Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

[rallison]

I dont think anyone wants this to degrade into name calling or anything like that, I just want to have the chance to explain what we believe.

I consider your mum to be a christian

lol thanks

[Dancing Mustard]

I dont think anyone wants this to degrade into name calling or anything like that, I just want to have the chance to explain what we believe.

I consider your mum to be a christian

lol thanks

Yeah! Put that in your pipe and smoke it! I'll have this remarkably controlled and rational discussion de-railed and sent to Flame Wars in no time!

[b.k. barunt]

Did anyone see the SouthPark episode about Mormonism? Optimo, you might not like people quoting your more bizarre beliefs to you, but they are your beliefs, so if the shoe fits . . . Also, both you and the other Mormon keep saying that you believe in Jesus' atonement for sins, and you have not responded to my citing the opposite from your own documents. Mormon doctrine states clearly that Jesus' atonement covers some, but not all sins. Christian doctrine states that all sins are atoned for by the blood sacrifice of Jesus. I have always found the behavior of Mormons as a whole to be exemplary - far more godly than most of the "Jesus freaks" on this site, and certainly more than myself, in my state of reprobation. But good behavior does not make what you believe true. Why can't you be honest and admit that Mormonism and Christianity are not the same? If yours is the true church, why do you need to ride on the coattails of Christianity? One more thing Optimo, you said that Mormons believe in the "principles of the doctrine of Christ", which are listed in Hebrews 6:1 & 2. There are 6 of them listed, but according to you Mormons believe in only 4 of them. What happened to the other 2?

[rallison]

you mean the one where everyone is in hell and the guy announces that mormons were the correct religion? I dont watch much south park, but i have seen a couple clips...

[b.k. barunt]

Damn, don't tell me you guys are rewriting SouthPark too?

[Optimus Prime]

You do realize that both of the creators of South Park were Mormon at one point, right?

[Optimus Prime]

Which 2 of the 6 principles am I missing? I'm not following you all the way. I just read those verses.

As far as you citing sources that have to do with us not believing Christ suffered for all the sins, I guess I have missed that one, you'll have to name them for me again. Sorry about that.

[Optimus Prime]

Looked it up and here is a basic definition of "Christian":

1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings.

2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

3. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ.

4. decent; respectable.

5. human; not brutal; humane.

6. a person who believes in Jesus Christ.

7. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

Sorry to burst a lot of bubbles out there, but last time I checked every single one of these applies to the LDS Church. So I am not going to "just be honest and admit they aren't the same". They are.

[b.k. barunt]

Kind of a problem when you're trying to insert yourself into a group and the group won't acknowledge you. Maybe a bit like salr15 proclaiming himself "god of flame wars".

[Beastly]

You cannot attain a level of Godhood in our faith without being sealed in the temple. If you want to talk about just for those babies and things, look at rallison's post. He is plenty just in those circumstances.

So babies or people who die before they can ever be married or a handicapped person who will never marry, cannot attain Godhood!! You finally got the point!

That is discrimination. My God does not discriminate.

Also I had a friend who was LDS who was dying from Cancer, and she was so certain that she would be with her family in Heaven, I didn't question her because It wasn't my place to make her reconsider her beliefs, but HOW in the world is she going to be with her parents and brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and grandparents, IF they are there own Gods? and have their own planets and such? and she didn't have a chance to marry, she was only 16. Poor girl will never be to the best heaven. Ridiculous.

[Beastly]

now if anyone is following this...


we have 2 mormons here that don't even agree on the same subject... one says you can't attain godhood the other does not..

This thing is common upon Mormons because they are not taught all the contradictions within their doctrines.

Lets start with the Murder sin

Murder can be forgiven
3 Nephi 30:2


Murder cannot be forgiven
D&C 42:18

go check it out!!

There is one God
Alma 11:26-31
Alma 14:5

There are many Gods
D&C 76:58
D&C 121:28
D&C 132:20
Abraham 4:1-ff

Polygamy condemned
Jacob 1:15
Jacob 2:27
Ether 10:5


Polygamy commanded
D&C 132:1-4
D&C 132:37-39
D&C 132:61-62

[ParadiceCity9]

i know 3 mormons
every mormon is either a ginger or blond

[Nephilim]

wow, this thread is moving fast. ok......

i wanna say: jenos ridan and beastly are making some fairly ignorant remarks. please try to remember that you do not speak for all of christendom or define christianity. this thread is of course filled with opinions, but try to remember that what you say IS your opinion, and you do not have a ton of authority. look for something to back yourself up.

mr. incrediball and the 1exile, judging from your comments you don't know much about christianity or logic. please stop talking.

also, everyone please relax

optimus, when looking for a description of christian identity, please don't use a dictionary. one of the classic creeds might be a better place, as i suggested before. i think i will do a comparison of your post on the basic LDS beliefs and some of the creeds, and see what we come up with.

beastly and barunt have made some fair points about the differences between LDS folks and more mainstream xtns, but please let's remember, none of us are experts and we shouldn't pretend to be such. also, if your spelling is awful, you lose credibility, at least in my book. cheers

[Beastly]

Ah, but we do believe in Christ, and last time I checked, there ain't very many of us Mormons out there who go around bashing other folks churches. I'm sure there are a few here and there, but when was the last time you saw an anti-Baptist or anti-Methodist book published? Let me guess, never.

.

The Book of Mormon speaks of the great and "abominable" church (1 Nephi 13; 1 Nephi 22, among others). This has historically referred to the Protestant and Catholic churches, in spite of more recent efforts to tone down such language.

The following teachings are embodied in LDS scripture:

All Christian churches are wrong, all their creeds are an abomination before God, and all people who profess those beliefs are corrupt. (Paraphrase, Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, J.S. History 1:19)

Is it any wonder that biblical Christians find LDS teachings and scriptures offensive? Or how about the following concepts that were taught by many of the early apostles:

Christians are "ripening for the damnation of Hell." (Teachings of Joseph Smith, 298)

Both Catholics and Protestants are said to be the "whore of Babylon." (Brigham Young, J.O.D. 16:46, and Orson Pratt, The Seer, 255)

The God of Christianity is described as an idol, and a "loathsome, filthy, debauched, degraded monster." (John Taylor, J.O.D. 6:167)

Trying not to be ignorant anymore and not giving MY opinions.... is that better?

[JTFR]

i KNOW that Muslims like to fly planes into buildings and blow themselves up. Kinda like personal fireworks for non muslims. Or stupid human tricks. Or both. .

[2dimes]

I want to try out that new waffle sundae thing at dairy queen, it looks good.

[reverend_kyle]

I am not Mormon, however I Was raised around mormons, In Idaho, where Mormon religion was the majority religion.

Many of my friends were mormons, and I did go to church with them.

I can tell you for sure, My LDS friends love Jesus... As far as a personal relationship with him, NO ONE can know that, because it is personal.

Mormons are not considered Christian amongst other Christians, because Christians believe that Christ died, so sinners may be redeemed of there sins, and can go to heaven..

Mormons do not believe that... They earn there way to heaven and according to there deeds, they go to a level in heaven.. the best is they become Gods themselves and populate there own planets.

Christian faith is based on believing in your salvation threw the death of Christ, if you don't believe this you are not a Christian. Even in other cultures they believe Jesus was on this earth, but he is only a prophet.

Mormons don't believe in the Trinity, and that Jesus is God in human form.

My views exactly^^

The point is a christian is one who believes in christ as a savior basically.
Whether you believe their religion is true or that they are true christians they are christians because they believe in christ.

No, kyle just believing in Christ does not make you a Christian, according to the mainstream... Its the belief that his death is what saves you... Mormons save themselves, they go to heaven according to there good deeds.

But believe me, it is all not so perfect as is projected. I knew a Mormon who was a Pot dealer, and there are "mormons" who are called "Jack Mormons" that means they don't go to church.

That is incorrect. I went to a mormon church 'til I was 10, every day I was taught that because jesus died for our sins when we sin we can repent and if we mean it he will forgive us because HIS DEATH SAVED US.


and I don't see the relevance of the last part. Technically I'm a jack mormon because I'm baptized but don't believe in the church. I don't see what that has to do with them being christians. I know catholic drug dealers too.

[Beastly]

Like, perhaps these ones which we refer to in the LDS Church as our Articles of Faith. They were written down by Joseph Smith to answer what the most basic tenets of our faith are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


Mormons believe= that God the Father is an exalted man, with a body (D&C 130:22), and that men can become gods (D&C 88:107).

Prophet Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet "As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become" is backed up by many other statements from Joseph Smith.

Christians believe=God is spirit, (John 4:24) and the idea of a man becoming as God is, is considered blasphemy. Jesus himself was accused of blasphemy for claiming to be God (John 10:33); and it would have been, had he not been God. Here a distinction needs to be made between God becoming man (incarnation), which the Bible teaches; and man becoming God (exaltation), which has no biblical foundation.


Mormons Jesus is "divine", but only in the sense of being an exalted man. He is not considered equal to the Father, therefore, is not to be worshiped in the same way as the Father. He was a created being, and separate from God the Father. Jesus is the "spirit brother" of Lucifer and, ultimately, all humans; his uniqueness was based on the fact that he was conceived physically by God the Father. Jesus Christ was conceived as the result of a physical union of God the Father and Mary.
References:
JS History 1:17

orthodox Christians Jesus is called the Son of God, and is portrayed as being one with God (John 10:30), being God (John 1:1-3), and even the Old Testament prophesies point to a "Son" that will be called "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). He is to be worshiped as God (e.g. Luke 24:52) See also Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3. Jesus was begotten Not Made, and was of Virgin Birth. The Bible teaches that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and that Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.

how Mormons believe=The "Trinity" is the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, but are separate entities, though one in purpose. The Son is not eternal, but is a created being (that is, there was a time he did not exist in his current form, and therefore a time when the Father was not the Father.)

how Christians believe=The doctrine of the Trinity is, to put it simply, the synthesis of the Bible's declaration that there is one God; and that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God.

References:
Matthew 3:16
Matthew 28:18-19
Luke 1:35
John 20:21-22

Mormonism has historically taught in a plurality of gods, presumably of other worlds, albeit that we are to worship only the god of this world. (This teaching has been significantly de-emphasized, at least in any public arena, in modern Mormonism.)

The Bible makes it extremely clear that God alone is God, and there is no other.
Mark 12:29
Isaiah 44:6




2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

Mormons believe=Mormonism teaches that Adam's sin opened the way for God's ultimate "plan of salvation" (exaltation), and that only through that plan can men be exalted (become gods). (See 2 Nephi 2:22 and following.) Mormonism further teaches that were it not for the fall, there would be no procreation (Moses 5:11).

Christians believe=The Bible teaches that Adam's sin introduced sin to all mankind; while it necessitated God's plan of salvation (redemption through Jesus Christ), it did not "open the way" to godhood. There is nothing to indicate that procreation was only possible because of the fall.

Mormons believe=humans are incarnated "spirit children" of God the Father, as is Jesus and Lucifer, and that we existed in Heaven prior to our birth on earth. (D&C 93:23 & 29)

Christians believe=The Bible speaks of pre-knowledge, but there is nothing to suggest existence prior to conception (e.g., Jeremiah 1:5).

Mormonism teaches that there are three levels of Heaven; the Celestial (which itself has three degrees, see D&C 131), Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is reserved for faithful Mormons (and the highest degree for those married in the temple). The terrestrial is reserved for those who were decent people who rejected the Mormon gospel, and the telestial for those who are wicked. (See D&C 88:21-24)

Heaven is the dwelling place of God, and the destination of those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Mormons believe=Salvation in Mormonism has a dual meaning; one is universal salvation, which is what the sacrifice of Jesus brought all people, good and evil alike, and refers only to resurrection from the dead.

The other salvation is essentially referring to exaltation, which is dependent upon one's worthiness and obedience on Earth.
Mormonism teaches that worthy men can become gods (and women goddesses), equal to God. Less worthy individuals are then assigned to varying degrees of heaven, with the worst of the bunch in eternal "outer darkness


Christians believe=Salvation is the free gift of Jesus Christ to all who believe in him; it is salvation from hell, and salvation to eternal life with God.
The Bible teaches that the eternal destiny of mankind is one of two things--eternal life with God for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ; those are made immortal and perfected (but not gods); and eternal separation from God (hell) for those who do not.


4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mormons believe=The "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" are distinct terms in Mormonism. The "Holy Ghost" is the third personage of the godhead, while the "Holy Spirit" represents the presence of God but not a distinct personage.

References:
Jacob 6:8
D&C 121:26
D&C 130:22

Christians believe=Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are one and the same ("Holy Ghost" most commonly used in the King James version, "Holy Spirit" in more contemporary translations); The Holy Spirit is an entity, not merely a representational term, and yet is equated with God (for example, Acts 5:3-4 uses the Holy Spirit and God interchangeably.) The Holy Spirit is eternal (Hebrews 9:14) and one who teaches (John 14:26).

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Mormons believe= that the Bible has been corrupted, and that vital portions have been lost, deleted, or distorted, and that the LDS scriptures are a restoration of what was lost in the Bible. In Mormonism, the Gospel is referred to as the "restored" gospel, God's "plan of salvation" which involves pre-existing spirit children to be born of earthly parents, pass through life on earth, and be given the opportunity to, via their earthly worthiness, eventually reach exaltation (godhood).

Christians believe=Orthodox Christianity rests upon the authority of the Bible alone as the Word of God. In Christianity, the gospel is the redemption of fallen humanity by the sacrifice and free gift of Jesus Christ, through faith in Him alone, which saves from eternal separation from God (hell) and grants eternal life (being with God forever).

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Mormons believe =The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church currently in existence on the earth. It is the restoration of what had been lost in the first decades of the church.

Christians believe=The "true church" is invisible, and is comprised of all people who have placed their faith in the true Jesus Christ, and is not bound by any denomination or tradition. The denial of an apostate church is based on Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not overcome it" (Matthew 16:18

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I hope this shows the difference in what the Mormons believe and what the Orthodox Christians believe,even tho the Mormons think it is the same, it really isn't.

[Jenos Ridan]

wow, this thread is moving fast. ok......

i wanna say: jenos ridan and beastly are making some fairly ignorant remarks. please try to remember that you do not speak for all of christendom or define christianity. this thread is of course filled with opinions, but try to remember that what you say IS your opinion, and you do not have a ton of authority. look for something to back yourself up.

mr. incrediball and the 1exile, judging from your comments you don't know much about christianity or logic. please stop talking.

also, everyone please relax

optimus, when looking for a description of christian identity, please don't use a dictionary. one of the classic creeds might be a better place, as i suggested before. i think i will do a comparison of your post on the basic LDS beliefs and some of the creeds, and see what we come up with.

beastly and barunt have made some fair points about the differences between LDS folks and more mainstream xtns, but please let's remember, none of us are experts and we shouldn't pretend to be such. also, if your spelling is awful, you lose credibility, at least in my book. cheers

Hey, I can't help it if what I hear from Mormans about Mormanism is contrary to the contradictions they believe in. True, I DO have an opinion. I DO represent one of many demoniations (that is, one of many 'non-demoninational' churches), but not ALL the churches. But, Most churches I've been to other than mine say that Mormans are NOT christian. And from what I'm seeing here, that just solidifes my prior positon on the matter. Not justifies, SOLIDIFIES.

[Dancing Mustard]

i know 3 mormons
every mormon is either a ginger or blond

That sounds pretty buff. Gotta go find me some mormon bitches...

Hang on, are they the boring kind of christian that doesn't believe in sex?

[Skittles!]

I think there are way too many types of Christianity. I've read that name 'Jesus' so much in this thread, I feel like I could just jump off a building.

Debating if one sect of Christianity is more proper than another sect of Christianity will be fruitless unless Christianity is actually real.

People have different beliefs, respect them, don't force yours onto others, just let them live their life.

[The1exile]

mr. incrediball and the 1exile, judging from your comments you don't know much about christianity or logic. please stop talking.

Care to explain why?

[reverend_kyle]

You do realize that both of the creators of South Park were Mormon at one point, right?

You know there are only 2 creators of south park and if they were both mormon at one point and they aren't now that probably means they got excommunicated. because after you're memorized mormon for life unless..

[mr. incrediball]

do you think christians and jews were having this same argument some 2000 years ago?

[b.k. barunt]

Beastly has made some excellent and well documented points about blatant contradictions in Mormon Scripture. Why haven't these been replied to? Is the discussion over?