The Polymorphic Death of Team Games

[Mr Changsha]

I will respond to some of the lengthier posts in detail later, but I would just like to make a couple of points independent of what has been said up to now and having considered the issue further these last couple of days.

First of all, I wonder if we can agree that polymorphic games are going to enter the cup and league competitions, probably taking up 25% of the games. I would also suggest that individual clan wars will begin to fight polymorphically within the next month or two. Those that have suggested that even the introduction of polymorphic games into clan competitions would impel them to leave their clan are, in my humble view, being rather unrealistic. Polymorphic games obviously have strategic validity, people are going to want to play them and the strongest players in particular are going to want to compete in this way.

Do I want to see team games ruined by polymorphia? Absolutely not, but do I see polymorphic games being considered a higher level of competition (in which the very best players in clans fight it out) than team games? Well yes I do - no doubt controversially - and I think we all need to face up to the fact that team games will not be considered the highest form of the game we play in the future as they obviously are now. This would indeed be a major shift in CC and I think it is going to happen.

The point of this thread has been to try and avoid, as I put it earlier, an 'enormous smash-up' in the clan world. We can already see here that some of us are in favour of clans playing polymorphic games and other are not. We will see the same division within all the clans and I think those that are reponsible for their clans, and those that are to an extent responsible for all the clans, need to consider carefully how polymorphic games are introduced into clan wars. It seems to me to be dangerous to have effectively two competing forms of the game operating within one, shall we call it, sport. One of them is a team game, the other a single player game. One only has to look at a sport like cricket where different forms of the game have negatively affected others (i.e one day cricket harming test cricket) to see that we must be very careful about how, and to what extent, polymorphic games are introduced into clan competition.

No need to quote all of your post, but to get into before your replies to previous posts -

I've no idea how other clans work, never been in one and unlikely ever to be, FISO is probably unique in the clan world due to us arriving en masse and for the most part sticking together.

I can only presume that many other clans operate in the way that you describe, having team leaders that on any given map/ settings may or may not take others opinions on board before "giving orders". Whilst we may well have players that do understand some maps significantly better than others, generally we have learnt maps and strategy together, for most of the maps we play there is no clear leader. For say, a quad team on map X that you would lead, if it's a regular map that we play, then all 4 will have a similar approach, discussion (and very occasionally a short argument) takes place when the team members consider it necessary, but for the most part they'll just get on with the game.

Now take that to a polymorphic, you're the obvious candidate to play an x4 on that map for your clan, we don't have that, any 1 of our 4 (or possibly more in the clan) could well be sufficiently competent to give you a run for your money. You yourself play a fairly narrow range of maps, whether you do or not I understand that some clans have players that will not play outside of their comfort zones, your/their choice of course, but as a clan leader I consider it a strength that no-one in our clan has ever refused an invite regardless of their dislike of any given map, they'll simply do their best and on occasions it has resulted in someone that previously disliking a map has changed their view to wanting it as a home map, although most of the time it just results in another loss and ranking points lost

Now thinking about including polymorphic in wars or having a complete war with the setting, for some clans 5-10 games with a handful of players involved is clear, but there also has to be others like us that have 10 or more players that would quite happily take on 5 or more different maps each with a very good number of them wanting to play the same maps.

Even though I've put out a challenge for a polymorphic war, the more I think about it the bigger a logistical nightmare it's likely to be and won't be upset if no-one decides to take me up on it, not in the near future anyway. To give everyone that would like to play a decent shot at home maps, say 15 players with 3 home maps each that would mean a minimum of a 90 game war.

Also very clear to me already is that x4 games have the potential to take a very long time to resolve, 2 players facing each other that both only log in once a day and don't cross each other online means that each round takes 8 days, even with a 30 round limit that's the best part of 8 months! That's going to hold any war up considerably! And yes, it's also possible for two players sat online to play a game to conclusion within a few hours RT.

The 1v1 clan tourney is nice and quick, a poly tourney could last several years!

Generally, I feel that clans having specialist players leading others is the better way to ensure good results. I have nothing at all against how your clan goes about things (fair play to you), though I might gently suggest that your clan's overall win rate (39.6%) would indicate you do need to think about how to better organise the structure of your teams.

So clan's with higher win rates are very likely indeed to have players like me leading teams. And in this thread I am suggesting that such players are very likely to want to play polymorphic games in clan wars. Currently, I think accepting that fact but limiting polymorphic games to 25% of league and cup wars would be the sensible way of going about it.

[JBlombier]

Mr Changsha, why are you so sure that poly games will be included in clanwars? Polymorphic games are very simple. It's 1v1, but with more strategy. We have 1v1 clanwars, so in that region of wars there will surely be a polymorphic clanwar. I just don't believe that there will be a 'normal' clanwar having polymorphic in it, because it simply doesn't belong there. I even think we all agree on this and if we would make a topic about this in CD & Friends (and maybe there is, otherwise is should start now), the clan world would agree that polymorphic games are brilliant for 1v1 clanwars, but not for regular wars. The reason is also obvious. We are clans, so we need to show our cooperation, so we will play team games. If we want to show off our individual skills, we can do it outside of our clans. You know, to feel better about ourselves and to gain some rank.

I'm saying one obvious thing after another here. And I'm sure that if my post would be some kind of poll, that 95% of the clan world would agree with me. Mr C, you're making this bigger than it will ever get. I can almost assure you that, eventhough you've made some excellent points. Perhaps you're a bit too negative about the spirit of CC we've got going on here.

We want to play with our friends, even if they're just digital beings we'll never meet. Playing only polymorphic games is the beginning of a very lonely CC-experience that I wouldn't wish for anyone. This site has a lot more fun to offer and one of the most important ways to achieve that fun is by playing team games. I'm almost sure you will agree with me about that, Mr Changsha.

- Joeri

[Crazyirishman]

Two players good. One player bad.

I'm sure you have an opinion backing up that statement. Please place your opinion.

I do believe that may be a reference to Animal Farm Mr Blombier.

[Mr Changsha]

The games in which you have complete control anyway, will be better played with poly,
in games in which cooperation is needed you will play team.

This can be easily introduced in CWs by limiting player to possible % of slots per war.

I think the certainty that team games need cooperation is actually quite an interesting idea. Obviously it seems to make complete sense that team games need teams (and surely only a complete buffoon would argue against it), but anyone who has led games in the dictatorial style would know that, to a great extent, that one's team is only playing out their orders to the best of their ability.

Now anyone who has read my 'The Dictator' thread would be aware of my keen interest in the subject of how teams are organised and the varying ways they can be. Different models require varying levels of input from the team. However, if one follows the pure dictatorial model - as I do - then they would immediately see that polymorphic games are going to be extremely attractive and they will want them in clan wars. The most confident of CC dictators will no doubt secretly believe (and I don't expect them to post here) that they don't really need their teams all that much and what they might lose in other input they will gain in tactical efficiency.

Look at it this way: Two strategists face off in Conquer Club. In one set of games they play quads. Now in this game the quality of their organisational skills is almost as important as their strategic ability. They then go at it playing polymorphic quads. In this scenario the game is purely about their strategic ability...their organisational capacity is quite irrelevent.

We have to consider here the extent that CC's arguably strongest players care about pure strategic competition compared to a test of their organisational abilities. If I am right, such players will be leaning towards (for I doubt anyone has really made their mind up yet) playing polymorphic games and if they do, then they will want polymorphic games included im the clan cup and league.

[Mr Changsha]

Mr. Changsa, concerning your team leader in clan world, I am quite surprised of what you say.
I am a team leader for some maps in my clan. But this is mainly conquest maps where the strategy for team game is relatively simple and one can decide everything alone.
Concerning normal map, even if I am team leader, I always discuss most of the moves with my teammates. Especially for the first 5-10 rounds everyone has to have a look to a map and everyone discuss it. That's, I think, how you can becomes good at quad/triples games especially. Because everyone comes, and think of what is the better strategy. And there is sometimes obvious choice, but often there is also many possible options, all are good, some may be better, and to see all and plan everything, being 4 people discussing rather than one deciding really help.
Even if at the end, we decide to do what I propose at the beginning, the discussion allowed us to plan moves for the next rounds and may also help us to change or adapt our plans faster according to opponents team moves.
Plus, I also like to play team games with my clanmate because this is more fun. Reading all their comments, jokes, curses, and whatever they put in game chat is why I like team games. Strategy is one thing that make me like team games, but interaction with my teammates is definitely what make me love team games.
For those reasons I'll never stop playing team games.

I agree we came playing risk by playing risk in solo. But we played risk because we play with friends. Playing here single games, there is very few interation with other players. Playing team game give me those interactions. And being in a clan make me feel like playing with friends.

So, for some reasons I understand and share you point of view that team games may suffer from polymorphic.
But I dont see clans playing mainly polymorphic, and if I have my way I'll refuse to play clan wars including polymorphic because they have nothing to do with clan. Clan is a group of players playing together. If we play alone wtf are we doing in a clan.

You know, while I am capable of playing team games effectively solo, and sometimes basically do that, I am aware that my play is improved by having a strong second to bounce ideas off, which is why my teams have always involved players I know in real-life and, ideally, live close by so we can discuss moves over a coffee. It is also why my teams never include on any kind of long-term basis players from outside of my real-life.

But I am also aware of some players who really and truly play team games without much of any input from their team. They set their orders and their orders are played out...and they tend to win well. These are the players who are going to demand the inclusion of polymorphic games in clan competitions and, interestingly, if you glance at the top 50 on our scoreboard you will find many of them there.

[Shannon Apple]

However, I think you have to consider this not from the perspective of a player in a strong team, but rather consider the position of the leader of a strong team. Every good clan has them, they are the strongest players in the clan - generally - and those players will be, if they are not already doing it, trying out polymorphic trips and quads. Now I actually hope I'm wrong on this, but I strongly suspect that such players will quickly come to the conclusion that polymorphic gaming is better for them.

You know, there's a lot of strong people in my clan, and I honestly can't see them doing that. There are no weak links as such, just players like me who have joined recently with less experience, but the same abilities as the top guys. With experience on new maps, comes confidence to lead. When you play with them (the top players), you see how much they really enjoy playing as a team. Josko couldn't use his sarcastic humour on himself. (I've felt the brunt of that for misclicking. haha.) However, he does calculate things on a whole other level and he isn't infallible either. There are times being part of a team someone will say "what about this?" and no matter how good that player is, they'll be like "Ah, you're right. Good eyes." At the end of the day, no matter what people think from the outside, playing together and having fun is just as important as winning in a good clan. It's like being part of a large family. Sure, I see a few people thinking "okay, clans are not for me now." But, I see that as being few and far between. Or maybe the good player in a rank 20 clan that realises that he or she now does better on their own.

MM are a good clan from what I know, so I am actually surprised to hear you say all of that. I do know there are a few people who really hate the communicating aspect of team games and are afraid to give away their strategic moves in public team games. Those are the ones that I see going to poly more than the top players of clans.

[bigWham]

The games in which you have complete control anyway, will be better played with poly,
in games in which cooperation is needed you will play team.

This can be easily introduced in CWs by limiting player to possible % of slots per war.

I think the certainty that team games need cooperation is actually quite an interesting idea. Obviously it seems to make complete sense that team games need teams (and surely only a complete buffoon would argue against it), but anyone who has led games in the dictatorial style would know that, to a great extent, that one's team is only playing out their orders to the best of their ability.

Now anyone who has read my 'The Dictator' thread would be aware of my keen interest in the subject of how teams are organised and the varying ways they can be. Different models require varying levels of input from the team. However, if one follows the pure dictatorial model - as I do - then they would immediately see that polymorphic games are going to be extremely attractive and they will want them in clan wars. The most confident of CC dictators will no doubt secretly believe (and I don't expect them to post here) that they don't really need their teams all that much and what they might lose in other input they will gain in tactical efficiency.

Look at it this way: Two strategists face off in Conquer Club. In one set of games they play quads. Now in this game the quality of their organisational skills is almost as important as their strategic ability. They then go at it playing polymorphic quads. In this scenario the game is purely about their strategic ability...their organisational capacity is quite irrelevent.

We have to consider here the extent that CC's arguably strongest players care about pure strategic competition compared to a test of their organisational abilities. If I am right, such players will be leaning towards (for I doubt anyone has really made their mind up yet) playing polymorphic games and if they do, then they will want polymorphic games included im the clan cup and league.

A fascinating debate! Somewhat too lengthy for me to take in all the juicy details, however let me say this:

Clans are very important to CC!

That is why they have their own area of the website now, and their own link on the main banner. And I intend to continue to enhance and expand the Clan experience in general. There is more in the pipeline for Clans! Also, I can say that I was aware of the possible tension between Polymorphic and Team Play... and that is why the Clan enhancements came first.

However, I strongly believe that these things can live together in harmony, much like Speed/Casual, Sequential/Freestyle and No Spoils/Escalating. Simply put, people are wired to enjoy certain things more than others. For some, the engagement and comradery implicit in Team Games is key and will never be replaced by Polymorphic.

Finally, let me add that a fundamental challenge of operating a website like this is that everyone wants something different, and also that everyone is going to get bored with whatever they like now. So variety is a must. If you don't provide variety, people get bored and leave...

...then again, if you do provide variety, the death of the website due to excessive choice is swiftly proclaimed!

[Leehar]

Two players good. One player bad.

I'm sure you have an opinion backing up that statement. Please place your opinion.

I do believe that may be a reference to Animal Farm Mr Blombier.

one player good, 2 players better?

[Vid_FISO]

Set up for someone from Pig Renters to make a comment!

[Shannon Apple]

First of all, I wonder if we can agree that polymorphic games are going to enter the cup and league competitions, probably taking up 25% of the games. I would also suggest that individual clan wars will begin to fight polymorphically within the next month or two. Those that have suggested that even the introduction of polymorphic games into clan competitions would impel them to leave their clan are, in my humble view, being rather unrealistic. Polymorphic games obviously have strategic validity, people are going to want to play them and the strongest players in particular are going to want to compete in this way.

I just saw this post... I never read this page.

Oh God no. Sorry but I highly disagree with all of this. I am 100% in favour of polymorph replacing, or becoming part of the 1v1 war. I would gladly play in this next year, but as part of the larger team competitions, oh hell no. I can and do lead games on maps that I am familiar with, but on maps that I need to learn, I will follow. This is normal. I am not in disagreement because I am one of those people that follows all the time. 1v1 also has strategic validity, but they are not part of CC and CL because they are not clan games, neither is polymorph. You have to think about it from a realistic perspective. Polymorph wasn't created to replace clans. It was created as another option to 1v1 and I think that's AWESOME. It takes some of the luck away from 1v1 games. But clans are built on teams, and I am strongly against anything that destoys or makes the clan experience redundant. You're speaking from your own personal opinion, and while I respect that, I really don't think that it represents the opinion of all players who rather lead teams.

[Crazyirishman]

Two players good. One player bad.

I'm sure you have an opinion backing up that statement. Please place your opinion.

I do believe that may be a reference to Animal Farm Mr Blombier.

one player good, 2 players better?

[AslanTheKing]

this setting is, will be good for unexperienced players,
and the points will go up quicker, much quicker

in teamgames there are misunderstandings of the mayorplan ,
the next thing is players who miss a game, throwing the win to the opponent

this two mayor basic winning rules will be eliminated
and u cant blame your teammate anymore for the mistakes u made
i have not tried it yet, but i will soon
about the parachute thing i do have mixed feelings though

[Agent 86]

this setting is, will be good for unexperienced players

This is the quote of the week, in fact it is quite the opposite.

[Mr Changsha]

this setting is, will be good for unexperienced players

This is the quote of the week, in fact it is quite the opposite.

Well, it should help them learn to be better players...but I accept that they may well get their arses handed to them in the short-term.

[Fruitcake]

Notwithstanding anything else, this was a good business decision. Give the customer choice and you expand your target market, it isn't rocket science is it.

I'm now premium again, purely because of this facility.

[Falkomagno]

...and don't forget that fremium like us can not play polymorphic games...so although it is an interesting feature, I predict a mild influence in the site in general