at least one kill. Not really important for the current theoretical situation. 2. Shoot Zivel or DD and hope that they aren't protected. Lowered chance of successful hit ratio. 3. Go with an unclaimed and hope that they are one of the lover pairs. Option 1 is not really as much of a concern for the protective roles in this game. The outcome is already known and with the scumminess around them, it seems only AoG and Mtam would be overly-concerned about preventing it. Option 2. Is more risky for the lovers but only if the targeted one is not protected. Option 3. Go for an unclaimed is problematic as far as protecting non-lovers but it still more likely thwarts any mafia attempt at a two for one. The same logic applies if Ultra/virus are mafia just disregarding option 1 or DD is mafia disregarding any attempt at killing him. Any scenario where Zivel is scum would mean his partner is as well but that's unlikely to be a factor unless town lynches Zivel and finds out that he was scum and proceed to follow through on the partner which isn't likely to happen soon considering that most believe that Zivel is the most townie of the claimed lovers. However if Zivel's lover is exposed than mafia basically gets another shot at hitting one of the claimed lover pairs. Sure you can get a town read on a player (which frankly is a bit overrated as it doesn't make that big of a difference unless it turns out to be someone who looked scummy beforehand) but the risk reward is still off. I don't like you even mentioning it.
StorrZerg wrote:Ultra is never lynched today. It's 100% you over him.
It absolutely does town no good if you both are town. Since we lose a town on "seeing if it's true " and if it is true, we really lack leads on day 2...
If you are mafia, why would we follow your suggestions on ultra lynch.
If you ever have the option to die for ultra you are forced to take it. Since not taking it would leave doubt in this whole mess.
So you need to start presenting something else...
Agreed as far as why would we follow the ultra case if he's mafia. I think Virus dying if they are town though does prove more than you give it credit it for. There's a lot of people tied up in this. DD and Zivel for starters (I am kind of flipping my position on this from earlier. If Ultra and/or Virus flipped town, I would expect DD to be scum and Zivel to be town; Ultra/virus flipping scum would provide less insight into Zivel and DD.) Ultra's & Virus' alignment also has implications for Streaker, Mtam and to a lesser extent anyone who pushed for his lynch. So why are you pushing that we'd really lack leads day 2?
StorrZerg wrote:Why is zivel most likely town, and even if 3rd party, his win conditions are likely the same as towns.
His style of play compared to the 2 other lover claims. He is active, he is scum hunting. He is giving reads, and proactive.
His counter claim was very townie. A mafia cc wouldn't make much sense, if ultra was lynched and flipped town, he is gunned next. Not a good trade of 2 for 2.
His counter claim also includes information that he had an additional power and his partner has one as well.
Claiming his qt is active. More than likely it's discussion on the game, trying to figure things out which lines up with how he is playing. This is something hard to do as 2 mafia, being active on both fronts, not to mention again, being ok to cc ultra.
His discussion isn't limited, he is open to new paths. He isn't tunneling on ultra, his follow up on pcm is good to.
He read pcm as mafia, revaluation of pcm. Wasn't quite sure, asked pcm a question after. Imo this is a townie trait of zivel. He is still trying to figure out pcm, hence the question which was more of a prompt to get pcm to add discussion on the subject.
I agree that Zivel seems townie but I think most of the players in the game do as well at the moment thus why he has the least amount of negative discussion regarding the lovers issue.
StorrZerg wrote:crasp wrote:Not sure what these big posts with all the quotes are all about other than to throw confusion into the mix. I keep trying to make sense of this Virus/Ultra thing but it consistenly changes. Started off as lovers who didint know each other affiliation and accused each other of scum. then as DD and zivel came in it develops into something else, Next up they dont know if they are lovers and if both die, but even if they do Virus is a reviver and can save Ultra if he wants to. Now we have this claim from virus that actually has a bodyguard role and that he can chose if he wants to use it or not and then hints that ultra has some kind of super role that will take effect if he takes the bullet for him but its not his place to reveal this.
I am also not sure how finding out who DD and Zivels claimed lovers are does anything more than help scum narrow down town power roles.
Right now i see towns choices are either lynch or protect Ultra. This is a mafia dream. Day one and we have 4 claims, possibly all town and a possibility of losing all 6.
@Storr, i know you are looking for more input from me but i havent got a clue where to go with this.
thats fine that you don't know where to go... most of us don't and thats why we are trying to figure things out...
Yeah it's only an issue when Pancake doesn't know where to go.
the big posts, not sure who you are referring to... are you even reading them? and you just label them all as trying to cause confusion... what happened to the crasp early on that was trying... this post is just a bunch of "pitty me"
town should 100% NOT be protecting ultra in the night or virus. we have 0 clue whats going on with them, considering ultra WANTS to be lynched.
I can agree to this statement about not protecting Ultra.
As far as the whole "Narrow down power roles" debacle that got into it between Storr, Pancake and Crasp...It kind of seemed like Storr tried to dodge going back into his role fish when asked about Zivel's partner. Let's also not forget that just because this game is non-vanilla doesn't mean every townie has a power role.
StorrZerg wrote:As for DD, I dunno. You tell me. You were looking for his opinion on me, he gave you your opinion. Isn't saying what's already been said what you're on me for? It's only not okay when I do it?
he responded with similar opinions of mine about a new post you brought up. So i wouldn't say its the same.
So you trust him? You like the way he's posting? Kind of seems like a split hair difference. "Similar" "Same."
StorrZerg wrote:You are responding to things you are "discovering for the first time" with out including those who commented on it before, and missing key points that developed after it and not including it in your post.
I have 0 issue, with posting about things when you are catching up. The thing is how you are doing it is weird, because after you catch up, you still missed important information, and claims about roles from people. Like you went on about how they are not really lovers since they dont die together. When its been stated, they don't know if they die together, because mod wouldn't confirm that they die together.
Can you at least acknowledge that Pancake acknowledged you questioning this and gave a reason. Disagreeing with the reason is fine but you haven't addressed why you disagree with the reason.
My only comment on his next post to PCM would be the same as the response I just gave.
That said, I think my biggest problem with your recent posts (particularly in handling the PCM one yes but overall), it seems like you are missing or ignoring a lot of details that normally you would notice. Also some of the people who did similar things as pancake or even worse got a slap on the wrist while you went after him. Perhaps you were tunneling and going into too far into it but your play today does not really seem like the play you've had in other games where I know you were town. Some of the elements are there but a lot of it just seems like it is for show.
Regarding Hotshot: Want to hear more from him. Some of the allegations that Storr has claimed against PCM seem more aptly applied to Hotshot. Won't get into it as he is not my lead scum candidate (or my top 3 even).
Regarding Mtam: Not sure if just inactive or scummy. Seems disinterested.
Regarding the Cult theory: Maybe but honestly if we are assuming three town lover pairings, it seems an SK game would be more likely and the 3 pairs of people who die together are there to help balance it out. So maybe Nark's theory wasn't as crazy as I thought?
Regarding Zivel: Strong townie read. I'll get into why more when I get to AoG
Regarding Ultra/Virus: I am starting to actually think that they are town as well. Looking at the claim objectively, they are actually more in line with what Zivel claims and vice versa than DD is. There was disagreement over whether the lovers died between them but it has since been clarified by Zivel and DD that that information was not confirmed by mod so that oddity worked itself out.
Regarding AoG: Don't like his posts. Seems to operate too much on the assumption that Ultra and Virus are telling the complete truth already.
2. Zivel (has power that we don't know of yet)/????? (has power that we don't know of yet) - Zivel says they're both confirmed town...ok...why should we believe that? I believe that lovers in this game are the same alignment but why should we take Zivel's word for it that they're both town?
This is kind of nitpicking. Zivel appears to have information that has been confirmed by the other claimed lover pairs in this game so we can at least conclude that he is telling the truth about some of what he says. From there the fact that he has been so open about some of this information does lead town as a counter claim becomes riskier as the information begins to not line up. Since Zivel has information about the lover mechanics that line up, it is safe to say that he wasn't lying about being a lover. Could be scum but seems unlikely everything considered so I don't see how out of the three lover sets Zivel is the least townie.
the point I'm poorly making is that if ultra and virus were both scum, it would be a horrifically bad play to come out as lovers. I just feel as if zivel and dd are protecting their lovers' identities because they know that lovers are same alignment and they don't want to screw their other half over.
Umm really? there are plenty of reasons for town lovers not to out their other halves, like give up important town members who mafia can target. We still don't know for sure that lovers don't die in pairs and exposing their lovers potentially just gives mafia that much more chance to get a two for one shot. As I said earlier, we don't have enough protective roles to protect every lover if they are exposed. There's nothing scummy about Zivel and DD hiding their lovers. Now the other half of your argument you may have a point and I will get more into that when I get into Ultra and Virus.
also the fact that ultra/virus got counter claimed means nothing to me. zivel and dd could've just done it thinking "oh, I am scum but I am a lover pair also, maybe I can convince the town I am non-scum by counter claiming".
Risky move at best. Let's say that they are a lover pair. Zivel is scum lover and sees it. He counter claims. Let's say he is operating under the assumption that lovers die together. He maybe can get the counter claim to work (not necessarily) but then town turns on him and he is lynched the next day (the most probable answer). Zivel just traded 3 townies for 2 mafia. math that doesn't add up as being beneficial to mafia on Day 1.
Even if we consider that Zivel was just mafia not mafia lover. He can't be sure he wouldn't be forced to reveal his "lover" to town to back up his story or what the details of the lover claim might be. If Ultra had come back with a highly believable role (say cop), than it would be Zivel's head on the chopping block.
Regarding DD: So you are claiming Romeo/Juliet? Don't think it hurts town to come out and say "Yes my partner and I are Romeo and Juliet".
And I just realized this post (With distractions) took me almost 5 hours to write and I didn't even finish it. Thank you insomnia.
Fast...err...slow? posted by Streaker and TFO
