Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

[Backglass]

I find it oddly hilarious to watch a group of cultists and wacko's pointing fingers at another group...and proclaiming them to be cultists and wacko's.

[static_ice]

I find it oddly hilarious to watch a group of cultists and wacko's pointing fingers at another group...and proclaiming them to be cultists and wacko's.

and without much evidence...

[2dimes]

It's ok glass, your just affected by the viel.

[2dimes]

I find it oddly hilarious to watch a group of cultists and wacko's pointing fingers at another group...and proclaiming them to be cultists and wacko's.

and without much evidence...

I don't want to start a thread so I'll further ruin this one.

Are Moonies considered christians? Is the leader still active?

[static_ice]

I find it oddly hilarious to watch a group of cultists and wacko's pointing fingers at another group...and proclaiming them to be cultists and wacko's.

and without much evidence...

I don't want to start a thread so I'll further ruin this one.

Are Moonies considered christians? Is the leader still active?

I can answer one of those questions... the leader is very active and very old

we are not, obviously, the average christians you know, but we make "alliances" with a lot of normal christian churches. But as someone said before, to be christian you have to be "born again" in the words of Jesus, and we do have a "rebirth" tradition just like christians have baptism...

[fluffybunnykins]

I thought a moonie was revealing your arse in public. seems like an interesting way to come up with a name for a religion... does dropping your pants have some kind of ceremonial significance?

[static_ice]

I thought a moonie was revealing your arse in public. seems like an interesting way to come up with a name for a religion... does dropping your pants have some kind of ceremonial significance?

no we are not officially called moonies, that is actually just an offensive derogatory (sp?) term for us because our leader's last name is Moon.

[2dimes]

The wikipidea page looks fairly normal. The only negative stand out says Mr. Moon doesn't like the gay guys.

[static_ice]

The wikipidea page looks fairly normal. The only negative stand out says Mr. Moon doesn't like the gay guys.

ya, keep this to your selves but I heard he is buying wikipedia...

anyway ya we don't hate gays but we don't believe it is right just like all the christians, out there, I don't see why it is wrong for a church to disagree with gays...

[b.k. barunt]

I find it oddly hilarious to watch a group of cultists and wacko's pointing fingers at another group...and proclaiming them to be cultists and wacko's.

It's very easy (not to mention cowardly) to sit back and snipe at others' beliefs when you have none yourself to defend. Kinda like playing a game of Risk where only you can attack. I've never heard you take a stand for anything, but you seem to love attacking those that do. Go figure. At any rate, Beastly seems to have scared off Optimo, Static Ice seems to have switched from Mormons to Moonies, so what's next?

[Hitman079]

i think so. christians believe in God and Mormons do also.
although it seems ludicrous..(note that what i know about mormonism is a brief history of them in early america after the signing of the guadalupe hidalgo treaty and an explanation of their religion on South Park)

[b.k. barunt]

??

[Backglass]

It's very easy (not to mention cowardly) to sit back and snipe at others' beliefs when you have none yourself to defend.

Yup thats me the coward...the one who believes death is real and final. The cowardice exists in those who cant deal with life and must invent fables and lore in order to sleep at night.

I've never heard you take a stand for anything,

Then you need to read the forums more.

but you seem to love attacking those that do. Go figure.

I find it hilarious that one religion points fingers at another and says "CULTISTS!!!!"...don't you? Probably not, if you are the ones being pointed at.

[GrazingCattle]

I read the first page or two of this inane thread and found some statements that seemed unfounded. Namely when Jay_a2j said that Jehovah Witnesses promoted false teachings and amounted to a cult (they are actually called Jehovah's Witnesses).

I am afraid you are way off base. What teachings of theirs do you find are false?


(please enlighten me!)

[Beastly]

I don't believe that this thread was created to come and Bash on the Mormons!
They don't wish to get into any arguments about Religion.

Thats why I said they wouldn't be back.

You want them to come and debate with you... But they won't.

I have not given anything for them to answer for me, so here it is... The same questions I always try to get answered and never do!


Since the Introduction to the Book of Mormon states that it contains "the fullness of the everlasting gospel" can you give me verses that teach the doctrines of pre-earth existence, plural gods with wives, temple marriage, chance to repent after you die, temple rituals for the dead, and three levels of heaven?

I could never find any of this in the Book of Mormon.

I want to know if the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and none of that stuff is in the Bible, then where is it in The Book of Mormon. Not being able to find it raised this question with me

What specific doctrine of Mormonism is in the Book of Mormon that isn't in the Bible?

[The1exile]

I read the first page or two of this inane thread and found some statements that seemed unfounded. Namely when Jay_a2j said that Jehovah Witnesses promoted false teachings and amounted to a cult (they are actually called Jehovah's Witnesses).

I am afraid you are way off base. What teachings of theirs do you find are false?


(please enlighten me!)

I love Jehovah's witnesses. They are the foundation of comedy gold!

[GrazingCattle]

I read the first page or two of this inane thread and found some statements that seemed unfounded. Namely when Jay_a2j said that Jehovah Witnesses promoted false teachings and amounted to a cult (they are actually called Jehovah's Witnesses).

I am afraid you are way off base. What teachings of theirs do you find are false?


(please enlighten me!)

I love Jehovah's witnesses. They are the foundation of comedy gold!

lol

[GrazingCattle]

you have any good Jehovah's Witnesses jokes?!?

[Optimus Prime]

Seeing as how nobody here is interested in actually discussing something openly. I think rallison and I are done with it. I'm not going to sit around and banter back and forth when everyone just wants to dictate to me what I believe. Have fun guys and perhaps someday when everything is said and done we'll all see each other and realize who may have been right or wrong.

I'm going to go enjoy my newfound premium membership now. If anyone wants an intelligent discussion, PM me.

[Backglass]

Seeing as how nobody here is interested in actually discussing something openly. I think rallison and I are done with it. I'm not going to sit around and banter back and forth when everyone just wants to dictate to me what I believe. Have fun guys and perhaps someday when everything is said and done we'll all see each other and realize who may have been right or wrong.

I'm going to go enjoy my newfound premium membership now. If anyone wants an intelligent discussion, PM me.

I agree. All religious discussions should be private. If only more were like you and would take it private, it would be a lot nicer world to live in for the rest of us.

[Beastly]

that response is exactly what I mean...Typical Mormon response, they are taught to respond this way.

it always is the same...

when it comes right down to answer a basic question, it can't happen. Its always like that.

[rallison]

Like, perhaps these ones which we refer to in the LDS Church as our Articles of Faith. They were written down by Joseph Smith to answer what the most basic tenets of our faith are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


Mormons believe= that God the Father is an exalted man, with a body (D&C 130:22), and that men can become gods (D&C 88:107).

Prophet Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet "As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become" is backed up by many other statements from Joseph Smith.

Christians believe=God is spirit, (John 4:24) and the idea of a man becoming as God is, is considered blasphemy. Jesus himself was accused of blasphemy for claiming to be God (John 10:33); and it would have been, had he not been God. Here a distinction needs to be made between God becoming man (incarnation), which the Bible teaches; and man becoming God (exaltation), which has no biblical foundation.


This is correct, we do believe that God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and blood, but of course much better then ours are right now. This belief comes from scriptures (when Stephen was stoned, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, when Jesus was baptized God spoke from heaven, and the Spirit descended like a dove) Also, if God is spirit, and Jesus is God, how does Jesus have a body of flesh and blood, even after he was resurrected? His disciples and many others saw him eat food and touched his hands.



Mormons Jesus is "divine", but only in the sense of being an exalted man. He is not considered equal to the Father, therefore, is not to be worshiped in the same way as the Father. He was a created being, and separate from God the Father. Jesus is the "spirit brother" of Lucifer and, ultimately, all humans; his uniqueness was based on the fact that he was conceived physically by God the Father. Jesus Christ was conceived as the result of a physical union of God the Father and Mary.
References:
JS History 1:17

orthodox Christians Jesus is called the Son of God, and is portrayed as being one with God (John 10:30), being God (John 1:1-3), and even the Old Testament prophesies point to a "Son" that will be called "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). He is to be worshiped as God (e.g. Luke 24:52) See also Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3. Jesus was begotten Not Made, and was of Virgin Birth. The Bible teaches that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and that Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.

how Mormons believe=The "Trinity" is the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, but are separate entities, though one in purpose. The Son is not eternal, but is a created being (that is, there was a time he did not exist in his current form, and therefore a time when the Father was not the Father.)

how Christians believe=The doctrine of the Trinity is, to put it simply, the synthesis of the Bible's declaration that there is one God; and that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God.

References:
Matthew 3:16
Matthew 28:18-19
Luke 1:35
John 20:21-22


Correct, we believe them to be distinct beings, while being one in purpose. Like a team. I’ll point to the above examples of Stephens stoning and Jesus’ baptism



Mormonism has historically taught in a plurality of gods, presumably of other worlds, albeit that we are to worship only the god of this world. (This teaching has been significantly de-emphasized, at least in any public arena, in modern Mormonism.)

The Bible makes it extremely clear that God alone is God, and there is no other.
Mark 12:29
Isaiah 44:6


We are children of God. What does a child of anything grow up to be?

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

Mormons believe=Mormonism teaches that Adam's sin opened the way for God's ultimate "plan of salvation" (exaltation), and that only through that plan can men be exalted (become gods). (See 2 Nephi 2:22 and following.) Mormonism further teaches that were it not for the fall, there would be no procreation (Moses 5:11).

Christians believe=The Bible teaches that Adam's sin introduced sin to all mankind; while it necessitated God's plan of salvation (redemption through Jesus Christ), it did not "open the way" to godhood. There is nothing to indicate that procreation was only possible because of the fall.

Mormons believe=humans are incarnated "spirit children" of God the Father, as is Jesus and Lucifer, and that we existed in Heaven prior to our birth on earth. (D&C 93:23 & 29)

Christians believe=The Bible speaks of pre-knowledge, but there is nothing to suggest existence prior to conception (e.g., Jeremiah 1:5).


“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee”. How does that not suggest existence prior to conception? If we didn’t exist beforehand, were did we come from?



Mormonism teaches that there are three levels of Heaven; the Celestial (which itself has three degrees, see D&C 131), Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is reserved for faithful Mormons (and the highest degree for those married in the temple). The terrestrial is reserved for those who were decent people who rejected the Mormon gospel, and the telestial for those who are wicked. (See D&C 88:21-24)

Heaven is the dwelling place of God, and the destination of those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ.


This is also taught in the bible, (1 Cor 15:40-42) he talks about the 3 degrees. In 2 Cor 12:2 he talks about a man caught up to the third heaven



3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Mormons believe=Salvation in Mormonism has a dual meaning; one is universal salvation, which is what the sacrifice of Jesus brought all people, good and evil alike, and refers only to resurrection from the dead.

The other salvation is essentially referring to exaltation, which is dependent upon one's worthiness and obedience on Earth.
Mormonism teaches that worthy men can become gods (and women goddesses), equal to God. Less worthy individuals are then assigned to varying degrees of heaven, with the worst of the bunch in eternal "outer darkness


Christians believe=Salvation is the free gift of Jesus Christ to all who believe in him; it is salvation from hell, and salvation to eternal life with God.
The Bible teaches that the eternal destiny of mankind is one of two things--eternal life with God for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ; those are made immortal and perfected (but not gods); and eternal separation from God (hell) for those who do not.


God established his church, and also established ordinances. We need to obey those ordinances. Baptism, gift of the holy ghost, etc.



4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mormons believe=The "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" are distinct terms in Mormonism. The "Holy Ghost" is the third personage of the godhead, while the "Holy Spirit" represents the presence of God but not a distinct personage.

References:
Jacob 6:8
D&C 121:26
D&C 130:22

Christians believe=Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are one and the same ("Holy Ghost" most commonly used in the King James version, "Holy Spirit" in more contemporary translations); The Holy Spirit is an entity, not merely a representational term, and yet is equated with God (for example, Acts 5:3-4 uses the Holy Spirit and God interchangeably.) The Holy Spirit is eternal (Hebrews 9:14) and one who teaches (John 14:26).

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Mormons believe= that the Bible has been corrupted, and that vital portions have been lost, deleted, or distorted, and that the LDS scriptures are a restoration of what was lost in the Bible. In Mormonism, the Gospel is referred to as the "restored" gospel, God's "plan of salvation" which involves pre-existing spirit children to be born of earthly parents, pass through life on earth, and be given the opportunity to, via their earthly worthiness, eventually reach exaltation (godhood).

Christians believe=Orthodox Christianity rests upon the authority of the Bible alone as the Word of God. In Christianity, the gospel is the redemption of fallen humanity by the sacrifice and free gift of Jesus Christ, through faith in Him alone, which saves from eternal separation from God (hell) and grants eternal life (being with God forever).


We believe that the bible is correct, so far as it is translated correctly. Yes things have changed with the many many different translations, but the bible is correct, we believe it and use it daily.





9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Mormons believe =The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church currently in existence on the earth. It is the restoration of what had been lost in the first decades of the church.

Christians believe=The "true church" is invisible, and is comprised of all people who have placed their faith in the true Jesus Christ, and is not bound by any denomination or tradition. The denial of an apostate church is based on Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not overcome it" (Matthew 16:18



Like I said before, we believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the church established by God on the earth. It has all the authority, ordinances, callings etc. of the same church which Jesus Christ organized here on the earth. Just as people needed to be members of the church when Jesus was on the earth, they do now.

We do NOT believe that other churches are “wrong” or “evil”. All churches are good. They help people become better, which is a good thing.





12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I hope this shows the difference in what the Mormons believe and what the Orthodox Christians believe,even tho the Mormons think it is the same, it really isn't.

Actually we don’t believe that we are the same as other churches. If we were the same, we’d be the same church.

I guess where we should have started out is defining what Christianity really is. If it means being the same as all other churches, then of course we are not, because we are different. Maybe we should figure out the definition of Christianity, then go from there.

Personally, I think that a Christian is someone who believes in Christ, knows that He died for our sins and that there is no way we could be saved without him. A Christian is someone who tries to follow His teachings.

That’s what Christianity is to me. What is it to everyone else?

[edit]I edited this so my answers were in green.. it was confusing the way i first posted it, I should have thought it out better [/edit]

[rallison]

Secondly, I don't understand the "No sin is greater than another" line. That is not quite true, certain sins carry a heavier weight, but getting to a certain level of heaven has to do with how many sins you commit and whether or not you repent of them, not which ones they were.

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
man does not has the ability to stop sinning if he simply chooses to.

Unlike crime, which involves the breaking of human law, sin is a condition of the heart or an expression of that condition where we are estranged from God and fail to trust in God.
Sin expresses itself in particular acts.

man is hopelessly enslaved by his sins (apart from God’s intervention) and his good works are “dead” or worthless in meriting God’s favor (Ephesians 2:1-2; Matthew 15:18-19; Romans 7:23; Hebrews 6:1; 9:14).

This is why many don't consider LDS members to be "Christian".

Religious syncretism is simply not compatible with true Christianity. In fact, any modification to Biblical law and principle for the sake of a better religion is heresy (Revelation 22:18-19).

Ok, i understand and agree that we are all sinners, and that we cannot change that alone. But what does this have to do with all sins being equal? Do you really think that killing someone and stealing a cookie amounts to the same thing?

[rallison]

Allow me to further clarify here, just in case jenos thinks i'm on his "side" too. I lay no claims to following Jesus, and from jenos' behavior, i don't know why he does. The Mormons haven't done a very good job of defending their faith here, but they have refrained from returning insults that jenos and exile (and myself) have given them. No jenos, just because some of us are against Mormonism, that does not make us on your "side". I won't drag the name of Jesus through the mud by claiming to follow him if my life does not reflect His teachings - maybe you should do the same (James 3:17).

I'm glad someone noticed. In all honesty, it is getting pretty tiring to be called a lier, coward and cheat because I dont post for a day. I'm busy, I have a life. I wont post every 15 minutes on something, especially when the same question has been asked 3 times(beastly's "be married in a mormon temple or go to hell") I'll post at least once a day, more if I can.

I'm sure that i'll be called a lier, coward and cheat for "running away" while i "decide what lies i'm going to tell". I have a life, if you want to hate me for that go ahead.

[b.k. barunt]

Sounds like a bit of exagerration there rallis - when i made that comment about insults, i didn't know you were going to turn yourself into a martyr. I do not (nor did i) call you a coward, but you guys haven't done much of a job defending your faith. If you have a problem with discussing things openly (and this is especially for Optimus), and you don't like to argue, why did you start? Seems kind of hypocritical - like backglass with his sanctimonious "religion should only be discussed in private", while you see him and his opinions on any and every religious thread.