Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

[zomboli]

all I gotz to say is they believe in "GOD"? don't they... personally I don't believe in life after death or any deity for that matter, I like to believe in Evolution because thats much more fascinating then imagining some big old guy watching everything we do (not trying to be mean or anything) lots more facts to prove it anyways...

[Beastly]

The question was...

What is in the book of Mormon that is not in the Bible?

If the book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, What more did he want us to know, that the bible doesn't already contain?


What specific doctrine of Mormonism is in the Book of Mormon that isn't in the Bible?

[rallison]

Why do we use the book of Mark when we have Matthew? Why have the New Testament when we have the Old Testament? Quite simply, its another point of view. It’s from another people who wrote about Jesus Christ.

As for my question... What is your definition of Christian?

[Nephilim]

so you're not a fan of free speech?

Never said that.

if you don't want to be involved in this discussion, i suggest not clicking on the link to this thread.

Never said that either. You really like inserting words into peoples mouths huh?

every time you post here, you're contributing to a religious discussion.

No! Thats frickin' amazing.... Any other obvious facts you wish to point out?

get your head out of your ass. also, do you realize how ridiculously stupid it is to call the entirety of Christianity a cult?

OK back at ya... Do you realize how ridiculously stupid it is to live your life for, and actually WORSHIP grand stories written by an ancient people?

Yet, I am proclaimed to be the proud bearer of an Ass-hat because I don't believe in a flavor of magical, super-sky daddy....Gotcha.

and maybe four, don't get all twisted up about this; act like an adult.

Yup...even with those who don't believe. You might try "practicing what you preach" there churchy-boy.

backglass, i think i recall that you are somewhat respected by the more intelligent posters on CC forums. i gotta tell ya, from this discussion, i don't understand why. you said, "all religious discussions should be held in private." thus, you are advocating limits on free speech. whenever you contribute to this thread, you are contradicting your stated opinion on religious discussions by speaking in public on the subject. this is quite clear, and it is equally clear that you are either daft or just being petulant.

you have no evidence that i live my life for or worship anything. i am advocating a rational discussion. you made irrational comments, so i called you on them. as noted above, you either fail to recognize your own irrationality or you are simply being a punk. either way, i got no use talking to you anymore.

[jay_a2j]

(i.e., jay's insistence on the "born-again" thing; not everyone considers this as THE defining mark of Christianity).

JOHN 3 1-5


1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."



Don't take my word for it...take His!

[Nephilim]

uot;]
Personally, I think that a Christian is someone who believes in Christ, knows that He died for our sins and that there is no way we could be saved without him. A Christian is someone who tries to follow His teachings.

That’s what Christianity is to me. What is it to everyone else?

i've tried to make this point, perhaps not directly enough: a big part of the problem here is that some folks (jay, jenos, and beastly to a lesser extent) are trying to define Christianity in a narrow sense. conversely, as optimus has noted, plenty of non-LDS folks are trying to define LDS faith and doctrine arbitrarily, and not listening to the actual claims of actual LDS people.

it doesn't matter what you believe. if you want to talk about differences between the LDS church and Christianity, you need to do a few things first. one, know something about LDS teachings. optimus gave us something on that. two, know something about Christianity (this was the1exile's problem). three, remember that your branch of Christianity is not the end-all and be-all of the faith, and that there are much broader considerations than your own pet beliefs (i.e., jay's insistence on the "born-again" thing; not everyone considers this as THE defining mark of Christianity). and maybe four, don't get all twisted up about this; act like an adult.

so, back to the suggestion i've made before: one classic expression of what it means to be Christian is the Apostle's Creed. another is the Nicean Creed. would anyone like to compare one or both of these to what we know about LDS doctrine, and possible in light of optimus's post about it?

the problem i'm seeing here is a lot of reductionism. some folks trying to reduce LDS to some stereotype, then compare it to their reduced/biased version of Xty or some narrow part of it. alternately, some are taking a few phrases from mormon lit or joseph smith sermons and blowing them up huge, and trying to make a few lifted quotes into the basis for a final judgment. if we want to talk big picture, we have to know a lot of details, and have some guidelines for what the big picture actually is. probably too much to expect from a CC forum.

Did you want the Whole Sermon? Sorry if you didn't like the way I exposed a "Christian" who claims to have done more than Christ himself.

beastly, you don't have to get all upset. there are just a lot of problems with the points you have been making:

1) so joe smith started a church. so did luther, calvin, and lots more. if luther, calvin, etc. made some statement you considered negative, i doubt you would be so quick to dismiss the entire religious tradition that sprung from their thoughts. all i'm saying: it's not exactly solid logic to life one statement from a joseph smith sermon and claim that it discredits the entire religion. you are reducing the LDS faith to a few sentences. we have to have more discussion than that.

2) This statement of yours indicates one of the problems:

You don't understand how a "Christian" would find that quote from Joseph Smith as rude and arrogant. A "Christian" would never claim to have done more than Christ.

I felt this was important to show because this is another reason why Christians don't believe that LDS are Christian.

you need to understand: in these phrases you are claiming to speak for all christians. this is not a good idea. many people can make many claims, and this does not automatically invalidate their followers in the distant future. now we can discuss how the ramifications of these claims if this person is considered a prophet, but we haven't exactly done that. also, these same issues could be applied to catholic leaders and the authority invested in them. but we don't seem to place the same scrutiny on the catholic church as we do the LDS church. why?

How come you make a thread, and then try to change the whole subject of the thread when Valid points are exposed?

i don't think i have tried to change the subject, i could be wrong. i've tried to direct the conversation a little and suggest possible next moves. i must add, i have clearly stated that you made excellent points that should be rebutted. beastly, in all honesty, it seems your emotions are clouding your reading of the thread.

I have been giving you points of just why Christians don't believe MORMONS are Christian. isn't that why you made this thread?

You already know that mormons believe themselves to be Christian. Your Thread is asking why other Christians don't believe them to be such.

nope, that's not why i made the thread. look at the title; it isn't "please prove that LDS aren't Xtns." you have been giving points of why YOU and possibly some LIKE YOU don't think LDS are Xtns. you do not speak for christendom. my comments toward you have been aimed at helping you to understand that fact. i hoped this thread would open some discussion, but there are far too many folks who pretend that they have authority to end it.

The point is Just because someone claims they are Christian doesn't mean that they are.

again, read the whole thread. one aspect of the question is academic: should scholars of religion, who generally group faiths according to self-identification, label LDS as Xtns?

So I come and try to show you why, and you come off with "a lot of reductionism" and blah blah blah... Well just what do you expect? For people to say well dahhhh I don't know why they aren't Christian, they just aren't.

Sry some of us are more educated on this subject than you are and you can't handle it.

beastly, i'm not asking you to convince me of anything or to show me proof of why LDS aren't Xtns. i'm a student of religion and i'm aware of most of the main objections to LDS folks, i'm fairly sure. i'm trying to tell you: you are pretending to speak for all Xtns by ruling out LDS altogether. at the same time, you are speaking for the LDS folks by telling them what they believe, and it seems you do this so that you can set them up to take a fall. all i am trying to tell you: in a rational debate, this is both unfair and extremely presumptuous. i'm asking for equitable and reasonable discussion of the subject, but far more than anyone else here, you obviously have an axe to grind. you've gone so far as accusing the LDS contributors of cowardice when they don't promptly reply. really, you need to calm down.

[Nephilim]

(i.e., jay's insistence on the "born-again" thing; not everyone considers this as THE defining mark of Christianity).

JOHN 3 1-5


1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."



Don't take my word for it...take His!

jesus as well as many other NT writers said a whole lot of things, jay. look at my comment: not everyone considers this as THE defining point. there are lots of other things to choose from.

[Avron]

Avron 3-5
And Thouest shall keepest thine religion to thine self said Moses to the People and Thou art the 11th Commandment.

[jay_a2j]

(i.e., jay's insistence on the "born-again" thing; not everyone considers this as THE defining mark of Christianity).

JOHN 3 1-5


1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."



Don't take my word for it...take His!

jesus as well as many other NT writers said a whole lot of things, jay. look at my comment: not everyone considers this as THE defining point. there are lots of other things to choose from.

Really? Do tell.

[Beastly]

I think Nephilim had an excellent point. I said what it meant to me to be a Christian, I haven’t heard from anyone else yet. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Mainstream Christians define themselves as not just followers of Christ, but there redemption rest solely upon the death of Christ. It is a SETTLED issue.

If you have to be Married in a Temple to get to heaven, then why did Christ have to die?

A Christian believes that Christ is God in human form. That is why men killed him.

A Christian Believes in the Bible. and does not believe it has errors.

If you translate French or German into English do you get errors?


The book of Mormon is presented by the LDS church as "another testament of Jesus Christ"

Where do I find your concept of eternal marriage in the Book of Mormon?

[Nephilim]

I think Nephilim had an excellent point. I said what it meant to me to be a Christian, I haven’t heard from anyone else yet. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Mainstream Christians define themselves as not just followers of Christ, but there redemption rest solely upon the death of Christ. It is a SETTLED issue.

If you have to be Married in a Temple to get to heaven, then why did Christ have to die?

A Christian believes that Christ is God in human form. That is why men killed him.

A Christian Believes in the Bible. and does not believe it has errors.

If you translate French or German into English do you get errors?


The book of Mormon is presented by the LDS church as "another testament of Jesus Christ"

Where do I find your concept of eternal marriage in the Book of Mormon?

good lord, beastly, read the thread. there are tons of christians who don't believe "men killed Christ b/c he was God in human form." same goes for inerrancy. IF YOU WANT TO DEFINE LDS AGAINST CHRISTIANITY, CHECK SOMETHING BESIDES YOUR OWN NARROW THOUGHTS.

[Beastly]

oh please inform me then why he was killed?

From the bible please...

[Beastly]

1) so joe smith started a church. so did luther, calvin, and lots more. if luther, calvin, etc. made some statement you considered negative, i doubt you would be so quick to dismiss the entire religious tradition that sprung from their thoughts. all i'm saying: it's not exactly solid logic to life one statement from a joseph smith sermon and claim that it discredits the entire religion. you are reducing the LDS faith to a few sentences


.

I never saw anything from any Christian church starters boast that they have done more than Christ himself!! Nor a prophet... if you have ever seen this please enlighten me. Being a religious scholar, you would know, right?

you need to understand: in these phrases you are claiming to speak for all christians. this is not a good idea. many people can make many claims, and this does not automatically invalidate their followers in the distant future. now we can discuss how the ramifications of these claims if this person is considered a prophet, but we haven't exactly done that. also, these same issues could be applied to catholic leaders and the authority invested in them. but we don't seem to place the same scrutiny on the catholic church as we do the LDS church. why?

First off I haven't seen a "Christian" not agree with anything I have said. Secondly we aren't discussing the Catholic church. Thirdly I have the authority to speak for "Christians"

it seems your emotions are clouding your reading of the thread.

how can you see emotions over the Internet? wow, heres a emotion for you

nope, that's not why i made the thread. look at the title; it isn't "please prove that LDS aren't Xtns." you have been giving points of why YOU and possibly some LIKE YOU don't think LDS are Xtns. you do not speak for christendom.

I have put the word christian in quotes for a reason figure that one out. And I do speak for Christendom because I have the authority to do so.

i'm a student of religion, and I'm the only one.

and i'm aware of most of the main objections to LDS folks, i'm fairly sure. i'm trying to tell you: you are pretending to speak for all Xtns by ruling out LDS altogether.

I am not pretending about anything, I am speaking for Christians.

at the same time, you are speaking for the LDS folks by telling them what they believe.

So knowing what a religion believes is telling them what they believe... Where have I said anything about what they believe as incorrect?

I have given you facts. what is not fair or reasonable about that?

[Beastly]

Why do we use the book of Mark when we have Matthew? Why have the New Testament when we have the Old Testament? Quite simply, its another point of view. It’s from another people who wrote about Jesus Christ.

As for my question... What is your definition of Christian?

Rallison, I respect you answering my question? thank you. I ponder things and wonder why any body would need more than just the bible, and I appreciate your answer.

Where do I find your concept of eternal marriage in the Book of Mormon?

[jay_a2j]

For the record, I agree with everything Beastly has said. He/She has made excellent points, most of which has been ignored or brushed off by those attacking him/her.

Looks like Beastly has owned you in this thread Nephilim.

[Iliad]

To the creator of this thread you forgot the GFY option.

[Nephilim]

To the creator of this thread you forgot the GFY option.

cheers, fuckface, i'm not beholden to you or your shit clan

[Iliad]

To the creator of this thread you forgot the GFY option.

cheers, fuckface, i'm not beholden to you or your shit clan

Dude lighten up!

[Nephilim]

beastly, you do not have authority to speak for anyone but yourself, hun. the point of everything i have said to you: you're talking way to big for your britches. i don't have to prove anything to you. you are the one making all the gargantuan assertions, so the burden is on you. you're keying in on a couple of small points, and i think it is probably obvious to rational observers that you have a chip on your shoulder. this thread wasn't meant for the spread of your anger.

and jay, only fools like you would endorse beastly's irrationality. just like voting for bush....

[Nephilim]

To the creator of this thread you forgot the GFY option.

cheers, fuckface, i'm not beholden to you or your shit clan

Dude lighten up!

GFY

[Iliad]

To the creator of this thread you forgot the GFY option.

cheers, fuckface, i'm not beholden to you or your shit clan

Dude lighten up!

GFY

There you go! Don't be so gloomy it really is quite boring.

[Beastly]

beastly, you do not have authority to speak for anyone but yourself,

who told you that?

and jay, only fools like you would endorse beastly's irrationality. just like voting for bush....

cheers, fuckface, i'm not beholden to you or your shit clan

whats that you were saying about anger?

[Backglass]

you said, "all religious discussions should be held in private." thus, you are advocating limits on free speech.

Allow me to clarify...If you don't want to have your house of cards pushed over, then perhaps your "religious discussions should be held in private". Sure, personally I would rather not read such drivel, but I respect your right to believe in whatever fantasy you choose. I have no problem with people openly discussing religion here or anywhere...just dont cry when I tell you what I think of your mythology. If you don't want my (and others) input, take it private.

you have no evidence that i live my life for or worship anything.

Then what I said doesnt apply to you, and there is no rational reason for you to be so obviously offended, now is there?

as noted above, you either fail to recognize your own irrationality or you are simply being a punk.

Kettle, meet pot!

either way, i got no use talking to you anymore.

Ah yes...the "I dont like what you say, so I will just ignore you" option. Jay, Luns and a few others already beat you to that one. When they run out of biblical passages to justify their legends, they just throw in the towel. Oh what a great loss this will be to me...who will take your place to call me names?

and jay, only fools like you would endorse beastly's irrationality. just like voting for bush....

Hey! We agree on something!

[Dancing Mustard]

Oh wow Nephilim; I just want to say:

1. Iliad just wound you spectacularly
2. Backglass completely fucked you up in open debate

How does that feel?

[The1exile]

I'm afraid Neph is demonstrating his lack of knowledge spectacularly.