Conquer Club

Post Any Evidence For God Here

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Viceroy wrote:Birds simply can not evolve into horse because the condition over millions of years, are just so???


Sigh. No matter how determined I am to not get involved in these silly discussions, this argument from the creationists always sticks in my craw. This right here is the major failure in communication between the two parties. It doesn't work that way and you can't use this as an argument no matter how much you desire it so.

Image

At what point does yellow become green? Green to blue? So on and so forth. This is why you won't find the "transitional specimen" creationists are always trying to use against evolution (although there are several that demonstrate early branching). It is not a tiered process.

To use your example, let's say a sizable portion of a species of birds (not too small to go extinct but not too large to inhibit genetic drift and heritable mutations) is isolated due to some event. The population won't regress to some earlier form and then evolve to a horse because the conditions favor the horse. That's common sense. I can think of very few events where the benefits of wings would be disadvantageous. The birds will likely forever remain bird-like as birds are highly evolved and well adapted to many conditions. Look at penguins: flightless, but they retain feathers and wings. The wing muscles of birds are extremely powerful for their frames and size, and they function well under water as flippers. But imagine if one penguin, through a mutation which could be passed to offspring, developed even the slightest ability for gas exchange from water to epithelial surfaces of the lungs. This bird and its offspring would no longer be what we classify as "birds" since birds by one of our definitions must breathe air.

Why is it so hard to understand that something as complicated as the DNA Code Sequence of Life could not have occurred by accident. I give you that natural selection is a process by which species mutate and adapt (up to a certain limit) for the purpose of survival. But that does not explain the origin of Life. Nor does it explain that from single cell organism arose the many variations of life.


Viruses aren't alive and many have DNA, single or double strands. I'm willing to bet I know quite a bit more about DNA and its processes than you, and to chalk it up to an intelligent designer because it's complicated is lazy. The formation of DNA or RNA and its part in protein syntheses is just chemistry, nothing more, nothing less. There's nothing magical about it. I'm also curious as to your so-called "limit?" True, mutations are far more likely to have little effect or be deleterious than they are of conferring some benefit, but to operate under the assumption that there's some limit to the deviation is unfounded. Some sequences are more essential to the functioning of organisms and are less likely to mutate: those which get these mutations die quickly. Other sequences are peripheral and not so harmful: hair and eye colors, for example.

-TG
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class TA1LGUNN3R
 
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:52 am
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:27 pm

The Limit is that Species of animals do not evolve into other species of animals. That is the limit of mutations and natural selection.

It is within the design of DNA that slight Mutations can and do occur to aid in the survival of Life but the "Origin of Species" suggest that all life on the planet evolve from lower life forms over millions of Years. This is simply not the case due to extremely large gaps in the fossil records which suggest more than anything else sudden and possibly mass extinctions of many species on a regular basis as well as the sudden appearance of new life where they previously did not exist, every few million years. This sounds like sudden creation to me in the order of every few millions of years. Darwin knew this and in his own writings quoted...

Darwin wrote:"Why, "if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why do we not find them imbedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?"... Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory."
-The Origin of Species, 1859, Masterpieces of Science edition, pp. 136-137)


For the record; Darwin died doubting his own Theory of Evolution.
Image
An Unproven Hypothesis; The Rise of Ignorance.
Ultimate Proof of Creation. Click the show tab below.
show
User avatar
Major Viceroy63
 
Posts: 1117
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:34 pm
Location: A little back water, hill billy hick place called Earth.

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:58 pm

crispybits wrote:Can any theist please explain to me the difference between "Faith" and "Opinion"


Faith: firm or unquestioning belief in something for which there is no proof

Opinion:
  • belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
  • a belief or view based on interpretation of observed facts and experience

Faith isn't really drilled down in Merriam-Webster but one could argue that faith is also based on revelation, that is on the testimony of another. Opinion, as defined by Merriam-Webster is based on "observed facts and experience." So we can logically say ...

Faith is based on a third person; opinion comes from the person himself.
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:19 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:This is simply not the case due to extremely large gaps in the fossil records which suggest more than anything else sudden and possibly mass extinctions of many species on a regular basis as well as the sudden appearance of new life where they previously did not exist, every few million years. This sounds like sudden creation to me in the order of every few millions of years.


I do not think this evidence is proof of your argument. In the first place we know a lot more about the driver of species (DNA) that Darwin did. We know that DNA is effectively binary. It turns things on and turns things off. So there often isn't a gradual change but a distinctive change. Let's bring this discussion down to the cellar and talk about boobys. There are those with red feet and those with blue feet. There are none with purple feet.

Mass extinctions are a significant driving force in evolution. It allows a species that may not have been optimal to survive because it is the only one left. Climate changes are the second significant driving force in evolution. The dinosaurs actually died from the later (the asteroid was a coup de grace to an already declining population, due to a gradual decrease in O2 concentrations in the air over the course of centuries). But it is also clear that we have been the victim of a lot of cosmic disasters over the earth's history; the universe isn't exactly a nice place to be.

This will easily show up in the fossil records. One might find it difficult to find a creature that is outnumbered by other creatures, but when it is all alone and has no natural opposition to its procreation, its appearance is clear and obvious.

By the way, you do know that Romans never existed; you can't find them in the fossil records. ;)

(It's true, with the exception of places like Pompey, where people were burried under ash, Romans generally cremated their dead.)
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:46 pm

tzor wrote:
crispybits wrote:Can any theist please explain to me the difference between "Faith" and "Opinion"


Faith: firm or unquestioning belief in something for which there is no proof

Opinion:
  • belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
  • a belief or view based on interpretation of observed facts and experience

Faith isn't really drilled down in Merriam-Webster but one could argue that faith is also based on revelation, that is on the testimony of another. Opinion, as defined by Merriam-Webster is based on "observed facts and experience." So we can logically say ...

Faith is based on a third person; opinion comes from the person himself.


See I don't see how that's not the exact opposite.

Surely faith is fully internal, given that it is based on no external evidence, and opinion is the thing that is based on outside observation?
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:14 pm

crispybits wrote:
tzor wrote:
crispybits wrote:Can any theist please explain to me the difference between "Faith" and "Opinion"


Faith: firm or unquestioning belief in something for which there is no proof

Opinion:
  • belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
  • a belief or view based on interpretation of observed facts and experience

Faith isn't really drilled down in Merriam-Webster but one could argue that faith is also based on revelation, that is on the testimony of another. Opinion, as defined by Merriam-Webster is based on "observed facts and experience." So we can logically say ...

Faith is based on a third person; opinion comes from the person himself.


See I don't see how that's not the exact opposite.

Surely faith is fully internal, given that it is based on no external evidence, and opinion is the thing that is based on outside observation?


I prefer the OED to MW.

Using the OED, "Faith" can be defined as "Confidence, reliance, trust (in the ability, goodness, etc., of a person; in the efficacy or worth of a thing; or in the truth of a statement or doctrine). Belief proceeding from reliance on testimony or authority. That which is or should be believed."

Opinion can be defined as "As a count noun: a view held about a particular issue; a judgement formed or a conclusion reached; a belief; a religious or political conviction. More generally: what or how one thinks about something; judgement or belief. Thought of what is likely to be the case, knowledge; expectation based on knowledge or belief."

I highlighted interesting components. It looks like it comes down to the authority of where or how the information is obtained...and then what is done with that information after it is obtained.


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class AndyDufresne
 
Posts: 24935
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:39 pm

OK, so where I'm trying to get with this (and it leads off from my exchange with player 1 page back about religious relativism) is that for many modern christians (and I suspect muslims and other religions too) there are matters of faith, and then there are matters of conscience, or opinion.

For example while every christian (I think) would agree that Jesus' death and ressurection providing the absolution for our sins is set in stone as an item of faith common to all, there are also many issues where I could find multiple different christian groups who all have differing opinions on the interpretation of biblical texts and moral absolutes.

Obviously muslims would disagree, and the things that are matters of faith for christians, such as Jesus' status as the messiah, are matters of opinion (from the muslim perspective) as Jesus was simply a prophet.

What I'm trying to get towards here is not a division of the different faiths, but I am wondering if across all faiths, the Abrahamic ones and the Oriental ones and indeed the extinct Roman, Greek and Norse ones (to name just a few), to the Mayan gods and the Native American Indian spiritual system, is there any commonality that can bring them all together in agreement.

If you're going to look for real evidence for God, then shouldn't you try to start from a place where, however miniscule and insignificant it may seem, everyone everywhere agrees on some aspect or characteristic of the divine?
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:52 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:If we put things into context? Then lets leave Alexander out of this. Why go off into another tangent.

The point is that creation was made out of Nothing because there was nothing before creation. That Adam was made from the dust and then Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs is besides the point.

How did they know that the creation was basically made from nothing? That is the point!

It seems to me that this had to have been revealed knowledge.


Just to come back to this point too, becuase a much more elegant (imo) way of phrasing my objection to it came to mind as I was typing my last post.

Without the universe there is no time. Without the universe there is no space. Without the universe there is no matter or energy. Without the universe there are no "natural laws" like gravitational attraction or thermodynamics.(I'm using "without" instead of "before" or "outside" because I believe it's a bit more accurate in as much as our linguistics allow)

So why assume that without the universe there is still causality? If you accept that time and space and everything else came from nothing, that nothing existed and then the universe existed, then causality does not need to extend to the cause of the universe, because the very first natural event, the universe actually beginning to exist, needs no cause. Causality does not exist to act until the universe already exists, and there is no need for any further "prime causer" beyond "it just is"
Last edited by crispybits on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:55 pm

crispybits wrote:Without the universe there is no time. Without the universe there is no space. Without the universe there is no matter or energy. Without the universe there are no "natural laws" like gravitational attraction of thermodynamics.(I'm using "without" instead of "before" or "outside" because I believe it's a bit more accurate in as much as our linguistics allow)

So why assume that without the universe there is still causality? If you accept that time and space and everything else came from nothing, that nothing existed and then the universe existed, then causality does not need to extend to the cause of the universe, because the very first natural event, the universe actually beginning to exist, needs no cause. Causality does not exist to act until the universe already exists, and there is no need for any further "prime causer" beyond "it just is"


There is no evidence to suggest that before our universe, there was nothing.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:58 pm

That's what I mean though Mets - the religious are very quick to say that God created everything from nothing, but if you assume there is nothing before the "let there be light" then you actually do away with the need for a cause, and the argument eats it's own tail and becomes a paradox doesn't it?

Unless you then claim that God is constrained by causality, which is a pretty big problem for an omnipotent being.

(Using "you" in a generic sense there rather than accusing you personally of any belief btw)
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:06 pm

crispybits wrote:That's what I mean though Mets - the religious are very quick to say that God created everything from nothing, but if you assume there is nothing before the "let there be light" then you actually do away with the need for a cause, and the argument eats it's own tail and becomes a paradox doesn't it?


I don't see how that works. If you assume there is nothing, then there's really no way to judge one way or the other whether you require a "creator" for something to start existing. It could be that causality applies even to the "nothing" state, or it could be that it does not. Causality is a much different type of construction than than, say, the existence of matter. By construction, there's no way to know.

Nevertheless, my point was to head that argument off at the pass; since there is no particular evidence that before the universe, there was nothing, I see no reason to assume it.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:39 pm

crispybits wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:If we put things into context? Then lets leave Alexander out of this. Why go off into another tangent.

The point is that creation was made out of Nothing because there was nothing before creation. That Adam was made from the dust and then Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs is besides the point.

How did they know that the creation was basically made from nothing? That is the point!

It seems to me that this had to have been revealed knowledge.


Just to come back to this point too, becuase a much more elegant (imo) way of phrasing my objection to it came to mind as I was typing my last post.

Without the universe there is no time. Without the universe there is no space. Without the universe there is no matter or energy. Without the universe there are no "natural laws" like gravitational attraction or thermodynamics.(I'm using "without" instead of "before" or "outside" because I believe it's a bit more accurate in as much as our linguistics allow)

So why assume that without the universe there is still causality? If you accept that time and space and everything else came from nothing, that nothing existed and then the universe existed, then causality does not need to extend to the cause of the universe, because the very first natural event, the universe actually beginning to exist, needs no cause. Causality does not exist to act until the universe already exists, and there is no need for any further "prime causer" beyond "it just is"


If we say that the Universe "already exists," then there was something to create the cause for the "Big Bang." But if by nothing we mean nothing at all then there is no cause or causality for the Universe. Except of course for a Creator God who exist outside of everything and consist of nothing except spirit/thought. Pure mind/thought, no substance. Substance as we know it anyway.

It was Einstein who equated that all things in the Universe as being related to each other and that one can not be without the other. So then Space, time and matter all need each other in order to be. To exist. That everything is relative. Including what appears to us as empty space.

Today other scientist are building on that in ways that Einstein did not imagine at the time. For example scientist now believe that empty space is not empty at all but filled up with things that we can't see and all kinds of activities. When I use the words, "nothing existed," I mean nothing at all!

I don't usually like documentaries that deal with theories and hypothesis like dinosaur documentaries for example because the language is sometimes like, "It is 'believed' that this or that and so and so..." but this one makes a lot of sense.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD5tBIqJU4U
Image
An Unproven Hypothesis; The Rise of Ignorance.
Ultimate Proof of Creation. Click the show tab below.
show
User avatar
Major Viceroy63
 
Posts: 1117
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:34 pm
Location: A little back water, hill billy hick place called Earth.

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:01 am

Viceroy63 wrote:If we say that the Universe "already exists," then there was something to create the cause for the "Big Bang." But if by nothing we mean nothing at all then there is no cause or causality for the Universe. Except of course for a Creator God who exist outside of everything and consist of nothing except spirit/thought. Pure mind/thought, no substance. Substance as we know it anyway.

It was Einstein who equated that all things in the Universe as being related to each other and that one can not be without the other. So then Space, time and matter all need each other in order to be. To exist. That everything is relative. Including what appears to us as empty space.

Today other scientist are building on that in ways that Einstein did not imagine at the time. For example scientist now believe that empty space is not empty at all but filled up with things that we can't see and all kinds of activities. When I use the words, "nothing existed," I mean nothing at all!

I don't usually like documentaries that deal with theories and hypothesis like dinosaur documentaries for example because the language is sometimes like, "It is 'believed' that this or that and so and so..." but this one makes a lot of sense.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD5tBIqJU4U


But if there is no universe there is no causality rule. Causality is a natural law the same as "energy cannot be created or destroyed" or "objects with mass exert a weak attraction force on each other" or any other. So without the universe already established, there is no causality, and therefore no need for a cause (i.e. God) to make it all start. It could literally just happen without a cause at all and it wouldn't be breaking any rule because the rule isn't there to break.

You know those old old toys with a board with a load of pegs in and you drop a marble in at the top and it bounces left and right off the pegs and then falls into a slot at the bottom to score points (kinda like prototype pinball tables without the flippers). Imagine one of them but thousands of miles wide and high with millions of pegs on it. Every peg is a causality event, and could be described by a mathematical equation to say "left or right" as the marble bounces down through them. The rules of the board (with a bit of a chance element) determine where the marble ends up, and are equivalent to the rules of the universe (with the chance being quantum). (I know this is a simplistic analogy but bear with me)

Do the rules of the board tell you anything about where the marble comes from before it hits the first peg? No, they just tell you that when a marble hits peg X then Ex happens, and when it hits peg Y then Ey happens. Do the rules of the board tell you anything about who made the board, why they made the board, what they are like, etc? It's the same with the rules of this universe, the rules of this universe (like causality) can't tell us where the universe came from because they didn't apply before the universe already existed. They can't tell us anything about any possible creator, because they don't apply to that creator (if indeed it exists, which cannot be proven)

The only way to get around that is by saying that causality is an extra-universal rule, that is it applies on a level higher than the universe. But then the only thing out there (seeing as God created everything from nothing) is God himself. So you're binding God with causality, which then leads to the question "what created God?" (he's bound by causality remember, he needs a cause now) and also makes his omnipotence not unlimited and therefore impossible by definition.
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:13 am

crispybits wrote:But if there is no universe there is no causality rule. Causality is a natural law the same as "energy cannot be created or destroyed" or "objects with mass exert a weak attraction force on each other" or any other. So without the universe already established, there is no causality, and therefore no need for a cause (i.e. God) to make it all start. It could literally just happen without a cause at all and it wouldn't be breaking any rule because the rule isn't there to break.


How could you possibly know any of this?

The only way to get around that is by saying that causality is an extra-universal rule, that is it applies on a level higher than the universe. But then the only thing out there (seeing as God created everything from nothing) is God himself.


There are plenty of ways to "get around this." God is not necessarily the only thing that is "extra-universal". In the many-universe hypothesis, for example, our universe is just a small player in a much larger cosmic game. God doesn't need to be what's outside of our universe, and there's no reason causality would necessarily not apply to the arena in which the universes are contained.

So you're binding God with causality, which then leads to the question "what created God?" (he's bound by causality remember, he needs a cause now) and also makes his omnipotence not unlimited and therefore impossible by definition.


If God is infinite (in time), he doesn't require a cause, even if he is somehow "bound" by causality (whatever that means).
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby MeDeFe on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:31 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
crispybits wrote:But if there is no universe there is no causality rule. Causality is a natural law the same as "energy cannot be created or destroyed" or "objects with mass exert a weak attraction force on each other" or any other. So without the universe already established, there is no causality, and therefore no need for a cause (i.e. God) to make it all start. It could literally just happen without a cause at all and it wouldn't be breaking any rule because the rule isn't there to break.

How could you possibly know any of this?

Because logic. Crispybits' argument is entirely sound

The only way to get around that is by saying that causality is an extra-universal rule, that is it applies on a level higher than the universe. But then the only thing out there (seeing as God created everything from nothing) is God himself.

There are plenty of ways to "get around this." God is not necessarily the only thing that is "extra-universal". In the many-universe hypothesis, for example, our universe is just a small player in a much larger cosmic game. God doesn't need to be what's outside of our universe, and there's no reason causality would necessarily not apply to the arena in which the universes are contained.

But then you throw out the premise of "before the universe there was nothing". And at that point you've entirely left all religious conceptions about which we're arguing behind.

So you're binding God with causality, which then leads to the question "what created God?" (he's bound by causality remember, he needs a cause now) and also makes his omnipotence not unlimited and therefore impossible by definition.

If God is infinite (in time), he doesn't require a cause, even if he is somehow "bound" by causality (whatever that means).
The universe is infinite in time.
I think you can see where this is going.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 7831
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:35 am

MeDeFe wrote:Because logic. Crispybits' argument is entirely sound


It's entirely speculative. The premise of his argument is based on something that cannot be proved. There is no way to know what happened before our universe (with present technology), therefore to assert that causality did or did not apply before the universe existed is entirely meaningless.

But then you throw out the premise of "before the universe there was nothing". And at that point you've entirely left all religious conceptions about which we're arguing behind.


Sure, obviously I am not defending the Judeo-Christian religious conception. I'm just pointing out that crispybits' argument is equally bad if it is designed to prove anything about what happened prior to the existence of our universe.

The universe is infinite in time.
I think you can see where this is going.


...No, I don't. The universe has not existed (at least, for a specific meaning of "to exist") for an infinitely long time. We have scientific evidence of this. This is not debated by either scientists or religious folk.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:23 pm

This line of thinking is not designed to prove anything - i am countering the "something came from nothing, therefore god" argument put forward by someone else earlier. Im on my phone atm - will give more detail later if necessary
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:47 pm

crispybits wrote:This line of thinking is not designed to prove anything - i am countering the "something came from nothing, therefore god" argument put forward by someone else earlier. Im on my phone atm - will give more detail later if necessary


Ok. Like I said, I just think it's cleaner to point out the absurdity of the speculation to begin with.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby MeDeFe on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:44 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Because logic. Crispybits' argument is entirely sound

It's entirely speculative. The premise of his argument is based on something that cannot be proved. There is no way to know what happened before our universe (with present technology), therefore to assert that causality did or did not apply before the universe existed is entirely meaningless.

You're missing the point of the thought experiment, I see.

Namely...
But then you throw out the premise of "before the universe there was nothing". And at that point you've entirely left all religious conceptions about which we're arguing behind.

Sure, obviously I am not defending the Judeo-Christian religious conception. I'm just pointing out that crispybits' argument is equally bad if it is designed to prove anything about what happened prior to the existence of our universe.

...to accept the premises of the Judeo-Christian religious conception and demonstrating that either their conclusions are flat out wrong, or that there are other equally valid conclusions. It was never intended to prove anything about the universe in general, only about some reasoning that some religious folks have engaged in.


The universe is infinite in time.
I think you can see where this is going.

...No, I don't. The universe has not existed (at least, for a specific meaning of "to exist") for an infinitely long time. We have scientific evidence of this. This is not debated by either scientists or religious folk.

I thought you just went on about how time and space are related and you can't have one without the other. So... No universe, no space. No space, not time. Therefore, no universe, no time. Ergo, the universe is infinite in time from when both of them began to exist.
That we're currently able to tell approximately how long ago that was is beside the point.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 7831
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:23 pm

I remember reading an article in Sci Am recently that time could exist independent of the universe, and that they formulated a thought experiment for keeping time after the end of the universe.

Maybe I'll see if I can find the article, but don't hold me to it. I also could be misremembering the article.


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class AndyDufresne
 
Posts: 24935
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:54 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
crispybits wrote:This line of thinking is not designed to prove anything - i am countering the "something came from nothing, therefore god" argument put forward by someone else earlier. Im on my phone atm - will give more detail later if necessary


Ok. Like I said, I just think it's cleaner to point out the absurdity of the speculation to begin with.


I generally find if you're trying to make someone understand something you start from a point as close to their established view as possible and work outwards, rather than stand way out at your finishing point and shout across the chasm.

That's not to say I think I will change minds about matters of faith, but I hope I might (maybe, just maybe) make people think a bit and at least refine their arguments and stop making silly statements to begin with (a long shot I know but it's also fun to just debate it in the meantime)
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:55 pm

MeDeFe wrote:...to accept the premises of the Judeo-Christian religious conception and demonstrating that either their conclusions are flat out wrong, or that there are other equally valid conclusions. It was never intended to prove anything about the universe in general, only about some reasoning that some religious folks have engaged in.


Ok, but the thought experiment fails, because it relies on an assumption that there is no evidence for (namely "if there is no universe there is no causality rule.").


I thought you just went on about how time and space are related and you can't have one without the other.


I didn't say any of that, it was someone else. Although, it is true that in our universe space and time are intimately related.

So... No universe, no space. No space, not time. Therefore, no universe, no time. Ergo, the universe is infinite in time from when both of them began to exist.
That we're currently able to tell approximately how long ago that was is beside the point.


I don't even understand what it means to say "infinite in time from when it began to exist." Stephen Hawking has argued for a conception of time that allows it to be infinite in the sense that it has no boundary, but I don't think that's what you're saying. At any rate, perhaps this is based on your false notion (the same one that crispybits has) that space and time can't exist outside of our universe. As I said, there's no evidence for that claim.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:02 pm

But we're not arguing from evidence for this, we're starting from the claim "before the universe there was nothing, and God turned that nothing into something"

I don't see why causality gets special treatment in that premise, it's just another characteristic of our universe if the first statement is true (which I don't believe, but I'm assuming it is for the sake of proving it un-necessary.)

If you persist with the claim about the multiverse or extraverse or whatever you want to call it (which I do believe) beyond our universe, then the theist will just shift the creator level outwards one too and say "who made the multiverse" ad this thought experiment shifts with that without any requirement for evidence.
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:19 pm

crispybits wrote:But we're not arguing from evidence for this, we're starting from the claim "before the universe there was nothing, and God turned that nothing into something"

I don't see why causality gets special treatment in that premise, it's just another characteristic of our universe if the first statement is true (which I don't believe, but I'm assuming it is for the sake of proving it un-necessary.)


Like I said, I consider causality to be a much different construction than matter and energy. When people generally say "before the universe, there was nothing" I think they're generally talking about matter that we're used to interact with. They can't mean nothing because there's still God, and that doesn't mean the rules (e.g. the laws of physics) didn't apply before the universe; it just meant that there was nothing existing to obey the rules.

If you persist with the claim about the multiverse or extraverse or whatever you want to call it (which I do believe) beyond our universe, then the theist will just shift the creator level outwards one too and say "who made the multiverse" ad this thought experiment shifts with that without any requirement for evidence.


Not necessarily. This whole argument stems from the fact that we now have evidence for the claim that the universe was "created" (again, this has a very specific meaning for scientists that is at odds with what the religious folk think -- the most we can really say is that at some finite time in the past, the universe was really hot and really dense, and then rapidly started to expand outward) at a finite time in the past, whereas in the past it was thought that the universe might be infinite. An infinite universe does not need a "creator" or "cause." So if the multiverse is itself infinite in both time and space, then we obviate the need for a creator or cause.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:34 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Like I said, I consider causality to be a much different construction than matter and energy. When people generally say "before the universe, there was nothing" I think they're generally talking about matter that we're used to interact with. They can't mean nothing because there's still God, and that doesn't mean the rules (e.g. the laws of physics) didn't apply before the universe; it just meant that there was nothing existing to obey the rules.


But if (in the thought experiment, not reality) there is nothing except God, then for any of the laws of our universe to already exist would limit him and make his omnipotence impossible. If they are already there then he can only create universes that follow them, rather than any kind of universe he likes.

Or, he creates the rules, then creates the universe, but essentially you're just adding another step to the creation before the "let there be light" bit, and there is still a point when there is only God without even the rules. And that's where you have the point without causality again, and you remove the need for God, or anything else, to be a prime cause.

Metsfanmax wrote:Not necessarily. This whole argument stems from the fact that we now have evidence for the claim that the universe was "created" (again, this has a very specific meaning for scientists that is at odds with what the religious folk think -- the most we can really say is that at some finite time in the past, the universe was really hot and really dense, and then rapidly started to expand outward) at a finite time in the past, whereas in the past it was thought that the universe might be infinite. An infinite universe does not need a "creator" or "cause." So if the multiverse is itself infinite in both time and space, then we obviate the need for a creator or cause.


I agree with this stuff, like I've said I'm doing a thought experiment based on the theist premise that there was nothing, and God made it into something. I'm not presenting a metaphysical argument about the reality of multiverses or infinite time. You're constantly just dragging it off topic by failing to realise this point.
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users