Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

[Jenos Ridan]

Well, I apologize if you ran into a couple of LDS missionaries who were a little on the forceful or argumentative side. I can promise they are not instructed to act that way by any means.

Let's see, the Kingdoms of Heaven.

1. Celestial Kingdom: this is where God himself dwells with all those individuals who have achieved exaltation by living the gospel to its fullness (fullness of the gospel is a topic for another day though).

2. Terrestrial Kingdom: for those individuals who may have known the fullness of the gospel but perhaps did not live up to it all the way, or those who lived good, honest, well-meaning lives.

3. Telestial Kingdom: for those who did not live a righteous life.

One thing to understand is that even the lowest kingdom (Telestial) is incomprehensible in its glory to what we have on earth today. Yes, I know that will cause even more questions. It is kind of a difficult concept to explain all at once.

I've got to run to bed now, early work shift in the morning, but I'll check back tomorrow when I get the chance to answer more questions if there are some. If not, that's cool too.

Telestial Kingdom? Wouldn't those who failed to live rightously, well, go to hell? If I remember right, that is what happens in scripture. Hence why the whole Mormon 'church' is a big load of dokey.

[Anarchist]

Jenos, I think your faith is polluting the actual debate.

While I dont believe in any one organised religion,

If i do recall correctly Mormonism was supposed to return Gods word back to the world after the devil(through the church) manipulated the message.

Mormonism isnt dedicated to how Jesus died on the cross, but how he atoned for his sins, I know that your sect teaches you that if you join the club that you are saved. Mormonism does not, You must remove the human nature one atonement at a time.

Also many of the things you call gods word, I consider blasphemy. So why dont we leave Judgement to God, as he says even in your version of the bible.

Of all the christian sects mormonism(while flawed at the human level) seems to be less motivated by human goals, and less glorifying of god.
by teaching that Elohim was once like us, and someday those of us who Choose to, will be like him. The religion is also more respectfull of women(again not at the human level) and the overall balance of the universe.

[mr. incrediball]

if christians aren't considered jewish, then mormons shouldn't be considered christians, simple logic, and trying to defy it just proves that religion sucks.

[rallison]

We do believe in Jesus Christ. We do believe that he died on the cross, atoned for our sins, and rose again. If it were not for him there would be no way we could be saved. His death and atonement were certainly not pointless.

I dont know where other people have heard different, but we most certainly do believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

[Jenos Ridan]

Jenos, I think your faith is polluting the actual debate.

While I dont believe in any one organised religion,

If i do recall correctly Mormonism was supposed to return Gods word back to the world after the devil(through the church) manipulated the message.

Mormonism isnt dedicated to how Jesus died on the cross, but how he atoned for his sins, I know that your sect teaches you that if you join the club that you are saved. Mormonism does not, You must remove the human nature one atonement at a time.

Also many of the things you call gods word, I consider blasphemy. So why dont we leave Judgement to God, as he says even in your version of the bible.

Of all the christian sects mormonism(while flawed at the human level) seems to be less motivated by human goals, and less glorifying of god.
by teaching that Elohim was once like us, and someday those of us who Choose to, will be like him. The religion is also more respectfull of women(again not at the human level) and the overall balance of the universe.

JESUS DID NOT HAVE ANY SIN! That is the whole point of His having to die for us! Oh, thanks, now I'm getting a magrine headacke because of your density! Scripture does say not to judge others, but it also says not to suffer false prophets lightly.

As for the rest, all I could make of it was: blah blah blah.....

EDIT: my sect? You mean to say, MOST CHURCHES, BE THEY CATHOLIC, ORTHODOX OR PROTESTANT, right? As for what you consider blasphemy, I'll paraphrase the Doctor "since when did atheism have a concept of blasphemy?"

[Beastly]

I am not Mormon, however I Was raised around mormons, In Idaho, where Mormon religion was the majority religion.

Many of my friends were mormons, and I did go to church with them.

I can tell you for sure, My LDS friends love Jesus... As far as a personal relationship with him, NO ONE can know that, because it is personal.

Mormons are not considered Christian amongst other Christians, because Christians believe that Christ died, so sinners may be redeemed of there sins, and can go to heaven..

Mormons do not believe that... They earn there way to heaven and according to there deeds, they go to a level in heaven.. the best is they become Gods themselves and populate there own planets.

Christian faith is based on believing in your salvation threw the death of Christ, if you don't believe this you are not a Christian. Even in other cultures they believe Jesus was on this earth, but he is only a prophet.

Mormons don't believe in the Trinity, and that Jesus is God in human form.

My views exactly^^

The point is a christian is one who believes in christ as a savior basically.
Whether you believe their religion is true or that they are true christians they are christians because they believe in christ.

No, kyle just believing in Christ does not make you a Christian, according to the mainstream... Its the belief that his death is what saves you... Mormons save themselves, they go to heaven according to there good deeds.
Even the Koran talks about Jesus, but they don't believe he is the Savior.
Mormons don't believe in Redemption threw Christ.
They believe in Redemption of being a good person.
Hence, there are so many great and nice Mormon people.

But believe me, it is all not so perfect as is projected. I knew a Mormon who was a Pot dealer, and there are "mormons" who are called "Jack Mormons" that means they don't go to church.

[Beastly]

We do believe in Jesus Christ. We do believe that he died on the cross, atoned for our sins, and rose again. If it were not for him there would be no way we could be saved. His death and atonement were certainly not pointless.

I dont know where other people have heard different, but we most certainly do believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

If this is true, than why do you have levels in heaven... If you are Saved, you are Saved!!!! There is nobody better than anyone else!!!

and if the levels are True, then it is very unfair for the babies that die, and the handicap that never marry in the temple, or someone who is not attractive and can't get married.

[rallison]

Mormons don't believe in Redemption threw Christ.
They believe in Redemption of being a good person.
Hence, there are so many great and nice Mormon people.

But believe me, it is all not so perfect as is projected. I knew a Mormon who was a Pot dealer, and there are "mormons" who are called "Jack Mormons" that means they don't go to church.

We DO believe in redemption through Christ. We cannot save ourselves, salvation only comes through Christ, there is no other way. We do believe that He wants something back from us as well, such as obedience and good works, but those things are not what saves us. Christ saves us.

As for some bad mormons yeah, they exist. There are many people who are not mormons that i consider better people then some mormons that i know. People can be good people no matter what religion, if any, they are in.

[Beastly]

you failed to reply to what I typed to you RAL

[Jenos Ridan]

We do believe in Jesus Christ. We do believe that he died on the cross, atoned for our sins, and rose again. If it were not for him there would be no way we could be saved. His death and atonement were certainly not pointless.

I dont know where other people have heard different, but we most certainly do believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

If this is true, than why do you have levels in heaven... If you are Saved, you are Saved!!!! There is nobody better than anyone else!!!

and if the levels are True, then it is very unfair for the babies that die, and the handicap that never marry in the temple, or someone who is not attractive and can't get married.

FINALLY! Someone who GETS IT!

[Optimus Prime]

Question: How many of you can list for me even five of the basic beliefs of the LDS Church?

OK - (1). God "is a man like unto one of yourselves" and he became God as all good Mormons will become gods of their own planets if they follow Mormon doctrine ("Times and Seasons", vol. 5, pp.613-614. (2). Joseph Smith stated clearly in Doctrines and Covenants that polygamy was sanctified by God ( ch.132:1-4, 19,20,34,35,38,39,52,60-62). Brigham Young took it a step further, to where you couldn't enter the kingdom of god if you only had one wife. Due to obvious pressure from the secular world, the church changed its beliefs to what we have today. (3). The Bible is an "insufficient guide" to God in and of itself (Do i really need a footnote for this one?). (4).The blood sacrifice of Jesus cannot atone for all sins - some must be atoned for by the shedding of mans blood (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 1, p. 136). (5). Until 1978, Mormon doctrine held that Negroes were an inferior race, and although they could become Mormons, they could never become Mormon priests ("Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477). Evidently God changed His mind in 1978, in order to form a more politically correct church.

Alright.....now try again actually listing some of the basic beliefs, not just the ones that everyone always thinks we are freaks for because they haven't taken the time to understand it.

[Optimus Prime]

Like, perhaps these ones which we refer to in the LDS Church as our Articles of Faith. They were written down by Joseph Smith to answer what the most basic tenets of our faith are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[rallison]

didnt see your other post till just now.

Levels in Heaven.

First off, about babies who die, mentally challanged, etc. We believe that people can only sin when they know the difference between right and wrong, which we call being accountable. the "age of accountability" is of course different for each person, but the church puts that age at 8 years old. That is when people have the first opportunity to be baptized into the church. For those who are mentally challenged, this may never happen. Some people are just unable to understand the differences. Babies who die have no sin, so they wont go to hell or anything like that.

For someone who is too unattractive to get married or other situations like that, God understands. He wouldn't want anyone getting married just for the sake of being married. marriage is about loving each other. it's not just some checkbox on the list of how to get to heaven. my personal belief is that god would rather see someone single and happy then married and miserable.

As for noone being better then anyone else, i respectfully disagree. mother theresa was a better person then i'll ever be. I see no reason why someone should not be blessed for the good they do in this life.

[The1exile]

EDIT: my sect? You mean to say, MOST CHURCHES, BE THEY CATHOLIC, ORTHODOX OR PROTESTANT, right? As for what you consider blasphemy, I'll paraphrase the Doctor "since when did atheism have a concept of blasphemy?"

So the beliefs of xianity go with what the majority believes? And what if, to adopt the religious fervour stance for a moment,. that majority is controlled by Satan? Certainly the indiscretions of the medival church prove that just because soemthing is the institutional standard doesn't mean it's morally right.

[Beastly]

didnt see your other post till just now.

Levels in Heaven.

First off, about babies who die, mentally challanged, etc. We believe that people can only sin when they know the difference between right and wrong, which we call being accountable. the "age of accountability" is of course different for each person, but the church puts that age at 8 years old. That is when people have the first opportunity to be baptized into the church. For those who are mentally challenged, this may never happen. Some people are just unable to understand the differences. Babies who die have no sin, so they wont go to hell or anything like that.

For someone who is too unattractive to get married or other situations like that, God understands. He wouldn't want anyone getting married just for the sake of being married. marriage is about loving each other. it's not just some checkbox on the list of how to get to heaven. my personal belief is that god would rather see someone single and happy then married and miserable.

As for noone being better then anyone else, i respectfully disagree. mother theresa was a better person then i'll ever be. I see no reason why someone should not be blessed for the good they do in this life.

The point I was making is... YOu cannot become a God if you are not married in the Temple... Not everyone is able to do this.
you go to the lower level of heaven if you are not Married in the Temple. even if you are married out of the temple you cannot attain God hood.

And according to how good you are, you recieve a better level in heaven. No Sin is greater than another!

[rallison]

The point I was making is... YOu cannot become a God if you are not married in the Temple... Not everyone is able to do this.
you go to the lower level of heaven if you are not Married in the Temple. even if you are married out of the temple you cannot attain God hood.

And according to how good you are, you recieve a better level in heaven. No Sin is greater than another!

I'm interested to know where you heard that. Like I said before, God judges, and He understands each person's individual situation. He decides in the end. As for some sins being worse, yeah some are. Killing someone is worse then a lie.

[Optimus Prime]

The point I was making is... YOu cannot become a God if you are not married in the Temple... Not everyone is able to do this.
you go to the lower level of heaven if you are not Married in the Temple. even if you are married out of the temple you cannot attain God hood.

And according to how good you are, you recieve a better level in heaven. No Sin is greater than another!

Actually....anybody who wants has the ability to marry in the temple, but in order for that to happen, yes, they would have to believe in the gospel as we do. If they want to live that gospel, then by all means they have every chance possible.

Secondly, I don't understand the "No sin is greater than another" line. That is not quite true, certain sins carry a heavier weight, but getting to a certain level of heaven has to do with how many sins you commit and whether or not you repent of them, not which ones they were.

[Beastly]

look it up in the bible that you say you believe in...

Sin is Sin...

Christ died for all[ sin and sinners...

and are you saying you Can attain God hood if you are not married in the Temple?
hmmmm... you better go talk to your bishop. Because we both know that you do not get to be sealed in heaven with your mate, if you are not sealed in the Temple.

[Optimus Prime]

Sounds like perhaps you are a dis-enchanted former member, Beastly.

I did not say that you can get into heaven without being married in the temple. What I did say was that everyone has the opportunity to go to the temple if they make certain choices. You have to be able to go before you can get married there.

[Optimus Prime]

As far as sin goes, are you telling me that murdering someone is the same as telling a small lie? If you are then I'm real confused. No one should SIN at all if they can help it, problem with that is that nobody is perfect and everyone will sin over and over during the course of their lives.

[Optimus Prime]

C'mon folks, at least you can be smart enough to realize that almost all of the topics brought up:

Kingdoms of Heaven...Plural Marriage...Etc,

Are not the foundation of teachings in the LDS Church. What do you have to say about the fact that we believe in exercising faith, or repenting of sins, or being baptized, or serving our fellow man, having strong families, reading the scriptures.

It never ceases to amaze me that people of other faiths can find it so easy to tie into the obscure parts of the LDS faith without even trying to understand the basics first. Honestly, if you take the time to figure out the basics first, you might realize that there really isn't that much different from us and everyone else until you get into the deeper end of the pool.

Besides, once you get into that deeper end of the pool none of you are ever going to accept even the remote possibility that I'm telling you something that is true. If you want to know about the LDS Church the first thing you need to do is realize that 99.99% of everything said about us from another faith's pulpit is probably skewed in some way, and that almost every single book you find in the "cult" section of a religious bookstore doesn't have a clue. Every single one of them clips quotes to make them fit what they want to say we believe.

Don't go to a Ford dealer to fix your BMW, folks. Just try and remember that.

[Beastly]

Sounds like perhaps you are a dis-enchanted former member, Beastly.

I did not say that you can get into heaven without being married in the temple. What I did say was that everyone has the opportunity to go to the temple if they make certain choices. You have to be able to go before you can get married there.

ok so you are agreeing with me?

If you are not sealed in the Temple you cannot attain God hood in the best level of Heaven. quit dancing around it.... the point is, for babies and others who may not be able to marry in the temple, this is not Just. God is a Just god, and further more, There is only one God, he is infinite and no other before for him or after him.

look at your 10 commandments. Look at what satan told Eve, and look at why Lucifer was cast out of Heaven. and I can Guarantee that Moses, and John the baptist and all the followers in Christ time were Never married in No Mormon Temple. and none of the Jewish or other Religions.

IF YOU ARE NOT SEALED OR MARRIED IN THE TEMPLE YOU DO NOT BECOME A GOD!!

Mother Teresa was not married in a Temple? does she get to go to the best level in heaven... Jesus was not Sealed in a Mormon Temple.. Is he in the highest level in heaven.. the celestrial?

[Optimus Prime]

You cannot attain a level of Godhood in our faith without being sealed in the temple. If you want to talk about just for those babies and things, look at rallison's post. He is plenty just in those circumstances.

As far as Moses and John the Baptist go, you apparently don't understand that us "Mormons", which by the way, is nothing more than a nickname that persecuters came up with, believe that the gospel we have is the exact same gospel that Moses and John the Baptist and everyone else in between had.

It comes down in the nitty-gritty as to whether or not you are willing to accept that the heavens are not sealed, and that prophets still walk the earth in these days.

Quite frankly, it does offend me to a certain degree that you are putting on the air of knowing exactly what you are talking about in regards to the LDS Church, but in reality, you have chosen what you have a problem with and instead of figuring out the facts you are scared.

If you did know what you were talking about you would know that what you just said about Moses and everything else is a complete load of crap. Stop pretending to know so much when you haven't taken the time to get your facts straight.

[rallison]

I think maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

Of course you dont have to be married in the mormon temple while you were here on earth to get to the highest degree of heaven. Like you pointed out, that is impossible for all the billions and billions of people who lived on the earth when there was no temple. It would be rediculous if none of them, even though they were good people, could go to heaven. God is a just god, like you said, and understands everyone's individual situation.

That brings up another ton of questions about temple work, and how people who died without the opportunity to be married in the temple can get that chance through us and such, but I think Optimus said it very well. We do believe in Christ, and at the basics there is not a lot different between us and other religions. Christ died for everyone to save everyone from our sins. Thats the most important thing.


Again, I dont think anyone wants this to degrade into name calling or anything like that, I just want to have the chance to explain what we believe. I'm not trying to convert anyone here and convince them that I have the only way to heaven or anything. I just want to talk about what we and other people believe.

[edit] I just thought i should add that i'm only interested in telling other people if they want to listen. I joined this site to play games and have fun, not to talk about my religion all the time So if people are intrested, i'll welcome the opportunity to talk about it, but I never want to force it on anyone. If you ever feel like i do that, just tell me to shut my pie hole. [/edit]

[Dancing Mustard]

I dont think anyone wants this to degrade into name calling or anything like that, I just want to have the chance to explain what we believe.

I consider your mum to be a christian