Education in the USA

[tzor]

If I posted ten or fifteen youtube videos about Italians in the Mafia, your conclusion would be that all or most Italians are in the Mafia. That is not even close to reasonable.

I'm reminded of an old Mad Magazine spoof on the Godfather; there was a meeting in Miami. Going from memory; this was the conversation.

"Are you the only Jew in the Mafia?"

"Are you the only Italian in Miami?"

[Woodruff]

If I posted ten or fifteen youtube videos about Italians in the Mafia, your conclusion would be that all or most Italians are in the Mafia. That is not even close to reasonable.

I'm reminded of an old Mad Magazine spoof on the Godfather; there was a meeting in Miami. Going from memory; this was the conversation.

"Are you the only Jew in the Mafia?"

"Are you the only Italian in Miami?"

Uh...I didn't say that.

[Gillipig]

Not all mafias are Italian, but all Italians are in the mafia.

[tzor]

Not all mafias are Italian, but all Italians are in the mafia.

Totally incorrect. Families are regional, not national. So it depends on the region.

Sicily, Naples, Calabria, Potenza. Apulia and Veneto ... Mostly southern Italy/Sicily. Here's a distribution map.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

"Far Side Entomology" (Oregon State)

yusssss. I should take that.

-TG

[Gillipig]

Not all mafias are Italian, but all Italians are in the mafia.

Totally incorrect. Families are regional, not national. So it depends on the region.

Sicily, Naples, Calabria, Potenza. Apulia and Veneto ... Mostly southern Italy/Sicily. Here's a distribution map.

Aha, so it's only in these regions that every Italian is part of the mafia. Good to know.

[pimpdave]

America's education system was designed at McGill University in 1629.

[Phatscotty]

[tzor]

I can't believe that when I went to college, they had conservative shows on PBS, for goodness sake. (Firing Line by William F. Buckley Jr.) OK it was ONE show, but look at PBS today!

[Woodruff]

I can't believe that when I went to college, they had conservative shows on PBS, for goodness sake. (Firing Line by William F. Buckley Jr.) OK it was ONE show, but look at PBS today!

All I ever watch are Nova and Rick Steves.

[PLAYER57832]

The same can be said for most atheists as well. We think we are better than all believers because we use our sense of logic to determine whether there exists a god or not, while they go by faith.

No, you use belief, but pretend it matches the definition of logic because it is your belief, not ours.

Logic doesn't preclude either idea. Logic dictates that God cannot be proven or disproven. Anyone claiming otherwise is not using logic, they are talking belief. In my mind, someone who pretends to use logic while violating its most fundamental precepts is more than misguided. They are lying to themselves.

The one fundamental truth is that many people want to feel superior to others and so will latch onto any excuse to do so.

[PLAYER57832]

And yet... Reagan, still noted as the conservative hero, was elected in 1980 and from CA, bastion of liberality.. where he governed for many years.

[Woodruff]

The same can be said for most atheists as well. We think we are better than all believers because we use our sense of logic to determine whether there exists a god or not, while they go by faith.

No, you use belief, but pretend it matches the definition of logic because it is your belief, not ours.

Logic doesn't preclude either idea. Logic dictates that God cannot be proven or disproven. Anyone claiming otherwise is not using logic, they are talking belief. In my mind, someone who pretends to use logic while violating its most fundamental precepts is more than misguided. They are lying to themselves.

You do realize that most atheists ARE of the agnostic variety exactly because of what you're saying here, right? Because they are.

[tzor]

And yet... Reagan, still noted as the conservative hero, was elected in 1980 and from CA, bastion of liberality.. where he governed for many years.

There you go again.

[tzor]

All I ever watch are Nova and Rick Steves.

In remember in college as a physics major in a department of (mostly radio) astronomers the faux outrage that they had towards Carl Sagan, "You're not supposed to make REAL MONEY from Astronomy!"

But what do you expect from people who study the stars during the day in nice air conditioned rooms in tropical lands while they joke about the poor optical guys who have to go to mountains and work in the cold at night!

[waauw]

some interesting info:

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Click image to enlarge.

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[Lootifer]

The only thing I take issue with on your first chart is the title: they immediately equate having a degree to being smart. I see dumb people with degrees all the time

[Woodruff]

The only thing I take issue with on your first chart is the title: they immediately equate having a degree to being smart. I see dumb people with degrees all the time

Agreed. To me, a degree shows important things, such as a willingness to work to get where you want to be and perhaps being goal-oriented (although that could be questioned). But it doesn't so much equate to being intelligent.

[PLAYER57832]

The only thing I take issue with on your first chart is the title: they immediately equate having a degree to being smart. I see dumb people with degrees all the time

Agreed. To me, a degree shows important things, such as a willingness to work to get where you want to be and perhaps being goal-oriented (although that could be questioned). But it doesn't so much equate to being intelligent.

More and more it has to do with being fortunate enough to live in the right area, one where you get funding and support. It also has a lot to do with "rule following", which too often is diametrically the opposite of real thinking.

[Woodruff]

The only thing I take issue with on your first chart is the title: they immediately equate having a degree to being smart. I see dumb people with degrees all the time

Agreed. To me, a degree shows important things, such as a willingness to work to get where you want to be and perhaps being goal-oriented (although that could be questioned). But it doesn't so much equate to being intelligent.

More and more it has to do with being fortunate enough to live in the right area, one where you get funding and support. It also has a lot to do with "rule following", which too often is diametrically the opposite of real thinking.

I agree with the suggestion about rule-following (and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, from a hiring perspective). I don't agree with the idea of it being "luck". Not these days when there are so many scholarships available that are not even being used.

[thegreekdog]

The only thing I take issue with on your first chart is the title: they immediately equate having a degree to being smart. I see dumb people with degrees all the time

Agreed. To me, a degree shows important things, such as a willingness to work to get where you want to be and perhaps being goal-oriented (although that could be questioned). But it doesn't so much equate to being intelligent.

More and more it has to do with being fortunate enough to live in the right area, one where you get funding and support. It also has a lot to do with "rule following", which too often is diametrically the opposite of real thinking.

I agree with the suggestion about rule-following (and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, from a hiring perspective). I don't agree with the idea of it being "luck". Not these days when there are so many scholarships available that are not even being used.

From Player's perspective, if you are successful it mostly has to do with luck (or being born with money... which, technically, is also luck).

[Lootifer]

I am not sold she ardently believes its only luck. I think its more of luck (or as you say being born into luck) gives you a very powerful advantage.

Its somewhat undeniable that getting from some place x to y is much easier when x already has a lot of the comforts and advantages of previous money/success. (y being "success").

An analogy is intelligence. I am pretty sure you could have cruised along in life and still done pretty well (I know I could have) simply because you were born with some natural intelligence.

[Woodruff]

I am not sold she ardently believes its only luck. I think its more of luck (or as you say being born into luck) gives you a very powerful advantage.

If she doesn't believe that, she should be more clear then. Because she definitely comes across to me as believing that success in America is about 90% luck, as well.

As far as it being a powerful advantage to be born with money, well sure it is...I don't know anyone who would disagree with that. But that's a rather different issue than being successful.

[PLAYER57832]

The only thing I take issue with on your first chart is the title: they immediately equate having a degree to being smart. I see dumb people with degrees all the time

Agreed. To me, a degree shows important things, such as a willingness to work to get where you want to be and perhaps being goal-oriented (although that could be questioned). But it doesn't so much equate to being intelligent.

More and more it has to do with being fortunate enough to live in the right area, one where you get funding and support. It also has a lot to do with "rule following", which too often is diametrically the opposite of real thinking.

I agree with the suggestion about rule-following (and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, from a hiring perspective). I don't agree with the idea of it being "luck". Not these days when there are so many scholarships available that are not even being used.

Yeah, like the ones for single mothers with kids... if you are married, need not apply. (PLENTY of those) Or, the ones for an American of Armenian dissent studying astronomic engineering. Oh, yeah, and a few for those poor illegal aliens who don't qualify for other types of assistance.

The rest of the "aid" is loans, and fewer and fewer degrees result in a career that make paying those loans back practical, particularly if you are not young and just starting out.

From Player's perspective, if you are successful it mostly has to do with luck (or being born with money... which, technically, is also luck).

Not just "my perspective", sorry to break your illusions.

If you ask most people why they are successful, they inevitably say "hard work, dedication", and so forth. BUT, if you really track why people get the jobs they get and opportunities they get, it really heavily depends on who they know. This operates directly -- if you are not in the "right network", you just don't hear about most jobs. You go to an interview and if you can chat about baseball or your fraternity or whatever, you have a connection that will make your other qualifications just seem more amenable. It also happens indirectly, as the "right" connections mean you have the "right manners", know the clubs to join, the right wording for your resumes, etc, etc, etc.

I will track down the studies, even though I doubt you will actually read them .