Why is god mysterious?

[Guiscard]

there is always a spark of good in every awful situation

First off, this point highlights my argument that good and bad are a matter of perspective. Secondly, you are again subjecting God to your personal expectations. The question is what is our goal in life? For most people, the response would be to be happy, to find happiness and contentment. I argue that God has already given every person the capacity to find happiness and contentment. Beyond that, the providing of life's luxuries is inconsequential, and therefore beyond the purview of God's concern. Suffering is in and of itself a refusal to accept what is. Every time I am unhappy, worried, scared, I find happiness through a recognition and appreciation of what I have and through acceptance of where I am and what challenges I face. I, admittedly, have not faced major personal challenges (i.e. disease, unemployment, homelessness, etc.), so it's easy for me to use this approach because most of the things I have managed to come to acceptance with have been pretty easy to accept, in the grand scheme. That is likely not the case for many others, but it doesn't change the fact that acceptance is the road to happiness. So the only real way for God to help us find happiness would be to force us to accept our lives as they are, to accept every moment. That would unavoidably controvert free will (another wondrous, though challenging, gift), so he does not do it. I would argue that God is there for us at all points at all times, but it is up to us whether we see and accept him or not.

The immense suffering and pain that you mention is not up to God. It is up to us because we have free will. What is it that you would have God provide for you in your life that would convince you of his existence? (I'm curious.)

I don't know whether you need a goal. If I have one I think it may just be to live life with the most enjoyment I can get from it.

Unfortunately, although I thought you were on the right track it seems you have missed the point of my argument.

You are saying that God allows you to live a more fulfilled life.

If he is omnibenevolent then he would drop everyone on this earth ready-believing and fulfilled.

The fact that he doesn't leads me to believe that he either doesn't exist or is flawed, and the flaws were dealt with in my last post.

The paradox lies in whether or not you believe free will allows us to reach higher fulfilment than 'ready-made' belief. If it does, then again it is a flaw because it has allowed for so much human suffering and pain. Ultimately, whoever the pain is down to (free will or God) he has not stopped it and so is at fault. I do not want to believe in a God who has made the choice to let us have free will and yet left us open to such abuse. If we have to 'weigh up' the various amounts of good and bad in the world, I think bad wins every time unfortunately.

The very fact that I need convincing of his existence is, to me, evidence of either a flawed God or a non-existent God. It would be ultimately kinder for humanity to be created in a heavenly state where we were all fulfilled believers, but that is not the case.

[Colossus]

I'm fairly sure I understand the point of your argument, but my argument is not with your conclusions, but rather with your premise, i.e. that if God were omnibenevolent, he would spare us pain. I don't think this is so because I see pain as a gift. Pain is a tool by which we learn. Pain is how we survive and how we have survived for millenia. Pain and the struggle for survival are at the very foundation of what humanity has become, right? Without pain and the struggle to survive, society would not exist, nor would technology. Human existence would cease to be human existence without pain. What brings you the most joy, Guiscard? You said that you want to live life with the most enjoyment you can get out of it, so what do you get the absolute most enjoyment out of? Your posts seem to give the impression that you feel free will is a curse, and that if God really existed and loved us, there is no way he could give us free will. Based on our discussions, I can tell that you get a lot of enjoyment out of debate. Debate only happens when parties disagree. If we had no free will, it would not be possible. Without free will, human existence would not be possible. I see free will as a blessing because free will is God giving us each a role in the continuation of creation. We create everyday. What other organism that we know of can do that? None. Free will is God sharing a tiny bit of Godliness with us for the brief time that we live and breathe. Your argument that if God were truly omnibenevolent, he would give us a perfect existence is circular because God is the only perfect existence. It is not possible to have two infinite consciousnesses. For God to bless us with perfect existence would be to make us equal with him. He is the infinite, so if were to be infinite, too, then we would be one with him. Supposedly that's what heaven is, oneness with God, whatever that really means. As for me, I'm making the most I can out of the time God has given me as a separate being capable of understanding and asking questions. The pain and suffering that may come with that I accept as a necessary part that existence, and I thank him for the challenges that I face. Life would be super boring without them.

[max is gr8]

Gods is mysterious? does that mean he's meant to exist

[b.k. barunt]

Sometimes i wonder just what the hell you do (or don't) believe in - you sound like a beer commercial.

I'm wondering to whom this is directed?

Unless otherwise denoted, i am responding to the post immediately preceding mine.

[Anarchist]

That description colossus has me wondering if christians are Sadomasochists. History would support that conclusion.
I really think that suffering doesnt give our lives anymore happiness, it gives us a greater high(perhaps) but at too high a cost.

I really don't see the arguement of you were viciously raped so that while you are not being raped, you are more appreciative. Ofcourse the one who did the raping is also suffering causing him to inflict suffering on someone else. The reason so that they can better appreciate it when someone else is not forcing them to suffer? Is the goal a stoicist approach? No longer feeling at all?

Same thing with Slavery,War,Famine,Plague, their purpose is not to teach happiness, their purpose is to teach suffering. I will make the accusation that those who consider pain a blessing havent experienced it enough. When all you want to do is die, then we will sit together and count your blessings.

Religion is giving the world an excuse to why we allow so much suffering in the world by claiming its gods will for us to suffer. Personally I hope that he believes with enough pain education, that we will stop creating more pain and focus on eliminating it from our world.

What enjoyment is their in a life with no pain? I for one would be content. To pursue my hearts desire for there is nothing else to do...

Human existence would cease to be human existence without pain.

Your right it would cease to be human and become a spiritual one, This is what every religion teaches us to do.

[Colossus]

Anarchist, I don't subscribe to the teaching that bad things happen to people to teach them lessons. That's not my point AT ALL. Not remotely. I was not saying that each painful experience is itself a blessing, but rather the ability to feel pain is a part of the human experience, a part of life, and life is a blessing. I was speaking about pain specifically because it was raised as one of the things that God should protect us from. You are twisting my words to serve your personal agenda. Rape is of course a terrible thing, exacted by one human with free will by subverting the free will of another. Violation of the free will of others or he rights of others is in no way something I will defend in the least ever.

[luns101]

So how is the 'god works in mysterious ways' response to questions about why he didn't intervene when millions of natives were dying of smallpox, or when his chosen people were being slaughtered in gas chambers, at all acceptable?

Any human with the power to stop those things- especially a loving, compassionate human - would undoubtedly have done so. So why does a being with sympathetic emotions to ours get let off by being mysterious? Surely he is in fact arbitrary, twisted, mean or - and here is occam's razor working, i think - non-existent?

You won't like my answer (and I can't speak for other Christians), but my real answer is...."I don't know". If I did, then I would be making myself out to be all-knowing.

It does seem that God intervenes more in the lives of people who seek Him than those who discount Him, which makes sense IMO. If you want God in your life then He gets involved. If you have no wish to have Him be a part of your life, then He will not interfere.

For example, why didn't God intervene and stop this tragedy?:



God also allows people to get married and thus be exposed to "in-laws"...and I have no answer for that either.

[5th SS Pz. Jat]

Truly devote christians would kill people who commit adultery. Truly devote christians would kill their childeren if their children talked back to them. You can't take some parts of the Bible literally and other parts of the Bible metaphorically. You either see it as all metaphorical or all literal. You can't pick and choose. This is my take.

[luns101]

Truly devote christians would kill people who commit adultery. Truly devote christians would kill their childeren if their children talked back to them. You can't take some parts of the Bible literally and other parts of the Bible metaphorically. You either see it as all metaphorical or all literal. You can't pick and choose. This is my take.

Guess I'm not really devout. I'm sure all the adulterers and disrespectful kids out there can breathe a sigh of relief.

[Anarchist]

Anarchist, I don't subscribe to the teaching that bad things happen to people to teach them lessons. That's not my point AT ALL. Not remotely. I was not saying that each painful experience is itself a blessing, but rather the ability to feel pain is a part of the human experience, a part of life, and life is a blessing. I was speaking about pain specifically because it was raised as one of the things that God should protect us from. You are twisting my words to serve your personal agenda. Rape is of course a terrible thing, exacted by one human with free will by subverting the free will of another. Violation of the free will of others or he rights of others is in no way something I will defend in the least ever.

ofcourse I was jumping in and using extremes as my example, I in no way meant to put words in your mouth, however I dont see pain in any positive light. Pain in the medical sense is your body warning your brain of damage, in a spiritual sense it is negative energy. Either way I hope to remove it completely from my life, and would guess the world would want the same too? (apperantly not, or we wouldn't be creating so much of it)
your right it is most definately part of the human experience, however being born can easily be seen as punishment.

Whether you believe in the devil or not, your still responsible for your actions(blaming the devil for everything)

Luns, wouldnt it be wiser(considering we must all follow God according to the bible) for God to make his presence known? Like in greek mythology for example?

none of us know, thats why there are so many religions guessing.

[luns101]

Luns, wouldnt it be wiser(considering we must all follow God according to the bible) for God to make his presence known? Like in greek mythology for example?

First of all, would you please stop posting in italics for your entire posts?

We are not all required to follow God according to the Bible. We have free will to disobey it. It is true that the Bible says there will be an ultimate consequence for rejecting God - eternal separation from Him in hell. There will be the total absence of anything good there.

God did make His presence known, many times and in various ways. They are recorded in the Bible. Many people scoff at it as a reliable source for information so that is why so many people pose hypotheticals as to why God doesn't act this way or that way.

The writers of the Bible provided first-hand accounts of their interactions with God. Actual historical people are mentioned. Mythologies don't make that claim.

I really don't want to participate in another "Christians can't possibly be right" discussion. I've been involved in so many and it always boils down to the same thing...I answer questions and document my sources but the skeptics don't. I ask questions of skeptics but they won't respond OR they just gloss over them with more talking points. And finally, there are always 1 or 2 people who make accusations against us which are unfounded, with a little name-calling thrown in for good measure. I realize that the concept of an eternal judgment for committing sin is offensive to many here. In the end, it's a choice.

[Anarchist]

I was simply refering to why doesnt God visit us anymore?
You know stop in and say hello, maybe have some coffee

Greek Mythology does relate to gods and human interaction, same as the bible. Ofcourse greek mythology includes sexual relations....

Sorry for the anti-christian bias, its always there being refreshed everyday.

Im curious as to why the italics bother you? I like them.

[luns101]

I was simply refering to why doesnt God visit us anymore?
You know stop in and say hello, maybe have some coffee

Because He already did. The Holy Spirit now indwells those who accept Christ as the Messiah and Lord of their lives. It's voluntary...nobody is forced to accept it. Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, believers are enabled to show the love of Christ and preach His message to the world. They are warned that most of the world will reject that message and that they will be persecuted for proclaiming it. But they are still commanded to share it. I guess the closest thing you could compare it to is being a diplomat or representative.

Greek Mythology does relate to gods and human interaction, same as the bible. Ofcourse greek mythology includes sexual relations....

But it doesn't claim to be the divine source of revelation and truth. The Bible does. As stated earlier, it also mentions those who are actual historical figures, not just a made up representation of a god. Greek mythology doesn't predict future events and claim to do so with 100% accuracy...the Bible does make that claim.

Sorry for the anti-christian bias, its always there being refreshed everyday.

I don't mind the anti-Christian bias, as I obviously have a pro-Christian bias. What I object to is the notion that somehow to become a follower of Christ...one is somehow committing intellectual suicide. It is a faith, but a reasonable faith.

Im curious as to why the italics bother you? I like them.

Personal preference, I guess. I always thought they were to be used to highlight a particular part of a sentence that made people pay special attention to a point being made.

[b.k. barunt]

I thought that's what profanity was for.

[Jenos Ridan]

Sometimes i wonder just what the hell you do (or don't) believe in - you sound like a beer commercial.

I'm wondering to whom this is directed?

Unless otherwise denoted, i am responding to the post immediately preceding mine.

b.k. barunt, here is what I believe:

God sent his son Jesus to earth to die for me and all unsaved souls. All debt was payed. But in order to receive that blessing, one has to actually reach out and grap it. I try very hard to lead a Spirit-Filled life. I speak in tougues on occation, as does everyone at my church (Life Center Church). The days we are given are gifts, we shouldn't dare waste them in sin and unhappiness. So, I seek the Kingdom of God and wish to live a full life. Snowboarding (when the season and cash promit it), a good book (sometimes, this need not be the Bible but still), (again, when I can afford to) go see a film, etc.

What I don't believe in is:
Science; because it isn't to be 'believed'. To do so makes it a religion.
Marxism; because I just don't see how it will lead to some sort of utopia. In fact, the idea of a man-made utopia seems highly impractical. Even though I try to be a man of faith, I'm also a bit of a pragmatist.

Hope I'm clear to you.

[Anarchist]

Jenos, Could you explain to me how capitalism is supposed to save us from ourselves?

If its not supposed to, shouldnt we try for our childrens sake to make the world a better place?

I dont believe in Science either, its why we have preservatives that wont allow me to rot like im supposed to.

[Jenos Ridan]

Jenos, Could you explain to me how capitalism is supposed to save us from ourselves?

If its not supposed to, shouldnt we try for our childrens sake to make the world a better place?

I dont believe in Science either, its why we have preservatives that wont allow me to rot like im supposed to.

Easy, it allows for greater individual freedom. Otherwise, you'd have to submit to the collective. Congrats, mr. Borg Drone .

Ideally, in capitalism, the unemployment rate is so low that the only people without jobs are those who, for some inane reason, don't want one.

Well, I'd rather be cremated, but to each his/her own I guess.

[Neutrino]

Jenos, Could you explain to me how capitalism is supposed to save us from ourselves?

If its not supposed to, shouldnt we try for our childrens sake to make the world a better place?

I dont believe in Science either, its why we have preservatives that wont allow me to rot like im supposed to.

Easy, it allows for greater individual freedom. Otherwise, you'd have to submit to the collective. Congrats, mr. Borg Drone .

Ideally, in capitalism, the unemployment rate is so low that the only people without jobs are those who, for some inane reason, don't want one.

Well, I'd rather be cremated, but to each his/her own I guess.

Individual freedom for those at the top, what is basically slavery for those at the bottom...

Just a point I never thought got through in the Marxist thread:

There is not possible way, whatsoever, for humanity to feed itself if the entire world became capitalist. A huge percentage (I cant find the actual figures; Google isnt co-operating) of the total resources of the world are heading straight for America. 30% (very vague estimation) of the worlds resources go to 300 Million people, and 70% is left for the remaining 6.2 Bill.

That is not sustainable.

Were running the planet dry just to cater for 300 Mill people in luxury. What do you think would happen if we went to 6.5 Billion people?

[Jenos Ridan]

Jenos, Could you explain to me how capitalism is supposed to save us from ourselves?

If its not supposed to, shouldnt we try for our childrens sake to make the world a better place?

I dont believe in Science either, its why we have preservatives that wont allow me to rot like im supposed to.

Easy, it allows for greater individual freedom. Otherwise, you'd have to submit to the collective. Congrats, mr. Borg Drone .

Ideally, in capitalism, the unemployment rate is so low that the only people without jobs are those who, for some inane reason, don't want one.

Well, I'd rather be cremated, but to each his/her own I guess.

Individual freedom for those at the top, what is basically slavery for those at the bottom...

Well, concidering that, at the moment, I'm technically at the bottom and yet I don't feel compelled to murder my boss, I hardly feel 'enslaved'. Restricted by minimal funds, yes. By working nights instead of days, again yes. But I am free to do with what I earn whatever I darn well please.

[Neutrino]

Jenos, Could you explain to me how capitalism is supposed to save us from ourselves?

If its not supposed to, shouldnt we try for our childrens sake to make the world a better place?

I dont believe in Science either, its why we have preservatives that wont allow me to rot like im supposed to.

Easy, it allows for greater individual freedom. Otherwise, you'd have to submit to the collective. Congrats, mr. Borg Drone .

Ideally, in capitalism, the unemployment rate is so low that the only people without jobs are those who, for some inane reason, don't want one.

Well, I'd rather be cremated, but to each his/her own I guess.

Individual freedom for those at the top, what is basically slavery for those at the bottom...

Well, concidering that, at the moment, I'm technically at the bottom and yet I don't feel compelled to murder my boss, I hardly feel 'enslaved'. Restricted by minimal funds, yes. By working nights instead of days, again yes. But I am free to do with what I earn whatever I darn well please.

I was speaking of America at the top and all of those nations whos primary purpose seems to be to allow America to live in luxury at the bottom...

[heavycola]

Jenos, Could you explain to me how capitalism is supposed to save us from ourselves?

If its not supposed to, shouldnt we try for our childrens sake to make the world a better place?

I dont believe in Science either, its why we have preservatives that wont allow me to rot like im supposed to.

Easy, it allows for greater individual freedom. Otherwise, you'd have to submit to the collective. Congrats, mr. Borg Drone .

Ideally, in capitalism, the unemployment rate is so low that the only people without jobs are those who, for some inane reason, don't want one.

Well, I'd rather be cremated, but to each his/her own I guess.

Individual freedom for those at the top, what is basically slavery for those at the bottom...

Well, concidering that, at the moment, I'm technically at the bottom and yet I don't feel compelled to murder my boss, I hardly feel 'enslaved'. Restricted by minimal funds, yes. By working nights instead of days, again yes. But I am free to do with what I earn whatever I darn well please.

I was speaking of America at the top and all of those nations whos primary purpose seems to be to allow America to live in luxury at the bottom...

Uh huh, 5% of the world's population using 25% of its resources. Must be a lot of people missing out.

[Anarchist]

Yes actually there is; Africa,South America,Central America,Eastern Europe,Russia,All of Asia except Japan Vs.
Western Europe,America,Canada,Oceana.

For living in America, I still dont see why we need to waste 500 billion dollars invading another country. I dont understand why we need million dollar jewelry either....

A population empowered to make decisions about the distribution of wealth would also no doubt prioritize free public education. This would free up the thousands (if not millions) of brilliant young minds currently flipping burgers or piecing together Nike shoes, to focus instead on finding a cure for HIV and other diseases. In many parts of the world, including sub-Saharan Africa, universal education would free the population for the first time from superstition and ignorance around issues of sexual health. A society not stifled by the profit motive, but driven by real human need and aspiration would certainly prioritize these things.

Most crucially, and completely impossible under capitalism, a real end to AIDS requires that there be no humans who are so impoverished, neglected and unsatisfied that they will inject poison into their veins using dirty needles, just to gain momentary respite from their hellish existence. It requires that no woman be in a position where her only hope of survival or making a decent living is by selling her body through prostitution. These dark realities of capitalist society have no place in a socialist society, where each gives according to his ability to each according to his need.

This socialist society that we speak of is not some impossible imaginary world. It is a world freed from the inequality and inefficiency of the profit motive. It is a world where supply meets REAL human demand. It is a world in which things are prioritized because they will improve life for ordinary people, making way for the real innovation and advancement that is only possible when all people are empowered to participate in decision-making. And it is a simple matter of taking back the means of production - the huge banks and corporations which daily reap the benefits of our labour.

[Stopper]

Just to pick up on this:

Ideally, in capitalism, the unemployment rate is so low that the only people without jobs are those who, for some inane reason, don't want one.

As far as I know, I don't think you'd get that from any current theory of capitalist economics. If there are no unemployed willing-to-work people then the labour market will be too tight, causing high wage demands.

So, to keep the economy manageable, you need quite a high number of unemployed (and at the same time willing-to-work) people at any given moment.

So, unfortunately, you can't simply write off unemployed people in that fashion. Unemployment isn't a result of people who don't want to work and it isn't simply because "capitalism isn't perfect". It's a built-in feature of the system.

[Bertros Bertros]

I try very hard to lead a Spirit-Filled life. I speak in tougues on occation, as does everyone at my church (Life Center Church). The days we are given are gifts, we shouldn't dare waste them in sin and unhappiness.

This absolutely fascinates me! The whole concept of the nine manifestations of the holy spirit just bewilders me in the extreme. I discussed this a little with Mr Nate on these forums several months ago in the "Philosohpy Final" thread and he felt much the same way that I do about so I didn't really gain any understanding for it.

I'll be blunt but don't intend through this to cause any offence. I think that speaking in tongues and similar manifestations are all done by people making it up. I used to go to a fairly evangelical church for the UK where that was a lot of singing and dancing and a fair bit of shaking and healing through the power of God and tried with all my heart at that time to allow God to work his power through me too, but I never felt a thing. At first I felt the problem was with me and was quite unhappy about it for a time and then eventually I had the realisation that it was all make believe. So ultimately it was these supposed manifestations whihc turned me from a believer.

I wrote quite a bit more about this here - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... ht=#194328

So my question Jenos, is can you explain to me whats going on with all this as you are the first person I have had contact with as an adult who practices this sort of worship and I remain absolutely baffled by it. Can you honestly say in your hearts of hearts that it is God is speaking through you, or is it just a bit of made up fun and I totally miss the point?

[b.k. barunt]

Bertros, your reaction to the gifts - i.e. "since i can't apprehend it, it must be make believe" - seems a bit egocentric, and not really logical. Very subjective reasoning there. I have never been able to reach A level in chess. Shall i then assume that players who have must be cheating?