Rolegift Mafia 2 Endgame: Give 'til it Hurts

[Yomiel]

It's Mafia. People lie. To say I'm the only one who would do so is folly.

[spiesr]

Okay, I just had an idea for a potential solution to the issue of telling the presumed two magic 8 ball cop gifts apart in future days. It requires the cooperation of the gifters, but doesn't require them to come forward.
We take the list of players and split it into two sections like so:
Group A:
Campin_Killer
spiesr
shieldgenerator7
pancakemix
everywhere116
TA1LGUNN3R
soundman
Hensow

Group B:
Djfireside
Rodion
thechuck51
Yomiel
pmchugh
jak111
LSU Tiger Josh
jonty125

The person who gifted pancakemix must from here on gift only those in Group A. The person who gifted Yomiel must gift Group B. As such, we can tell by who gets the gift if it came from the A or B gifter. With the giftmagnet source dead all gift should be going to the intended recipient in future nights. This requires the gifters of the cop items to know who they are. The B gifter should already know this, as Yomiel only got one gift. There are two candidates for the A gifter, so for now they will both need to gift within Group A.

It's Mafia. People lie. To say I'm the only one who would do so is folly.

Most player's avoid lying as town except when absolutely necessary. Because the town has a philosophy of Lynch all Liars. Everyone should realize that lying about a gift/action like that in this game will eventually get them lynched.

[Yomiel]

It's not so easy to realize a person is lying. If everyone says they are Town, some people have to be lying, but you can't easily figure out who just like that.

As for your plan, it's pointless. The Mafia is bound to interfere. We'll just have to count on the giver of the gift keeping it to themselves if they see it's incorrect.

in the meantime, what about lynching LSU?

[Rodion]

Assume we get all players to adhere to the plan.

If we see 2 players from Group A (or B) claiming cop gifts, we know 1 of the cop-gifters is scum.
It could fail miserably if both of them are scum, as they could swap gifts without anyone realizing at first. Odds of that, however, are extremely low. And even if they do that and accomplish an extra mislynch, we should then be able to get both of them outed with a massclaim.
In all other scenarios, plan works like a charm, I believe.

I like the plan if Shield claims gifts AND none of them are cops.
If Shield claims a cop, then I think we should start thinking Dethys and assuming one of them most likely went to Saf/Aage. We'd need to possibly divide the list into 4 groups of 4.
If Shield claims 0 gifts, then I'll call bullshit on the fact Saf and Aage got 5 gifts between themselves, which most likely means we already have scum concealing gift(s). Nobody got more than 2 gifts other than Jak, that only actually got 1 and "stole" 2. If this is the case, we most likely already have lie #1 to use as a lead.

[Yomiel]

As I pointed out, Mafia getting the gifts is not the only problem. There is also interference, such as roleblocking and gift-stealing. Let's just stick with lynching LSU and see how that plays out.

[spiesr]

It's not so easy to realize a person is lying. If everyone says they are Town, some people have to be lying, but you can't easily figure out who just like that.

Well, yes, every scum is going to lie about their alignment. Just like in every game. However, what I was actually talking about, if someone lies and says that they got a gift that doesn't actually exists they will eventually be found to have lied about it. As such, no rational player is likely to lie about that.

As I pointed out, Mafia getting the gifts is not the only problem. There is also interference, such as roleblocking and gift-stealing. Let's just stick with lynching LSU and see how that plays out.

Well, scum can only roleblock if they get a roleblock gift. Roleblocking doesn't stop someone from giving a gift, just using it at night. This plan would not make it significantly easier for the scum to succesfully roleblock a the recipient of the cop gift. (The only way it could help them with that goal is if all/most of the scum are in the same group and they don't get given the cop gift, then they would know if was given to one of a small number of people, somewhat increasing their odds of hitting the right person.) As for gift stealing, we have not seen any evidence that there is any gift stealing mechanic apart from the (now deceased) gift magnet item. I don't really think that the scum will have any inherent gift stealing ability, but if they do I don't see how this plan would alter their effectiveness in stealing the cop gifts.
Reguarding lynching LSU, this plan is not directly related to lynching or not lynching him. It is just a way to tell the two identical gifts apart in future days.

If Shield claims 0 gifts, then I'll call bullshit on the fact Saf and Aage got 5 gifts between themselves

In my opinion the chances of safariguy and aage having received 5 gifts between them is actually pretty decent. Safariguy is one of the most respected/experienced players in the game, and is therefor a natural magnet for gifts. Last time around I believe he got 5 gifts himself one night. (And then got blocked, thus rendering all the game's investigation gifts useless that night.) We definitely need to hear from Shield/his replacement ASAP though.

[Yomiel]

Well, I'm not lying. Hopefully, that will be proven tomorrow, if the gifts all arrive safely.

I just don't think the plan will work.

And lynching LSU is what we need to focus on. The longer we put it off, the more likely he'll talk his way out of it or something will happen.

[spiesr]

I just don't think the plan will work.

Okay, but if you are hypothetically the one who gifted pancake the cop item would you agree to try it?

And lynching LSU is what we need to focus on. The longer we put it off, the more likely he'll talk his way out of it or something will happen.

Him "talking his way out of the lynch" is only a bad thing if he is scum. Since you have admitted that we don't know for sure if the investigation was sane/accurate right now, you should be able to accept that we at least need to strongly consider the issue before coming to a decision.

[Yomiel]

Not really. Sounds way too complicated, and I know about all the reasons why it wouldn't work. I'd want the person found guilty with my gift lynched, then I would keep my gift to myself if I saw that he wasn't Mafia.

I've said it's better for him to die regardless. Even if he is Town, we learn that there is a Cop gift that doesn't work, which is invaluable knowledge.

[Rodion]

Assume we lynch LSU and he flips town. You don't know whether your gift was paranoid or insane. If it's insane, there is no reason not to keep using it (insane cop is as useful as sane once we correctly determine that he is insane). That is to say the possible cop gifters should keep gifting even if we lynch LSU/Jak and prove their gifts were inaccurate.

Also, I'm not allowing anyone to be lynched before we heard from Shield/replacement.

@Spiesr - point taken, but do you know whether Saf got 5 gifts N1 or whether it was later on?

[LSU Tiger Josh]

And you remain tunnel visioned on looking only at me. If people followed spiesr's plan than it would work. As I said earlier once said investigation turned up a different result than it would be reasonable at that point to test a sanity. You also fail to take into account what my gift actually is since at this point even I don't know what it is. Testing a sanity on someone that may have gifted a cop doctor tracker result is at best ignorantj and at worst scummy as hell.

[jak111]

Nobody took the bait to vote me! So sad!

Anyway, Jak:

He was soon dragged away, leaving nothing but some pink fur, and the scorched remains of a book.

aage, town roleblock gifter has been killed!

??? (The non mentioned gift): Book of bad poetry.

I find it particularly interesting that the poetries are so bad that they lead its readers to suicide. It's like a bad Werther.

Oh wow, I didn't even catch that. But that's a nice memory and pair of eyes Rodion, just I wish it was more useful to getting mafia with it is all XD

As for Yomiel, be quiet for now. I've backed you up here once, I'm not doing so again if you decide to keep pushing. Although / hopefully gets around to replacement soon. He can read the plan and it wont work if the person we need isn't even there.

Fastposted by LSU. You shush as well. Think about it logically. I bet if it were anyone else you would go for a lynch.

[Yomiel]

I caught that a while ago.O_O Just didn't think it was worth mentioning.

Now might be a good time to mention I only have the vaguest idea what all this sane/insane stuff is. No idea about paranoid. What I do know, is this: If LSU turns out to be Town, then the gift should not be given anymore. If we can't trust the accuracy, what's the point?

I will not be quiet. I'm playing the game. I'll continue pushing for a lynch, and there is nothing wrong with that. Think what you want about it, but it's a perfectly fine game move. Letting him weasel his way out of this is nothing something I'm going to just let happen, especially as he acts more and more like Mafia with each post. We've nothing to lose and everything to gain by lynching him.

[/]

Attention!

Crazymilkshake is replacing shieldgenerator effective immediately.
If y’all notice anyone else to needs to be replaced, please tell me

[Yomiel]

Maybe now everyone will finally get the answers they want.@_@

[LSU Tiger Josh]

In a "normal" game I probably would. In a game where people just receive gifts I would not encourage a lybch until I found a gift to have more than just a "guilty" response. If I found that my gift sucked and that particular cop gift could in fact result in more than just guilty I would be fine with testing the sanity at that point. If it turns out that my gift is quite valuable than I would prefer to stay alive and could at least point out why my gift at that point is worth me being alive.

[Yomiel]

That makes no sense.

[spiesr]

If I found that my gift sucked and that particular cop gift could in fact result in more than just guilty I would be fine with testing the sanity at that point. If it turns out that my gift is quite valuable than I would prefer to stay alive and could at least point out why my gift at that point is worth me being alive.

If you are scum then you need to be lynched no matter how good your gift is. And the scum may very well have worthwhile gifts.

Not really. Sounds way too complicated, and I know about all the reasons why it wouldn't work. I'd want the person found guilty with my gift lynched, then I would keep my gift to myself if I saw that he wasn't Mafia.

Even if you for some reason don't have confidence in the plan, what would it hurt to try it? If you were the cop gifter all you would have to do is restrict your choice if gift recipient to one half of the players.

Now might be a good time to mention I only have the vaguest idea what all this sane/insane stuff is. No idea about paranoid. What I do know, is this: If LSU turns out to be Town, then the gift should not be given anymore. If we can't trust the accuracy, what's the point?

If you don't know what you are talking about then you aren't in any position to decide how this should work.
There are four standard sanities that a cop can have.
Sane: The normal cop, his investigations are correct.
Insane: The investigations yield the opposite result. Town would come up as guilty and scum would come up innocent.
Naive: All results are innocent.
Paranoid: All results are guilty.
While naive and paranoid cops are mostly useless, the insane cop can still be useful despite getting the "wrong" results. So, if we lynch LSU and he comes up town that gift should still be given (as long as we can tell it apart from the other one) because it could still be useful even if it is insane.
I thought that you had prior mafia experience, have you really never encountered this before?

[LSU Tiger Josh]

Yes scum should die. My point is that I am not scum and my gift may very well lead us to scum. I already stated once the investigation gives a different result on someone than sanity test can be had. If my gift winds up sucking than I would gladly volunteer to be the test at that time. Right now I don't know what my gift is yet and maintain waiting at least one more day to get either a diff result by the cop investigation or for me to figure out what I gave

[soundman]

Will you just stop, Yomiel? Lynch, lynch, lynch! It's driving me nuts. LSU is not going to "weasel he way out" of a guilty result. It will still be there after we have the rest of the info. We need to wait for Crazy's info. It's plain stupid to end the day without all the info. No hard feelings but I want to lynch you just to make you stop!

If Crazy doesn't have a major game changer then we should probably lynch LSU. Also, LSU, could you at least tell us who you sent your gift to? At least that way we would have a few guesses as to what your gift is.

I wasn't around yesterday because I was traveling to Nebraska. I'm not sure what my activity will look like this week but I should be able to keep up with the reading and important stuff.

[Yomiel]

I've already listed all the reason why the plan would not work, so why on earth would I try it? For another matter, how do I even know YOU'RE not Mafia?

My main Mafia site never had those things, and I'm not fond of the idea of them. The only way we can even begin to figure out the nature of the Cop gift, is by killing LSU and checking it out. And several people have already pointed out how suspicious he is acting. Not to mention he's been throwing around insults left and right.

I will not stop playing, no matter what anyone says. When you say stuff like that, it makes you look like Mafia, trying to save your buddy.

[Campin_Killer]

Who did you gift last night, LSU?

Fastposted, and for God's sake Yomiel, if I see the word "lynch" in one of your next two posts, I will lose it.

[Yomiel]

Let's lynch Campin next?

[jak111]

Who did you gift last night, LSU?

Fastposted, and for God's sake Yomiel, if I see the word "lynch" in one of your next two posts, I will lose it.

The VERY next post

Let's lynch Campin next?

Hahahahaha. Oh gawd.. I can't stop laughing now >.< Nothing game breaking is gonna come out of this post but this is funny as hell XD Are you TRYING to drive people insane Yomiel? XD

[Yomiel]

That one was on purpose.

He's one of a few people that just really seems to have it in for me, so I just said it.