BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN SHOWN IN SCHOOL

[luns101]

Fine your opinion is that homosexuality is a sin, while I don't agree with you, it is your opinion. If you are tolerant that doesn't mean that you won't tell gay people what dangers they face. Your entire argument is wrong.

Except that's not what you're doing. You're labeling those who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle based on scripture as homophobes...not very tolerant and open-minded of you.

Anyone can say they are open-minded on any subject and label those who disagree with them as closed-minded.

[jay_a2j]

i dont understand why many conservative christians hate gays?

We (Or at least I) don't hate gays. I do see the lifestyle as a sinful lifestyle and do not think it should be forced upon my children as "you have to be tolerant of this or we will label you as a homophobe". Its called morality....nothing more. Just like I would not want anyone to teach my kids that prostitution or drug addict are "acceptable lifestyles".

[Iliad]

Fine your opinion is that homosexuality is a sin, while I don't agree with you, it is your opinion. If you are tolerant that doesn't mean that you won't tell gay people what dangers they face. Your entire argument is wrong.

Except that's not what you're doing. You're labeling those who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle based on scripture as homophobes...not very tolerant and open-minded of you.

Anyone can say they are open-minded on any subject and label those who disagree with them as closed-minded.

I am not labelling them. Being homosexual isn't a sin, and that's my opinion. The movie didn't encourage homosexuality.


The teacher should not have showed that film, but no-one made the girl stay, she could've left. What probably happened is she told her parents and they realized they could sue for a lot of money.

[iAnonymous]

Richardson said his granddaughter was traumatized by the movie and had to undergo psychological treatment and counseling.

Shit, I lol'd when I read that.
Bitches are always trying to make easy money from any shit that happens. I bet that the girl went home and told their parents "Hey mommy, daddy, I just watched Brokeback Mountain", it was so awesome!!". Having no idea of what the heck the movie was about, they google'd it, read the plot and had that idea. Hah.
Funny. When I were at the end of 6th grade, in a catholic school, one of my teachers let us watch half of a movie. and we say plenty of blood, hardcore sword fights (With arms and blood flying around, too!) and explicit sex, and everyone at least liked it.

[Iliad]

I watched Gladiator in History last year and no-one minded.

[jay_a2j]

I think that you guys are making WAY too big of a deal about this. Sure, maybe the teacher wanst right to show an R-rated movie that may have some references to gay life or some other "bad thing". The US has made "gay" a term used for anybody that isnt quote normal unquote. Remeber, Brokeback mountain is a MOVIE, not only that but a FAKE movie.

As a jew, I dont like religion being TAUGHT in schools. Teachers in my school occasionally make a reference to something from the bible, big deal. As long as teachers arent teaching christianity to schools, I dont see why every one is making such a fuss. Its called freedom of religion, and if you dont want your child learning wrong values from a movie such as Brokeback Mountain, DONT LET THEM SEE IT. I think that teachers should give permission slips and if the parents dont agree with the values of a particualr movie that is being shown, the can just say, I dont want my child to see it.

I agree with this post.

[Jenos Ridan]

(Posting after the first reading induced vomiting and speechless frustation)
What can I add, what can I add? I think the teacher made a very poor decision. But then, teaching religion in public schools is equally wrong. Church and State are separate for a very good reason.

[jay_a2j]

No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools. The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk.... until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

Did I say I approved of those actions?

Am I defending those actions at any point in this thread?

Is anyone else?

As far as I can see, your argument has now resorted to childish 'but he did it as well' whining. That's very Christian of you, Jay. Double standards mean absolutely nothing here. What we are talking about is the fact that you object to a legal lifestyle being shown in schools. How would you respond if the Atheists you hate so much said 'we'll stop suing over things like prayer when the Christians stop making a fuss over homosexuality in schools'?

Face it, Jay, the immorality of homosexuality doesn't stand up as an argument for the film being banned so now you're getting childish. I thought you were more sensible than that.

Why does every single thread have to come back to 'Christian bashing' of some kind. My partner is a (non-practising) Christian and she has made the same argument as me, as has my practising Christian father, in a family discussion about this. You have an immense chip on your shoulder and it seems to be completely clouding your morality in this case. My analogy still stands - can I murder or steal because others get away with murdering or stealing?

Response to this please Jay.

No.

No.

No. (3 questions answered)

The suing thing is NOT important to me. IDC. I don't want what I believe to be an immoral movie shown to my kids! Am I out of line for thinking this??? Am I a closeminded, biblethumping homophobe? .....cause I can live with that.

[luns101]

I am not labelling them.

Sure you are...you called jay a homophobe! How can that not be labeling someone?

Being homosexual isn't a sin, and that's my opinion. The movie didn't encourage homosexuality.

Fine, you don't believe it is a sin because you don't believe the Bible is true. I do. We could go round and round on that forever. We are both firmly entrenched in our positions.

The teacher should not have showed that film,

Finally something we both agree on.

but no-one made the girl stay, she could've left.

And so when people get offended by socially sensitive issues, THEY are the ones who have the problem. Her parents pay taxes to fund public education just like everyone else. Why should she have to leave? Oh, I forgot, "what happens in Ms. Buford's class...stays in Ms. Buford's class"

What probably happened is she told her parents and they realized they could sue for a lot of money.

Funny how you are willing to assign a motive to the girl & her parents while not assigning any to the teacher.

[Iliad]

Hey I said she shouldn't showed that film. But if she was so hurt by it she could've told the teacher and the teacher could've done something. Suing for half a million dollars is not the solution and I stand by what I think happened

[Bertros Bertros]

Jay and Luns (as you seem to be the only folks who are actually outraged by the showing of this particular movie in the school) have either of you actually watched the film, or know what the story is about, other than they are gay cowboys?

As I alluded to in an earlier post it really doesn't promote homosexuality. Whilst there is imagery of men kissing and even some shadowy fumbling in a tent the rest of the film focuses on the negative impact that their feelings for each other has on their lives. Ultimately both cowboys ending up experiencing all sorts of negative emotion and bad feelinsg towards themselves as a result and the viewers see the destructive effect their relationship has on their respective heterosexual relationships too.

Now I have to admit the movie was made not to highlight the negative impact of homosexuality on an individuals life but rather to draw attention to the effect the oppression of their true feelings to conform with a generally intolerant and non-understanding society, forcing them into a lifestyle they can't truly accept as and end result the film said anything to the viewer but "hey its cool to be gay"...

You guys should be relatively happy with this movie. Its not promoting homosexuality. Sure, your kind of intolerance towards homosexuality is what is being vilified in the film so personally you can take offence that your viewpoint is being attacked, but in terms of the impact it has on a young mind you have no need to worry that anyone who watches it is going to suddenly finding homosexual feelings arising in them as a result.

Am I a closeminded, biblethumping homophobe? .....cause I can live with that.

No Jay that makes you, by your own admission, a homophobe. Lets keep your religion out of this. The tenuous biblical arguments, all of which are actively disputed by scholars in terms of the interpretation of the Jewish words used in the original texts and the various translations into the myriad versions of the bible have nothing to do with how you feel about hmosexuality. Have the balls to admit your homophobic without hiding behind your religion to provide a convenient excuse...

[Guiscard]

No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools. The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk.... until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

Did I say I approved of those actions?

Am I defending those actions at any point in this thread?

Is anyone else?

As far as I can see, your argument has now resorted to childish 'but he did it as well' whining. That's very Christian of you, Jay. Double standards mean absolutely nothing here. What we are talking about is the fact that you object to a legal lifestyle being shown in schools. How would you respond if the Atheists you hate so much said 'we'll stop suing over things like prayer when the Christians stop making a fuss over homosexuality in schools'?

Face it, Jay, the immorality of homosexuality doesn't stand up as an argument for the film being banned so now you're getting childish. I thought you were more sensible than that.

Why does every single thread have to come back to 'Christian bashing' of some kind. My partner is a (non-practising) Christian and she has made the same argument as me, as has my practising Christian father, in a family discussion about this. You have an immense chip on your shoulder and it seems to be completely clouding your morality in this case. My analogy still stands - can I murder or steal because others get away with murdering or stealing?

Response to this please Jay.

No.

No.

No. (3 questions answered)

The suing thing is NOT important to me. IDC. I don't want what I believe to be an immoral movie shown to my kids! Am I out of line for thinking this??? Am I a closeminded, biblethumping homophobe? .....cause I can live with that.

That didn't answer the majority of my post whatsoever Jay. It seems like you have no leg to stand on here. You've agreed that it should be OK to show it in a society in which homosexuality is legal as long as secular groups stop making a fuss over religious issues, but that is quite frankly childish and ridiculous.

The movie is immoral TO YOU!

BUT it is entirely legal in your country, and so in a public school there should be no problem with showing what is publicly legal, accepted by law and in no way seen as immoral by your elected representatives.

You cannot impose specifically Christian values on public life any-more than Jewish people can impose theirs or Muslims can impose theirs. What would you say if Muslim parents said they didn't want, say, successful single women shown in films at school because they didn't agree with it? How the hell do you think the homosexual people in your community would feel were they to be hold that their perfectly legal lifestyle was completely and utterly unmentionable in schools. What about homosexual teachers... should they not be allowed because you don't agree with it? It is legal to be homosexual in the US. You have no leg to stand on here. If you don't want your children taught about it (not promoted, but taught remember - you have not seen the film and it doesn't promote homosexuality whatsoever) then take them to a private church school.

[Backglass]

What can I add, what can I add? I think the teacher made a very poor decision. But then, teaching religion in public schools is equally wrong. Church and State are separate for a very good reason.

Wow! See Jenos? We agree 100% on something!

And jay...you shouldn't be so afraid of Brokeback Mountain. The movie doesn't "promote homosexuality" any more than "The Producers" did.

[jay_a2j]

That didn't answer the majority of my post whatsoever Jay. It seems like you have no leg to stand on here. You've agreed that it should be OK to show it in a society in which homosexuality is legal as long as secular groups stop making a fuss over religious issues, but that is quite frankly childish and ridiculous.

The movie is immoral TO YOU!

BUT it is entirely legal in your country, and so in a public school there should be no problem with showing what is publicly legal, accepted by law and in no way seen as immoral by your elected representatives.

You cannot impose specifically Christian values on public life any-more than Jewish people can impose theirs or Muslims can impose theirs. What would you say if Muslim parents said they didn't want, say, successful single women shown in films at school because they didn't agree with it? How the hell do you think the homosexual people in your community would feel were they to be hold that their perfectly legal lifestyle was completely and utterly unmentionable in schools. What about homosexual teachers... should they not be allowed because you don't agree with it? It is legal to be homosexual in the US. You have no leg to stand on here. If you don't want your children taught about it (not promoted, but taught remember - you have not seen the film and it doesn't promote homosexuality whatsoever) then take them to a private church school.

Who cares if its "legal"? Abortion is legal and I wouldn't want my kid sitting in class watching a movie that either glorifies, promotes or condemns (pro-life) abortion! Just because something is legal doesn't mean everyone has to bend over and take it up the wazoo! You are way too hung up on the legality of the situation as if THAT demands tolerance of it!

[Guiscard]

Who cares if its "legal"? Abortion is legal and I wouldn't want my kid sitting in class watching a movie that either glorifies, promotes or condemns (pro-life) abortion!

You haven't seen the movie, and if you had I doubt you'd have made this comment. The movie does not glorify, promote or condemn homosexuality. It DOES highlight the social pressure and persecution that homosexuals face in some sections of society, but it does not promote or glorify whatsoever. Would you not want a film educating children about what abortion is and how it is dealt with in some sections of society? I would say that I would DEFINITELY want my child to be educated in the pros and cons of abortion, and the reasons some choose and others don't choose it. That's education.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean everyone has to bend over and take it up the wazoo! You are way too hung up on the legality of the situation as if THAT demands tolerance of it!

That is perhaps your most ignorant statement yet. At any point has any homosexual said that everyone should be gay? The film CERTAINLY doesn't say everyone should, and indeed it shows how some people (such as yourself) do not agree with it. If anything, it shows your moral position pretty well in that it shows homosexuals in a society where they are not accepted morally. Where the hell did you get the idea that anyone thinks we should all be homosexual from? And yes, the legality does demand tolerance when it is shown in an appropriate way. Children should be taught about all aspects of society in school, not just those you personally agree with.

[max is gr8]

Maybe they were learning about cowboys or something and obviously didn't know about 'The Man From Snowy River'?

And only 2 casts were apparently gay, not the whole cast.

Plus US$500,00 is a lot of money. You sue that for seeing just one movie?

Hmmm what is the age requirement for an R rated movie? I'm pretty sure its not 12. I've never seen the movie myself but as I understand the plot ...it was about two gay cowboys keeping their affair a secret.

Bottom line....this shouldn't be shown in public schools any more then Girls Gone Wild.


If the public school system won't allow morality to be taught in school they had better not expect to show or teach things that can be seen as immoral.

In all fairness in england it was 12 so If it is an R in america it shouldn't be

[Balsiefen]

I believe accountants are immoral, if a school shows a film about accountency or referes to maths in any way i will sue them for every penny theyve got! I wish to protect my child from anything that shows the pro's or cons of accountancy, Just because its legal doesn't mean everyone should do maths

[Guiscard]

I believe accountants are immoral, if a school shows a film about accountency or referes to maths in any way i will sue them for every penny theyve got! I wish to protect my child from anything that shows the pro's or cons of accountancy, Just because its legal doesn't mean everyone should do maths

Exactly.

[jay_a2j]

Who cares if its "legal"? Abortion is legal and I wouldn't want my kid sitting in class watching a movie that either glorifies, promotes or condemns (pro-life) abortion!

You haven't seen the movie, and if you had I doubt you'd have made this comment. The movie does not glorify, promote or condemn homosexuality. It DOES highlight the social pressure and persecution that homosexuals face in some sections of society, but it does not promote or glorify whatsoever. Would you not want a film educating children about what abortion is and how it is dealt with in some sections of society? I would say that I would DEFINITELY want my child to be educated in the pros and cons of abortion, and the reasons some choose and others don't choose it. That's education.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean everyone has to bend over and take it up the wazoo! You are way too hung up on the legality of the situation as if THAT demands tolerance of it!

That is perhaps your most ignorant statement yet. At any point has any homosexual said that everyone should be gay? The film CERTAINLY doesn't say everyone should, and indeed it shows how some people (such as yourself) do not agree with it. If anything, it shows your moral position pretty well in that it shows homosexuals in a society where they are not accepted morally. Where the hell did you get the idea that anyone thinks we should all be homosexual from? And yes, the legality does demand tolerance when it is shown in an appropriate way. Children should be taught about all aspects of society in school, not just those you personally agree with.

Wake up! No one said that the movie is telling everyone to "be gay". This is YOU reading what you want into my posts. It IS promoting tolerance (as if it is a normal lifestyle and that there is NOTHING wrong with it). So then a child raised in the ways of God see's the movie then when told by his/her pastor that homosexuality is a sin, they will be like...."Wait, I was told that it is normal and that nothing is wrong with being homosexual." Thus sending mixed messages to the child. Legality DOES NOT demand tolerance. NO LAW is above GOD'S LAW! The problem is that you don't "get this" and that's ok. Just stop condemning those of us who do "get it".


I digress.

[Iz Man]

What can I add, what can I add? I think the teacher made a very poor decision. But then, teaching religion in public schools is equally wrong. Church and State are separate for a very good reason.

Not to change the subject, but there is no separation of Church & State.
The First Amendment calls for no State establishment of religion.

"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

The idea of separation of Church and State came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Assoc. in 1802.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

In the U.S., there is freedom to practice religion. There is nothing in the Constitution that states the government has the authority to ban religion or religious practices.

[jay_a2j]

What can I add, what can I add? I think the teacher made a very poor decision. But then, teaching religion in public schools is equally wrong. Church and State are separate for a very good reason.

Not to change the subject, but there is no separation of Church & State.
The First Amendment calls for no State establishment of religion.

"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

The idea of separation of Church and State came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Assoc. in 1802.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

In the U.S., there is freedom to practice religion. There is nothing in the Constitution that states the government has the authority to ban religion or religious practices.

Yes, this is true but convincing the masses will be difficult. Good luck.

[Guiscard]

Legality DOES NOT demand tolerance. NO LAW is above GOD'S LAW! The problem is that you don't "get this" and that's ok. Just stop condemning those of us who do "get it".

Legality DOES demand tolerance. Your government is telling you it is OK to be homosexual and that homosexuals should be treated in the same way as everyone else. You cannot overrule that in a public and secular environment. School is not church, Jay, whether you like it or not. And that isn't gonna change however zealous your Christian values are.

If God's law is more important for you then send your kids to church school, but you cannot impose specifically Christian values to that extent on a secular public school. To use the oft-quoted right wing phrase: 'if you don't like it - MOVE!'

I'm not arguing this one any more, Jay. If you are zealous and extreme enough to believe the crap you've been spouting then it isn't worth my time.

[vtmarik]

In Florida you have to get permission slips filled out by the parents to let the kids in to see any movie rated PG or higher. That way any parents can opt their kids out of class on the days its shown.

Is this teacher guilty of showing a movie without such process? Oh hell yes.
Should he have gotten permission/clearance from the faculty and parents to show the movie? Again, the answer is yes.
Is he furthering some kind of Secular-Progressive Pro-Gay agenda? No.

The story, aside from the homosexual side of things, is about wanting what you cannot have which is a long standing theme in literature.

The article only discusses the lawsuit brought by a woman who also made a complaint about literature assignments that had curse words.

Next they'll be dancing!

Sorry, but state-run schools can't pander to your faith, that's against the rules. They have to respect all faiths or none at all, and its simpler to just go against the none. They do overdo it sometimes (banning crosses when pentacles are allowed and such) but most of the time they get it right.

[jay_a2j]

If you are zealous and extreme enough to believe the crap you've been spouting then it isn't worth my time.

Likewise.

[jay_a2j]

I agree with everything you said but this...

Is he furthering some kind of Secular-Progressive Pro-Gay agenda? No.

You don't know that. I don't know that. But showing this movie in school (public) without a doubt is sending a message of tolerance and acceptance. You want to show a movie about "wanting what you can't have"? There are plenty of other movies that could do the job. (Fatal Attraction comes to mind...hehehe)