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Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

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Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians?

 
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Postby Anarchist on Sat May 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Optimus Prime wrote: 10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.



a bit off subject, but where does it come from that Jesus will return to America?(all christians seem to believe that) I dont. Also does it specify that it will be North America?
Reason I ask is looking at civilisations migration throughtout history South America is the last continent not to be a pinnacle of society. I would put my money on South america.

Jenos, In every religious discussion you've been a christian advocate. Sorry I assumed you were christian with your judgemental attitude and your bullheaded arguements.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Sat May 12, 2007 3:00 pm

Anarchist wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote: 10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.



a bit off subject, but where does it come from that Jesus will return to America?(all christians seem to believe that) I dont. Also does it specify that it will be North America?
Reason I ask is looking at civilisations migration throughtout history South America is the last continent not to be a pinnacle of society. I would put my money on South america. I've never heard of Jesus "returning to America.

Jenos, In every religious discussion you've been a christian advocate. Sorry I assumed you were christian with your judgemental attitude and your bullheaded arguements.
I've never heard of Jesus "returning to America". Sounds like something the religious right would come up with. Actually, the scriptures say that when He returns, "every eye will see him", so figure it out from there. If i was Jesus, i'd come to America first just to slap the shit out of all the self righteous assholes on the religious right, but fortunately for them i'm not God.
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Postby Anarchist on Sat May 12, 2007 3:15 pm

Well said Barunt!

Id just want to add that all religions have contradictions, the fact that 2 mormons dissagree with eachother is a good thing because it gives me hope that they do not follow blindly-atleast one of them doesnt.

I'd like to add that even the temple has human influences, the purpose of being married in temple is false, you are married before God. This can be done in the Temple(ofcourse to me earth is the temple) or in heaven. The fact that one will be married is the primal point of that arguement. If you become a god you will be married. Even if you have to have the ceremony after your dead.

If you are a god over your own planet how will you see loved ones?
You do realise that as a God, you could be in Hawaii and India at the same time? very Earthly minded question.

Jenos on page 6 you told me you were an atheist, on page 9 you claimed yourself a christian... make up your mind!

Oh, and listen to your heart to guide you, not some minister passing a collection plate. Then maybe you'll figure out what this Jesus thing was all about.IMHO
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Postby Nephilim on Sat May 12, 2007 3:58 pm

ok, i think beastly's lengthy red/blue letter post addresses a lot of the questions here. the one before it wasn't as good though:

Beastly wrote:The Book of Mormon speaks of the great and "abominable" church (1 Nephi 13; 1 Nephi 22, among others). This has historically referred to the Protestant and Catholic churches, in spite of more recent efforts to tone down such language.

The following teachings are embodied in LDS scripture:

All Christian churches are wrong, all their creeds are an abomination before God, and all people who profess those beliefs are corrupt. (Paraphrase, Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, J.S. History 1:19)

Is it any wonder that biblical Christians find LDS teachings and scriptures offensive? Or how about the following concepts that were taught by many of the early apostles:

Christians are "ripening for the damnation of Hell." (Teachings of Joseph Smith, 298)

Both Catholics and Protestants are said to be the "whore of Babylon." (Brigham Young, J.O.D. 16:46, and Orson Pratt, The Seer, 255)


there have been and still are many christian groups that consider themselves the only proper/correct group. roman catholics and many protestant groups have excluded other groups for centuries. there are recognized groups that are stridently opposed to creeds as extrabiblical. protestants have read "the whore" and many other negative biblical images as references to the catholic church for a long time. so the LDS church does not have a monopoly on exclusivity; you've heard of catholic/protestant violence, rite? my point is: in and of itself, this exclusivity stuff does not render them non-christian.

again, beastly, i think your long post raised a lot of the bigger issues here, nice work. i just want to quibble with a couple things, for argument's sake. one i've said before: "orthodoxy" isn't really a settled position, now or in the past. there have been many debates about who jesus really is/was, and about his relationship/equality with god. also, i'm interested in more on this subject:

Beastly wrote:Mormons believe =The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church currently in existence on the earth. It is the restoration of what had been lost in the first decades of the church.

Christians believe=The "true church" is invisible, and is comprised of all people who have placed their faith in the true Jesus Christ, and is not bound by any denomination or tradition. The denial of an apostate church is based on Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not overcome it" (Matthew 16:18


i find the second part to be remarkably optimistic in an ecumenical sense. you must realize that whoever you are quoting has a clear perspective and opinion on the question, and many more voices might be heard on it. again, there are tons of churches that are quite exclusivist. in fact, many people here are making arguments to exclude LDS folks from the "mainstream church." what is the standard for this? what is the standard for the "true, invisible church" your source references? just some questions....

it seems the real difficulties revolve around trinitarian stuff, the nature of God/Jesus, and the scripture issue. plenty more to talk about, and barunt, i bet our LDS friends are just not online as much on the weekends, so hopefully this isn't over.

The1exile wrote:
Nephilim wrote:mr. incrediball and the 1exile, judging from your comments you don't know much about christianity or logic. please stop talking.


Care to explain why?


sure:

The1exile wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Genesis...."Let us create man in our image." Who was God talking too? The other members of the trinity. Jesus has always existed. Christians believe in a triune God that consists of 3 persons who are eternal and are equal to each other.


Like when the Royal family refers to themselves as "we", perhaps? Or just a bad translation?

I was raised a Catholic and this is the first I've ever heard that Jesus was around forever. Not saying it's wrong, just that if you're denouncing tyhem for that, then you're going to have to cut a lot more than just Mormons out of xianity.


jesus' equality with god and eternal existence are basic tenets of "classic" christianity (whatever that is), including the catholic church. this thread contains some arguments on that point; if you're not aware of a very key point in christian (and catholic) doctrine, then maybe you don't belong in the argument. cheers
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Postby Iz Man on Sat May 12, 2007 5:45 pm

b.k. barunt wrote: If i was Jesus, i'd come to America first just to slap the shit out of all the self righteous assholes on the religious right, but fortunately for them i'm not God.


As if there aren't self righteous a-holes on the left?

please........ :?
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Postby static_ice on Sat May 12, 2007 6:08 pm

ok sorry this is several pages late, but I reread the first and second pages and found some things that I just had to comment on...

mr. incrediball wrote:oh, mormons are what americans call the moonies!

umm no very big difference...I'm a "moonie" and uhhh no...

Iz Man wrote:The moonies were a cult in the '70's.


well everyone thought we were...

Iz Man wrote:The Moonies & those nutcases in California that committed mass suicide thinking a spaceship in the tail of a comet was coming to save them are cults.


Is the latter group supposed to be the Scientologists? because I find it hilariously offensive to be compared to them...


Guilty_Biscuit wrote:
Firsty - Let us not forget that Christianity began life as a Jewish sect (denomination or 'cult' in your terms). Now - there are hundreds of sects (denominations or 'cults' in your terms) within Christianity. They will all argue over what it means to be a "true" Christian but the fact remains that they are all Christian denominations...

etc...
Unity Church
etc...
Of course there are hundreds more than that. Most of the sects will claim that they are the 'true' way but none can prove it. The fact is that they are all Christians.


do you mean the unification church, cuz that's our official name...
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Postby Beastly on Sat May 12, 2007 6:48 pm

Nephilim wrote:ok, i think beastly's lengthy red/blue letter post addresses a lot of the questions here.

I did not post a LETTER, I posted a reply to a LDS person who was saying that we should look past all the things we consider nonsense, and look at the "basic" beliefs. I wanted to show the LDS person that what they consider a common belief among the "Christian" sec does not have the same meanings. for example, their God, Jesus,and Holy Spirit, ect. .



there have been and still are many christian groups that consider themselves the only proper/correct group.

This thread isn't discussing any other groups


"orthodoxy" isn't really a settled position, now or in the past. there have been many debates about who jesus really is/was, and about his relationship/equality with god. also, i'm interested in more on this subject:

Why don't you start another thread about this subject?

Beastly wrote:Mormons believe =The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church currently in existence on the earth. It is the restoration of what had been lost in the first decades of the church.

Christians believe=The "true church" is invisible, and is comprised of all people who have placed their faith in the true Jesus Christ, and is not bound by any denomination or tradition. The denial of an apostate church is based on Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not overcome it" (Matthew 16:18


i find the second part to be remarkably optimistic in an ecumenical sense. you must realize that whoever you are quoting has a clear perspective and opinion on the question, and many more voices might be heard on it. again, there are tons of churches that are quite exclusivist. in fact, many people here are making arguments to exclude LDS folks from the "mainstream church." what is the standard for this? what is the standard for the "true, invisible church" your source references? just some questions....

I was not Quoting anybody. What I meant by mainstream is the Christian denominations, without naming them all. a better way to find out if I did not state correctly is to ask all the different religions, if what I said was correct.
As far as "true, invisible church" that is not what i said.. I was very clear about what the "true church" is considered. In other words its not the building you are in, or the Temple you are married in, (all man made) or religious offiliation, but is comprised of all people who have placed their faith in the true Jesus Christ (the Jesus from the bible only). I gave you the bible reference. if you want more info go to a bible web page and type in Church search. you will be able to read yourself.


And just to add...I have to say... that I love many LDS people, and many have taken me in as "family" even tho I don't believe the same things as them. And I have had many LDS turn me away because I wear a cross. (which was offensive to them) I believe that LDS people and all people alike will be judged one day, by Christ, and it is not for me or any religious group to decide who will be in Heaven and who won't be. I only don't believe in the Book of Mormon because I have studied it, and decided for myself that it is impossible to be correct according to what the bible says. When a person studies like this and has the findings that I found they have to decide whether to believe the Bible or the Book of Mormon. You have to understand that most people who become LDS don't study the way I did. They only see the "basic" stuff and not the other things.
I had alot of questions, because I was around Mormons most of life. And I knew them, I saw the people who were Married in the Temple, (knowing thats the only way to be in the best Heaven) become divorced. That raised alot of questions. I had a LDS friend die from Cancer at the age of 16. Because of her religion she was not scared because she knew she would be with her family in Heaven... It wasn't being with Jesus. and I had to wonder, if 3 of her older brothers who went on Missions and were married in the Temple were going to be gods in Heaven, then which brother was she going to be with.

and Bk I doubt there will be any reply to anything from anymore LDS people, because thats what they do... They are not allowed to question anything or read anything that makes them think anything different from what they are taught.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Sat May 12, 2007 7:28 pm

static_ice wrote:ok sorry this is several pages late, but I reread the first and second pages and found some things that I just had to comment on...
Funny that you are still avoiding replies to Beastly's documented contradictions (posted before these posts that you "just had to comment on"), and my post way back about why no physical evidence of the massive civilization that the Book of Mormon describes. Optimo seems to have lost interest and left it to you to do the honors. Yea Beastly, i know how they are - very similar to the JWs in evasive tactics - but i don't let them dodge without calling a lot of attention to it.
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Postby Iz Man on Sat May 12, 2007 7:37 pm

static_ice wrote:
Iz Man wrote:The moonies were a cult in the '70's.


well everyone thought we were...

Iz Man wrote:The Moonies & those nutcases in California that committed mass suicide thinking a spaceship in the tail of a comet was coming to save them are cults.


Is the latter group supposed to be the Scientologists? because I find it hilariously offensive to be compared to them...


The moonies were a cult, those loonies in Cali were not scientlologists, and I don't care if you take offense to being compared to a scientologist. Although, I doubt that you are a moonie.....
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Postby rallison on Sat May 12, 2007 9:05 pm

hey all, just wanted to post real quick. On beastly's comparisons, i think you did some excellent work. One thing that i want to add right now is that while yes we do believe that we are the only church with God's authority, we do think that all churches are good as long as they teach faith in christ, and people to do good things.

I have been busy doing stuff today (washing the car, laundry, etc) so this is the only time ive looked at this thread. I will post a more comprehensive reply to the questions and stuff tomorrow when i have more time. Got to spend some quality time with the wife now :-).

I wont run out on this thread as long as i feel that people are really interested in discussing it rationally. Even if there are some things that i dont know how to answer, or make me look bad
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Postby The1exile on Sat May 12, 2007 9:09 pm

Nephilim wrote:
The1exile wrote:
Nephilim wrote:mr. incrediball and the 1exile, judging from your comments you don't know much about christianity or logic. please stop talking.


Care to explain why?


sure:

The1exile wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Genesis...."Let us create man in our image." Who was God talking too? The other members of the trinity. Jesus has always existed. Christians believe in a triune God that consists of 3 persons who are eternal and are equal to each other.


Like when the Royal family refers to themselves as "we", perhaps? Or just a bad translation?

I was raised a Catholic and this is the first I've ever heard that Jesus was around forever. Not saying it's wrong, just that if you're denouncing tyhem for that, then you're going to have to cut a lot more than just Mormons out of xianity.


jesus' equality with god and eternal existence are basic tenets of "classic" christianity (whatever that is), including the catholic church. this thread contains some arguments on that point; if you're not aware of a very key point in christian (and catholic) doctrine, then maybe you don't belong in the argument. cheers


Bullshit, now you're straight out saying "You're wrong I'm right because I say so." What makes you have more knowledge of the faith I was raised in and have had to study for the last 11 years than me?
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Postby 2dimes on Sun May 13, 2007 1:00 am

Iz Man wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Iz Man wrote:The moonies were a cult in the '70's.


well everyone thought we were...

Iz Man wrote:The Moonies & those nutcases in California that committed mass suicide thinking a spaceship in the tail of a comet was coming to save them are cults.


Is the latter group supposed to be the Scientologists? because I find it hilariously offensive to be compared to them...


The moonies were a cult, those loonies in Cali were not scientlologists, and I don't care if you take offense to being compared to a scientologist. Although, I doubt that you are a moonie.....
I guess I can't add much regarding the latter day saints for now, but..

The guys in Cali were "Heaven's gate".
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun May 13, 2007 3:22 am

b.k. barunt wrote:Beastly has made some excellent and well documented points about blatant contradictions in Mormon Scripture. Why haven't these been replied to? Is the discussion over?


No, just that the atheists here are stuck on their agenda to trash-talk the 'Bible-Thumbers' and the Mormans can't get together on what lies their trying to tell people.
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Postby reptile on Sun May 13, 2007 3:27 am

Iz Man wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Alright, the difference. A "true" Christian is one who is born again. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again he can not enter the Kingdom of God." There may be in fact a Mormon who has accepted Christ as his/her savior. But that being said, the Mormon as well as Jehovah Witness religions (and others) teach a false doctrine and where they "claim" to be Christian are not. A common word to describe such religions is cults.


I'm not Mormon, but from what I understand Mormons believe in the words of the Bible, both Old & New Testaments. In addition to that is the Book of Mormon.

Mormon is also recognized as an "official" religion. I don't know, but I'm guessing Mormons would find it quite offensive to refer to them as a "cult".

The Moonies & those nutcases in California that committed mass suicide thinking a spaceship in the tail of a comet was coming to save them are cults.


i agree with jay_a2j, however i they are a legal cult.. lol. i believe that everyone can say they are christians, but taht doesnt mean they are. and the book of mormon is a bunch of bullshit that someone wrote to make the bible more to their liking and their own personall beliefs. there are many things that contradict the bible too. explain that!
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Postby got tonkaed on Sun May 13, 2007 3:34 am

reptile wrote: the book of mormon is a bunch of bullshit that someone wrote to make the bible more to their liking and their own personall beliefs.


Although i dont know your religious background for certain....would you like it if we replaced the book of mormon with the bible in the quote there...Ex. "The bible is a bunch of bullshit that someone wrote to make Judiasm more to their liking and their own personal beliefs". Yes i realize semantically teh translation is a touch off but thats not the point. If that was offensive to you, then your statement was offensive to them. Ethnocentrism does nothing to further honest discussion. Although im not 100 percent sold all the time on religious tolerance (it has some drawbacks (read sam harris)) a lack of tolerance all together does little to honor anyones religion.

*Thats not my personal opinion of the bible, just wanted to clear that up to help illustrate the following point*
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun May 13, 2007 3:43 am

Beastly wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote:Like, perhaps these ones which we refer to in the LDS Church as our Articles of Faith. They were written down by Joseph Smith to answer what the most basic tenets of our faith are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


Mormons believe= that God the Father is an exalted man, with a body (D&C 130:22), and that men can become gods (D&C 88:107).

Prophet Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet "As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become" is backed up by many other statements from Joseph Smith.


Christians believe=God is spirit, (John 4:24) and the idea of a man becoming as God is, is considered blasphemy. Jesus himself was accused of blasphemy for claiming to be God (John 10:33); and it would have been, had he not been God. Here a distinction needs to be made between God becoming man (incarnation), which the Bible teaches; and man becoming God (exaltation), which has no biblical foundation.



Mormons Jesus is "divine", but only in the sense of being an exalted man. He is not considered equal to the Father, therefore, is not to be worshiped in the same way as the Father. He was a created being, and separate from God the Father. Jesus is the "spirit brother" of Lucifer and, ultimately, all humans; his uniqueness was based on the fact that he was conceived physically by God the Father. Jesus Christ was conceived as the result of a physical union of God the Father and Mary.
References:
JS History 1:17


orthodox Christians Jesus is called the Son of God, and is portrayed as being one with God (John 10:30), being God (John 1:1-3), and even the Old Testament prophesies point to a "Son" that will be called "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). He is to be worshiped as God (e.g. Luke 24:52) See also Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3. Jesus was begotten Not Made, and was of Virgin Birth. The Bible teaches that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and that Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.

how Mormons believe=The "Trinity" is the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, but are separate entities, though one in purpose. The Son is not eternal, but is a created being (that is, there was a time he did not exist in his current form, and therefore a time when the Father was not the Father.)

how Christians believe=The doctrine of the Trinity is, to put it simply, the synthesis of the Bible's declaration that there is one God; and that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God.

References:
Matthew 3:16
Matthew 28:18-19
Luke 1:35
John 20:21-22


Mormonism has historically taught in a plurality of gods, presumably of other worlds, albeit that we are to worship only the god of this world. (This teaching has been significantly de-emphasized, at least in any public arena, in modern Mormonism.)

The Bible makes it extremely clear that God alone is God, and there is no other.
Mark 12:29
Isaiah 44:6




2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

Mormons believe=Mormonism teaches that Adam's sin opened the way for God's ultimate "plan of salvation" (exaltation), and that only through that plan can men be exalted (become gods). (See 2 Nephi 2:22 and following.) Mormonism further teaches that were it not for the fall, there would be no procreation (Moses 5:11).


Christians believe=The Bible teaches that Adam's sin introduced sin to all mankind; while it necessitated God's plan of salvation (redemption through Jesus Christ), it did not "open the way" to godhood. There is nothing to indicate that procreation was only possible because of the fall.


Mormons believe=humans are incarnated "spirit children" of God the Father, as is Jesus and Lucifer, and that we existed in Heaven prior to our birth on earth. (D&C 93:23 & 29)


Christians believe=The Bible speaks of pre-knowledge, but there is nothing to suggest existence prior to conception (e.g., Jeremiah 1:5).


Mormonism teaches that there are three levels of Heaven; the Celestial (which itself has three degrees, see D&C 131), Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is reserved for faithful Mormons (and the highest degree for those married in the temple). The terrestrial is reserved for those who were decent people who rejected the Mormon gospel, and the telestial for those who are wicked. (See D&C 88:21-24)


Heaven is the dwelling place of God, and the destination of those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ.


3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Mormons believe=Salvation in Mormonism has a dual meaning; one is universal salvation, which is what the sacrifice of Jesus brought all people, good and evil alike, and refers only to resurrection from the dead.

The other salvation is essentially referring to exaltation, which is dependent upon one's worthiness and obedience on Earth.
Mormonism teaches that worthy men can become gods (and women goddesses), equal to God. Less worthy individuals are then assigned to varying degrees of heaven, with the worst of the bunch in eternal "outer darkness



Christians believe=Salvation is the free gift of Jesus Christ to all who believe in him; it is salvation from hell, and salvation to eternal life with God.
The Bible teaches that the eternal destiny of mankind is one of two things--eternal life with God for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ; those are made immortal and perfected (but not gods); and eternal separation from God (hell) for those who do not.



4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mormons believe=The "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" are distinct terms in Mormonism. The "Holy Ghost" is the third personage of the godhead, while the "Holy Spirit" represents the presence of God but not a distinct personage.

References:
Jacob 6:8
D&C 121:26
D&C 130:22


Christians believe=Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are one and the same ("Holy Ghost" most commonly used in the King James version, "Holy Spirit" in more contemporary translations); The Holy Spirit is an entity, not merely a representational term, and yet is equated with God (for example, Acts 5:3-4 uses the Holy Spirit and God interchangeably.) The Holy Spirit is eternal (Hebrews 9:14) and one who teaches (John 14:26).


5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Mormons believe= that the Bible has been corrupted, and that vital portions have been lost, deleted, or distorted, and that the LDS scriptures are a restoration of what was lost in the Bible. In Mormonism, the Gospel is referred to as the "restored" gospel, God's "plan of salvation" which involves pre-existing spirit children to be born of earthly parents, pass through life on earth, and be given the opportunity to, via their earthly worthiness, eventually reach exaltation (godhood).


Christians believe=Orthodox Christianity rests upon the authority of the Bible alone as the Word of God. In Christianity, the gospel is the redemption of fallen humanity by the sacrifice and free gift of Jesus Christ, through faith in Him alone, which saves from eternal separation from God (hell) and grants eternal life (being with God forever).


9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Mormons believe =The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church currently in existence on the earth. It is the restoration of what had been lost in the first decades of the church.


Christians believe=The "true church" is invisible, and is comprised of all people who have placed their faith in the true Jesus Christ, and is not bound by any denomination or tradition. The denial of an apostate church is based on Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not overcome it" (Matthew 16:18


12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.



I hope this shows the difference in what the Mormons believe and what the Orthodox Christians believe,even tho the Mormons think it is the same, it really isn't.



Jenos Ridan wrote:
Nephilim wrote:wow, this thread is moving fast. ok......

i wanna say: jenos ridan and beastly are making some fairly ignorant remarks. please try to remember that you do not speak for all of christendom or define christianity. this thread is of course filled with opinions, but try to remember that what you say IS your opinion, and you do not have a ton of authority. look for something to back yourself up.

mr. incrediball and the 1exile, judging from your comments you don't know much about christianity or logic. please stop talking.

also, everyone please relax

optimus, when looking for a description of christian identity, please don't use a dictionary. one of the classic creeds might be a better place, as i suggested before. i think i will do a comparison of your post on the basic LDS beliefs and some of the creeds, and see what we come up with.

beastly and barunt have made some fair points about the differences between LDS folks and more mainstream xtns, but please let's remember, none of us are experts and we shouldn't pretend to be such. also, if your spelling is awful, you lose credibility, at least in my book. cheers



Jenos Ridan wrote:Hey, I can't help it if what I hear from Mormans about Mormanism is contrary to the contradictions they believe in. True, I DO have an opinion. I DO represent one of many demoniations (that is, one of many 'non-demoninational' churches), but not ALL the churches. But, Most churches I've been to other than mine say that Mormans are NOT christian. And from what I'm seeing here, that just solidifes my prior positon on the matter. Not justifies, SOLIDIFIES.


If that doesn't end the debate, then no argument, no matter how well thought out, well written and/or impassioned, will ever do it. End of story.
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Postby Skittles! on Sun May 13, 2007 4:38 am

Who's to say that one belief shouldn't be in Christianity?
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun May 13, 2007 5:13 am

Skittles! wrote:Who's to say that one belief shouldn't be in Christianity?


['evil' Jenos activated] WTFHGD! I thought you were on OUR side! [evil mode off]

Still, if it is contrary to the Word, then it is contrary to the Spirit of the Word.
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Postby Beastly on Sun May 13, 2007 6:55 am

Optimus Prime wrote:Secondly, I don't understand the "No sin is greater than another" line. That is not quite true, certain sins carry a heavier weight, but getting to a certain level of heaven has to do with how many sins you commit and whether or not you repent of them, not which ones they were.



"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
man does not has the ability to stop sinning if he simply chooses to.

Unlike crime, which involves the breaking of human law, sin is a condition of the heart or an expression of that condition where we are estranged from God and fail to trust in God.
Sin expresses itself in particular acts.

man is hopelessly enslaved by his sins (apart from God’s intervention) and his good works are “dead” or worthless in meriting God’s favor (Ephesians 2:1-2; Matthew 15:18-19; Romans 7:23; Hebrews 6:1; 9:14).

This is why many don't consider LDS members to be "Christian".

Religious syncretism is simply not compatible with true Christianity. In fact, any modification to Biblical law and principle for the sake of a better religion is heresy (Revelation 22:18-19).
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Postby Skittles! on Sun May 13, 2007 7:05 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Skittles! wrote:Who's to say that one belief shouldn't be in Christianity?


['evil' Jenos activated] WTFHGD! I thought you were on OUR side! [evil mode off]

Still, if it is contrary to the Word, then it is contrary to the Spirit of the Word.


"OUR", there's no our in the world. Everyone is equal, just because someone has different beliefs doesn't mean they're different from you.
And no, I'm not religious.

That doesn't really answer my question.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Sun May 13, 2007 10:55 am

Allow me to further clarify here, just in case jenos thinks i'm on his "side" too. I lay no claims to following Jesus, and from jenos' behavior, i don't know why he does. The Mormons haven't done a very good job of defending their faith here, but they have refrained from returning insults that jenos and exile (and myself) have given them. No jenos, just because some of us are against Mormonism, that does not make us on your "side". I won't drag the name of Jesus through the mud by claiming to follow him if my life does not reflect His teachings - maybe you should do the same (James 3:17).
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Postby fluffybunnykins on Sun May 13, 2007 11:00 am

We had some mormons that called by once a week when we lived in Hull. We engaged in some pretty decent conversations, but they always refused to come in, sit down, have a drink with us, etc. what's that about? Is there a rule about that for mormons?
Anyway, they suddenly stopped calling after we asked if we could look at the bible together...
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Postby 2dimes on Sun May 13, 2007 11:03 am

Ah religion is so strange and wonderfull.

Why do the LDS guys want so bad to be labeled with a term used to describe people that don't want to be compared to them and whom would not be allowed to recieve the highest levels of acheivement in your church, due to a refusal to participate in the rituals and believe your doctorine?
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Postby 2dimes on Sun May 13, 2007 11:07 am

fluffybunnykins wrote:We had some mormons that called by once a week when we lived in Hull. We engaged in some pretty decent conversations, but they always refused to come in, sit down, have a drink with us, etc. what's that about? Is there a rule about that for mormons?
Yeah I find that a litte strange too. I have managed to give a couple orange punch and a few more water but it seems to take nearly forcefull convincing. I think they are not supposed to be accepting things while on mission.
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Postby static_ice on Sun May 13, 2007 11:20 am

b.k. barunt wrote:
static_ice wrote:ok sorry this is several pages late, but I reread the first and second pages and found some things that I just had to comment on...
Funny that you are still avoiding replies to Beastly's documented contradictions (posted before these posts that you "just had to comment on"), and my post way back about why no physical evidence of the massive civilization that the Book of Mormon describes. Optimo seems to have lost interest and left it to you to do the honors. Yea Beastly, i know how they are - very similar to the JWs in evasive tactics - but i don't let them dodge without calling a lot of attention to it.


ummm all I did at the beginning of this thread was post my 2 bits, I didn't really want to partake in any argument about the mormons that tooks work :lol: . That is why I didn't post anything to beastly...I don't want to be in this argument really...Later I reread things and I wanted to comment on them because it seemed people got the wrong idea...

I don't see why optimo would leave anything to me, I said just one thing and after that I didn't argue about anything at all, so even if my first post was agreeable with his stance, I am not really in this argument all I did was post some theory.

Iz Man wrote:The moonies were a cult, those loonies in Cali were not scientlologists, and I don't care if you take offense to being compared to a scientologist. Although, I doubt that you are a moonie.....


I would like to know what you think you know about us that makes you so sure that we were a cult.

I thought the "loonies" in Cali were scientologists based on the episode of Southpark about scientology when they committed mass suicide for a tax excempt :lol: ...and even if the mass suiciders weren't scientologists, my "cult" would take offense to being compared to anyone who commits mass suicide, scientologists or not.

And I don't care that you doubt that I'm a moonie, cuz I am and you haven't shown any info about how much you know about us to judge someone enough to tell whether they are a moonie or not.
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