Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[Ragian]

Also I want to give kudos to ragian on his new guy case, that was one of the best finds of the day for me.

Cheers, buddy ...

Also I want to give kudos to ragian on his new guy case, that was one of the best finds of the day for me.

I missed it, whats going on with new guy?

@Ragian- If anything, this puzzled me a bit:

It is supposed to be as you said, Im sorry that I word it differently then you wish, oh wait no Im not.

So "out unnecessary power roles" and "out power roles unnecessarily" is the same? Is that what you're saying? To me you call power roles indifferent instead of saying that we shouldn't out power roles, but semantics aside ...

You find it wierd that I gave reasoning (not outting powerroles) as to why we should limit claiming and then saying Im okay with chap claiming? I said limit, not have none. Why focus on the person I find scummy? Oh I dont know, to get a claim?

1) This is what you said:

When talking about chapcrap, I dont think he looks particularly scummy but I will keep an eye on him and would not be against a claim from him.

2) I found it weird that you voted for the first guy you mentioned when you also said that you wouldn't want too many claims. Besides you said that you DIDN'T find him particularly scummy. If you want to limit the claims, why don't you want someone you DO find particularly scummy to be pressured for a claim instead?

The bit in bold is wrong though. New guy didn't vote for chap, but wasn't against getting a claim from him. It's not much, but it did catch my eye ..

---

I'm also reposting this because it wasn't addressed (unless I totally missed it).

@jak, are we to understand that it's your position that claimed roles should not disclose their information so they have to answer to that?

[gimli1990]

i completely agree with everywhere here right now this agruement has been getting long and painful to continue to read it as it has been going for around 10-12 pages now and i am getting sick however i do agree with saf about you revealing the night actions

@ jak i am very curious as well to your case on chap and to see what you have waiting on that yet.

@ saf obviously i agree with you that he should reveal his night action but short on lynching him i do not believe we will get it out of him today.

fastposted by ragian

i was just getting to that new guys case is there but very strong but it is something to watch as the day goes on.

i know i have not posted much but i am reading along and am very busy just joined a clan and so on sorry about me not being that active.

and a vote count please i have not seen one in a couple days now

[gimli1990]

i was just getting to that new guys case is there but very strong but it is something to watch as the day goes on.

i was just getting to that new guys case is there but not very strong but it is something to watch as the day goes on.

sorry about the douple pst just wanted to fix that

[pmchugh]

Jak, at this point revealing your night action would be the best thing for the game. The chances are revealing your action will act as WIFOM anyway and we have been on this subject for far too long.

I really don't see why people think this is an important piece of "information", if he is doc then it is worthless, if he isn't then it's extremely unlikely that his night action reveal would get him caught today but not tomorrow. However, the important thing from my point of view is to move the game forward and revealing your action would do that and stop the scum from hiding behind this point.

On the other hand, you expressed interest in pursuing an inactive wagon. Considering how much flak I got yesterday for suggesting the same thing from people like pmc, I would conclude that precedent says that is considered a non-townie thing to be doing this game. Unless the people who voted my wagon somehow can justify how inactive hunting yesterday is scummy but inactive hunting today is not.

Of course there is a difference, we had just all put forward a great amount of information that was relevant and lynching from that provided info. Today the game has slowed down and people are not posting much, an inactive wagon may help to bring them out the woodwork and state some opinions. Of course I would still argue there is enough in the game for better BWs but it may take a full reread to find it.

[new guy1]

Guys, not to alarm you all but I just went back to re-read the latest VC, and the day is supposed to end in around 7 and 1/2 hours, so I am going to request to him that we get an extension of a day or two if that is the general concensus, but as of right now the unofficial end-day is 7.5 hours away. Either we get started on a new case or you guys get enough support to get Jak's night action. I am wondering why nobody believes him when he says its NOT important, but if you all wish for it then I suppose it will eventually be recieved.

[jak111]

I've already said it will not be given out, the decision is final that if I make it tomorrow it will be given.

To answer the Chap thing, most of it is gut feeling because he covers himself well (Which I've mentioned before if you didn't skim it too much), but a lot of it has to do with his cases yesterday and the one he's following today, (if you can call it a case). He's been quick to want JG dead, and he's been quick to hop on the jak wagon yesterday AND today.

For Everywhere, he's panicking. He's bringing up a case that's been answered repeatedly and he's using WIFOM to guide it.

Right now it's not as much about protecting who I decided to protect last night as much as it is looking to see who respects me enough to actually read the answers I've given. My choice is final, it's either tomorrow or I'm dead, either way both sides are happy.

If you will read this part if nothing else (this goes to everyone out there), that if you choose to believe me town, then you should trust my decision that it's of no use and I'm making the mafia's heads spin. If they believe me mafia, then tomorrow when I say TWO night actions and neither get countered they should be pleased. No one here should be able to say "I believe you are mafia, and you might not make it until tomorrow to give out both night actions" Well if I'm mafia, I'll make it until tomorrow for sure, if I'm town, just at least have respect for my decision.

Sorry for making the above in large, but I just am trying to let your eyes read it Saf, Everywhere, and anyone else who's continuing with this. Read it carefully because it's what I said in my last post that people have decided to ignore, so until that's read I'm not bothering with more complaints and questions that have been answered again and again.

Now, if people would like to actually get information for today, I'd personally suggest Chap. We have 4 people there at the moment, he's sketchy at best, he's active enough to give us information.
Or.. we can just go into the night with nothing because everyone wanted to goof around on this meaningless case.

[safariguy5]

At this point, I guess you drew the line in the sand.

So I suggest putting lynch pressure on jak to get information. Either way, I think you're playing doc terribly, and I cannot put blind faith in extremely sketchy play on Day 1 that led to a claim and continued odd play today. The pattern of bad play by jak has eroded my belief in him being town.

If, under lynch pressure, he continues to refuse to give us information, then we'll know he wasn't acting in best interest in town anyways and I would fully support a lynch.

[chapcrap]

Even though jak is playing a doc very poorly, I will not vote for a claimed doc without a little more evidence. But jak, you have done nothing to show me that you are a doc at all. I have little faith at the moment.

I also will not vote myself, because I don't believe that jak's case of a 'gut feeling' and me defending myself well holds any water at all. I mean really, your whole case is that I defend myself well?

Moving on, I would also ask for an extension for today. The town needs one in order to find someone to lynch. A no lynch after a stupid day like today has been would be awful.

So, for lack of a better case or lead, I will unvote vote newguy1. For the reasons I did yesterday, which no one agreed with apparently, and for the similar statements that Ragian made earlier today.

[new guy1]

Even though jak is playing a doc very poorly, I will not vote for a claimed doc without a little more evidence. But jak, you have done nothing to show me that you are a doc at all. I have little faith at the moment.

I also will not vote myself, because I don't believe that jak's case of a 'gut feeling' and me defending myself well holds any water at all. I mean really, your whole case is that I defend myself well?

Moving on, I would also ask for an extension for today. The town needs one in order to find someone to lynch. A no lynch after a stupid day like today has been would be awful.

So, for lack of a better case or lead, I will unvote vote newguy1. For the reasons I did yesterday, which no one agreed with apparently, and for the similar statements that Ragian made earlier today.

I believe the last think he said was he would give an extension, and like I said theres no better case cause you didnt look for one, your just content to vote me cause you cant/wont do any work for another case, and thats why you stack your reasons with ragain's reasons which as I recall were the same reasons for the most part to make a shit case. I hate shit cases, plus Ive said all I can to defend myself as I have answered for every point either one of you presented, therefore I have no idea how I am going to defend against this, but go ahead and lead a pointless BW.

[pmchugh]

, that if you choose to believe me town, then you should trust my decision that it's of no use and I'm making the mafia's heads spin.

Jak, you are really getting quite annoying. I don't think you are making mafia's head spin, I really don't. I don't "trust" your decision. I think you are town, but I think you are wrong and just being stubborn by now.

Having said all that saf trying to "pressure" you with virtually no time left is highly suspicious and almost lynch worthy.

FASTPOSTED

Newguy, the reason why what he said was a good point was because you were inconsistent in your play. If you say you want to "limit" claims and then ask someone to claim for little reason (while not suspecting them) then it calls your credibility into question. To me you got rag to back off on a technicality (that you hadn't voted), his points were still valid. Your explanation was:

I want to limit claims to prevent uncovering powerroles unnessesarily, but if the rest of the town decides he is worthy of a claim then I will not argue it, I will just likely not want EVERYONE claiming, if you get what I mean by that... Does that answer it well enough?

No it doesn't, there were few people voting for chap and as a member of the town it is your job to evaluate cases and vote accordingly. This is akin to admitting you sheep and is hardly a good excuse.

[new guy1]

I said that if the town supports a claim from him, then I will accept it, but that I was not going to vote. How is that admitting to sheeping when IM NOT FOLLOWING THE HERD. I said that I wanted to limit claims, and if the town thought that we should get chap's, so be it, but I was not going to support it. Read up, cause I KNOW I said that somewhere.

[safariguy5]

, that if you choose to believe me town, then you should trust my decision that it's of no use and I'm making the mafia's heads spin.

Jak, you are really getting quite annoying. I don't think you are making mafia's head spin, I really don't. I don't "trust" your decision. I think you are town, but I think you are wrong and just being stubborn by now.

Having said all that saf trying to "pressure" you with virtually no time left is highly suspicious and almost lynch worthy.

FASTPOSTED

Newguy, the reason why what he said was a good point was because you were inconsistent in your play. If you say you want to "limit" claims and then ask someone to claim for little reason (while not suspecting them) then it calls your credibility into question. To me you got rag to back off on a technicality (that you hadn't voted), his points were still valid. Your explanation was:

I want to limit claims to prevent uncovering powerroles unnessesarily, but if the rest of the town decides he is worthy of a claim then I will not argue it, I will just likely not want EVERYONE claiming, if you get what I mean by that... Does that answer it well enough?

No it doesn't, there were few people voting for chap and as a member of the town it is your job to evaluate cases and vote accordingly. This is akin to admitting you sheep and is hardly a good excuse.

Ok, did you know we had no time left until new guy brought it up? I haven't seen a VC in at least 5 pages much less a reminder about time left.

Your post now technically is past deadline anyways because I haven't seen a formal extension by ghostly. Since I haven't heard any Word of God, I will continue this line of argument until he clarifies the situation.

To recap, let's do a little risk/reward analysis.

If jak is town:

Withhold night action: Claims it's making the mafia's head spin. Unlikely because the mafia nightkill succeeded last night. WIFOM only occurs when we have 2 unequal choices. Since mafia killed last night, there is no advantage of WIFOM gained. If jak had successfully blocked the kill last night, I can see the inequality of choice and therefore would understand if jak chooses to withhold his info. I might also add that jak could save anyone while the mafia only kill townies. So jak has the potential of saving mafia, which automatically means his protection will fail bar some busdrive or some other protective role or roleblocking. So trying to say it's putting mafia in a disadvantageous position is just incorrect as it is actually the doc who is in a disadvantaged position.

If jak is mafia:

Reveal night action: By necessity, must lie. If someone has info to prove that he is lying, they have 1 of 2 choices.

1. Try to get him lynched without hardclaiming.
2. Claim the night action and try to get him lynched.

Either way, we get one mafia and potentially have a lead based on the faked target. At the very least, gives investigative roles a possible target to check to see if the claimed target was mafia jak was trying to establish town cred for.

Regardless, each subsequent night, jak must fake more night actions so the probability someone finds him lying becomes greater.

But without predicting the future, we have a possibility to catch jak fakeclaiming today if he is mafia and no real advantage to jak if he is town by withholding his night action.

[ghostly447]

Deadline extends to 5/24/12. Sorry, another busy weekend as expected. Vote Count coming up shortly.

[jak111]

, that if you choose to believe me town, then you should trust my decision that it's of no use and I'm making the mafia's heads spin.

Jak, you are really getting quite annoying. I don't think you are making mafia's head spin, I really don't. I don't "trust" your decision. I think you are town, but I think you are wrong and just being stubborn by now.

Having said all that saf trying to "pressure" you with virtually no time left is highly suspicious and almost lynch worthy.

FASTPOSTED

Newguy, the reason why what he said was a good point was because you were inconsistent in your play. If you say you want to "limit" claims and then ask someone to claim for little reason (while not suspecting them) then it calls your credibility into question. To me you got rag to back off on a technicality (that you hadn't voted), his points were still valid. Your explanation was:

I want to limit claims to prevent uncovering powerroles unnessesarily, but if the rest of the town decides he is worthy of a claim then I will not argue it, I will just likely not want EVERYONE claiming, if you get what I mean by that... Does that answer it well enough?

No it doesn't, there were few people voting for chap and as a member of the town it is your job to evaluate cases and vote accordingly. This is akin to admitting you sheep and is hardly a good excuse.

Ok, did you know we had no time left until new guy brought it up? I haven't seen a VC in at least 5 pages much less a reminder about time left.

Your post now technically is past deadline anyways because I haven't seen a formal extension by ghostly. Since I haven't heard any Word of God, I will continue this line of argument until he clarifies the situation.

To recap, let's do a little risk/reward analysis.

If jak is town:

Withhold night action: Claims it's making the mafia's head spin. Unlikely because the mafia nightkill succeeded last night. WIFOM only occurs when we have 2 unequal choices. Since mafia killed last night, there is no advantage of WIFOM gained. If jak had successfully blocked the kill last night, I can see the inequality of choice and therefore would understand if jak chooses to withhold his info. I might also add that jak could save anyone while the mafia only kill townies. So jak has the potential of saving mafia, which automatically means his protection will fail bar some busdrive or some other protective role or roleblocking. So trying to say it's putting mafia in a disadvantageous position is just incorrect as it is actually the doc who is in a disadvantaged position.

If jak is mafia:

Reveal night action: By necessity, must lie. If someone has info to prove that he is lying, they have 1 of 2 choices.

1. Try to get him lynched without hardclaiming.
2. Claim the night action and try to get him lynched.

Either way, we get one mafia and potentially have a lead based on the faked target. At the very least, gives investigative roles a possible target to check to see if the claimed target was mafia jak was trying to establish town cred for.

Regardless, each subsequent night, jak must fake more night actions so the probability someone finds him lying becomes greater.

But without predicting the future, we have a possibility to catch jak fakeclaiming today if he is mafia and no real advantage to jak if he is town by withholding his night action.

If I blocked the kill last night, it'd need to be brought forward so town knows who's cleared. Mafia would already know me the doc and the person they targeted the town

Now saying the opposite is false, I must say this is false as well. If I withhold information that doesn't help town out today, and the mafia are left second guessing who I'm protecting, then there is a smaller choice for them to choose from of who I might not protect. For example, you're some what scummy in my eyes due to the entire debate today, so you'd be an open target.

Again, you skim what I've said many times by now. I WILL CLAIM BOTH MY NIGHT ACTIONS TOMORROW IF I LIVE.
Now that being said, you can't say "he's going to hide being his fake claim" Because with me stating it I must now say it tomorrow and there will be TWO night actions that have a chance to be proven wrong.

~I've drawn the line
~I've stated what I will do
~I have not been countered by anyone yet
~Everyone else agrees that I can say my night actions tomorrow
~You've worn this day down past the first deadline

So I suggest moving on for today Saf, no one is supporting you besides trying to make side notes that my logic is awful, which I don't blame them but it's my choice in it. The time is running low and I've already stated that I will claim my night actions tomorrow which should be sufficient enough for you to actually put your head on straight and help us get information TODAY.

[ghostly447]

Official Simplified Vote Count

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch


ChapCrap – Jak111, Rodion
New Guy1 – ChapCrap
DoomYoshi – Everywhere
S7C – Leehar
Safariguy – SG7
Jak111 – Safari, DoomYoshi, S7C

Every bit is correct as far as I know here. Please correct me if I am wrong. As said above, new deadline is 5/24/12 9pm EST. I couldnt get on much this weekend. I should be more active during the weekdays. Any further concerns, please PM me.

[thechuck51]

Even though jak is playing a doc very poorly, I will not vote for a claimed doc without a little more evidence. But jak, you have done nothing to show me that you are a doc at all. I have little faith at the moment.

I also will not vote myself, because I don't believe that jak's case of a 'gut feeling' and me defending myself well holds any water at all. I mean really, your whole case is that I defend myself well?

Moving on, I would also ask for an extension for today. The town needs one in order to find someone to lynch. A no lynch after a stupid day like today has been would be awful.

So, for lack of a better case or lead, I will unvote vote newguy1. For the reasons I did yesterday, which no one agreed with apparently, and for the similar statements that Ragian made earlier today.

I will vote newguy1 as well.

He was on my list from before. JG has been lynched and I am not ready to vote the claimed doc which leaves NG1. As somebody else mentioned, he has been inconsistent regarding pressuring for claims. He was involved in Jak's softclaim which I find scummy all around. In addition he also has been overly defensive of jak as if he know something the rest of us don't.

[new guy1]

I was not freaking inconsistant, I said I wanted to limit claims- 1 thing, I said I wasnt going to support a claim from Chap but if town wanted it then I would accept it- another thing. What do you people not see about that? You are trying to combine the two when in all reality my vision of it and your vision of it are two completly different things.

[jak111]

I was not freaking inconsistant, I said I wanted to limit claims- 1 thing, I said I wasnt going to support a claim from Chap but if town wanted it then I would accept it- another thing. What do you people not see about that? You are trying to combine the two when in all reality my vision of it and your vision of it are two completly different things.

Meh, it's a case where people are all like "Well we don't want to pressure the actual threats so we will pressure someone who we can twist words of" Sorry for anyone who takes that personally, but it's pretty much how it goes. Everyone is too afraid to speak up sometimes.. For example.. are these people even still playing???

Rodion ~ Six days ago.
Dj - On and off, two days ago.

But you know.. they're townies so it's all cool they don't contribute.

[new guy1]

IKR? Its too bad I dont have more time otherwise I could get so much from people, but I spend my time outside these days so by the time I get back I dont have time or Im too tired, so I just respond to accusations and read up and get off... not in that order cause obviously I read up first, but you know want to make that clear so that I dont get more crap. Either way, Im getting off soon, so I dont have time to make a case tonight, maybe at school tomorrow if I finish my 3-week late project. Lol.

[jak111]

IKR? Its too bad I dont have more time otherwise I could get so much from people, but I spend my time outside these days so by the time I get back I dont have time or Im too tired, so I just respond to accusations and read up and get off... not in that order cause obviously I read up first, but you know want to make that clear so that I dont get more crap. Either way, Im getting off soon, so I dont have time to make a case tonight, maybe at school tomorrow if I finish my 3-week late project. Lol.

There's always the thing on Chap that people seem afraid to help out with if you wish to lend a hand there. A lot of people are trying to defend him with not enough evidence, but to me it's exactly enough.
~He hops aboard wagons or results to easy people to pick on
~He sheeps peoples reasons
~Besides those two he's been careful enough not to slip, I wonder what he's hiding <.< >.>.
But like I said, not enough people have the courage to push him against the wall, they'd rather the easy pickings.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

I was not freaking inconsistant, I said I wanted to limit claims- 1 thing, I said I wasnt going to support a claim from Chap but if town wanted it then I would accept it- another thing. What do you people not see about that? You are trying to combine the two when in all reality my vision of it and your vision of it are two completly different things.

dang i was subconsiously siding against new guy here but this does make sense. he wanted to limit the claims doesnt mean he didnt want any at all and if he didnt want to vote for the guy doesnt mean that noone else would.

i do actually agree with not wanting claims but like one or town is gonnna happen and we cant control that unless we absolutely know who is mafia.

fasposted.
ya that project is way late...good luck

FASTPOSTED AGAIN GOD DANG IT!
well fine then i have guts so unvote vote chap
i dont like that thats happening an im glad you caught it. so therefore i dont dcare. i want people to buck up. im going to find the most inactive people tommorow at school

[jak111]

...unless we absolutely know who is mafia...

Well maybe if we say please the mafia will tell us who all the town are.. XDD

[new guy1]

Thats exactly the point jak (refering to your post on P. 83, I dont want to vote chap as I dont find him scummy, therefore I am not "Bucking Up" As I dont find it a worthy case.

[everywhere116]

Well, I'm glad to see that the jak feud is over. Let's hope it stays that way. Now that we can focus on other things, I am also going to Vote newguy, although not for the reasons Ragian gave. I actually can understand wanting to limit claims but be willing to let one claim out. My reasons are partially because he was acting fairly scummy yesterday (enough to make my and a lot of other people's lists), but mainly with sunset closing in on us it is obvious that votes are going to fall on ng/chap lines, voting for anyone other than either of these two would be a waste, and I would put my money on him being scum over chap.

[everywhere116]

*Looks at VC*

Dammit. Every single time, I swear if I don't stop doing that I'm going to rip my fingers off....

Unvote vote newguy

*@ghost Do we actually have to unvote to cast our vote for someone else? I remember one of my mods saying that, but I'm not sure if it was you...