Marxists Thread

[Anarchist]

and How many problems were caused or escalated by this interference?

why cant we all be switzerland?
they dont have any enemies

[luns101]

and How many problems were caused or escalated by this interference?

why cant we all be switzerland?
they dont have any enemies

That's only because they make some of the best cheese in the world.

[Anarchy Ninja]

dont they also make chocolate

[luns101]

dont they also make chocolate

Yes, just one more reason for nobody to ever be their enemy.

[Anarchist]

and cookoo clocks
swiss army knives
swiss bank accounts

ok so why doesnt america make good cheese,good chocolate,utility knives,
and annonymous bank accounts?

Instead of anti-matter bombs, nukes, and pathetic foreign policy

[Anarchy Ninja]

cause no one likes them

[luns101]

and cookoo clocks
swiss army knives
swiss bank accounts

ok so why doesnt america make good cheese,good chocolate,utility knives,
and annonymous bank accounts?

We're too busy trying to outlaw soccer...just a guess.

[Anarchy Ninja]

you mean football ( Australia also called it soccer till last years world cup )

[Anarchist]

I was going to say, no wonder they have such a hard time they dont even know what it is or how to play

[Jenos Ridan]

Wait.

And somehow you think America spents too much? When you consider that if it weren't for the US, the UN won't exist. Doubt me? Check the percentage of UN funding the US pays and number of 'peace-keepers' we send to places like Somalia, Bosnia, etc. for the UN. And you forget, defence contractors employ highly-skill technical employee, which goes back into the cycle of supply-and-demand/investment-and-return just like I've described often on this thread.

There you are supporting the actions of the UN and American troops, but

Personnally, I'd like to see the US leave the UN. Why are tax dollars being used to feed some world organization that is more corrupt than most third-world governments? Nobody wants us as the global police, but who else can fill the role and be able to function at home at all?

there, you are denouncing it. Why?

Firstly, I was explaining why the defense budget is so high. I'm very proud of the fact that the US has the military it does. What I'm not proud of, is doing this global policing and catching hell every time we don't do things by the UN's 'scolding' method. Sure, in the name of humanitarianism, the UN has done some things that are noteworthy and most noble. But I can't condone why it sometimes does nothing at all, 'cept 'vocally denounce' someone's actions! The reason I want us out is because nobody wants the US to do what they refuse to do themselves. When we leave them all high and dry, maybe they'll get a grip.

Also:

I'm hopeing you read the part about public works projects. You know, that little bit about roads and schools and other nice stuff? And how the state taxes the rich man to pay the VILLAGERS to build it all? Perhaps by paying them to improve the local infrastructure, they are then able to either buy new land, rent it or maybe they learn a simple trade and open a shop. Free market economics is a cascade-effect, it may be slow, but it rewards hard work, initiative and cunning. If you lived in a marxist utopia, would there be the same reward system? And what is to keep the state from existing in a large, industrial, densely populated nation? I've asked this repeatedly and nobody has come up with a point yet.

But if the vilagers arnt working the land to get money to by food and the rich man is using his new land to grow cash crops rather than food (since Cash crops are more profitable), how exactly will they get money? If they were subsistence farmers, then they are royally screwed, since they would have no skills usefull to the rich man. Even if they somehow manage to get a job, it will very probably be poorly paid and since tey now have no local source of food, the price of food will skyrocket.
The village may have a great new road, but most of them will probably be starving. Not a good thing.

Now that that wordy explaination is over, I'll start on part two. You're quick to downplay the role the State pays in helping people, or how society itself by way of agencies like the Red Cross provide aid. It would seem that no matter what, in your view, the 'robber baron' always wins and the only recourse the poor have is to murder him and take his wealth. Is that how the supposed utopia is to occur? I'm I expected to one day, with a huge mob of other downtrodden drones, rise up and commit acts of mass homicide in order to establish some sort of worker's collective? Communal economics ONLY make sence if your talking about tribal communities like the Bushmen of the Kalihari, not in large metropolitan nations. I'll ask again; what is to keep the state from existing in a large, industrial, densely populated nation? This is the question I want answered. It seems that nobody has tried it, only given me the 'in marxism there is no state' line.

[Anarchist]

Part 1 Now your getting the picture

part 2 can you rephrase that question?

not in large metropolitan nations. I'll ask again; what is to keep the state from existing in a large, industrial, densely populated nation? This is the question I want answered. It seems that nobody has tried it, only given me the 'in marxism there is no state' line.

You state that a Marxist society can only work in small populations, then make it seem like the city MUST have a state? or are you asking what keeps it from appearing?
-Can you please elaberate this question^?

If it is what STOPS a state from being formed, its quite simple,we simply do not allow a hierarchy to be formed. The reason Police have power is because we let them, The reason politicians rule us is because we allow them to speak for us. The reason we all depend on money is we allow ourselves to be dependent on it, The reason we work is because we allow the property owners to charge us for food,water, and shelter. Things we need to live. (im sorry if i missunderstood the question)

The arguement i always get is that the state protects us from all that is bad, while the dissagreement lies in that the state itself tends to be bad by creating the social,economic dilemas are arguement is trying to solve
if we remove the things that seperate us, we will be one tribe spread throughout the land.(simple version)

[Jenos Ridan]

Part 1 Now your getting the picture

part 2 can you rephrase that question?

not in large metropolitan nations. I'll ask again; what is to keep the state from existing in a large, industrial, densely populated nation? This is the question I want answered. It seems that nobody has tried it, only given me the 'in marxism there is no state' line.

You state that a Marxist society can only work in small populations, then make it seem like the city MUST have a state? or are you asking what keeps it from appearing?
-Can you please elaberate this question^?

If it is what STOPS a state from being formed, its quite simple,we simply do not allow a hierarchy to be formed. The reason Police have power is because we let them, The reason politicians rule us is because we allow them to speak for us. The reason we all depend on money is we allow ourselves to be dependent on it, The reason we work is because we allow the property owners to charge us for food,water, and shelter. Things we need to live. (im sorry if i missunderstood the question)

The arguement i always get is that the state protects us from all that is bad, while the dissagreement lies in that the state itself tends to be bad by creating the social,economic dilemas are arguement is trying to solve
if we remove the things that seperate us, we will be one tribe spread throughout the land.(simple version)

And how, exactly, is one to prevent politicians and buerocrats from arising? Someone has to keep track of the movement of goods and people. And someone to keep track of them. and so on.... The larger the population, the more people need to be employed to keep an eye on others. I'm asking what is to keep a state from forming.

And I'm talking about MULTIPLE cities. And large ones like New York (hell, even Seattle is large enough). How do you see to the needs of MILLIONS without voluntarially giving authority over to someone (ie, forming a hierarchy)? Require every citizen to vote on every decision? It is hard enough to get a few hundred people to vote on something. Do you realize how often the average person would have to go to a 'town hall' meeting to vote? More importantly, how are these voters to be informed without buerocrats printing menos and broadcasting notices? How about record keeping?

[foolish_yeti]

I think the entire notion of the US as some noble world police is laughable.

[Guiscard]

I think the entire notion of the US as some noble world police is laughable.

Laughable but at the same time intensely scary...

[Jenos Ridan]

I think the entire notion of the US as some noble world police is laughable.

The fact is, we do it with little help and the only countries which are grateful as the ones HELPING us solve the worlds problems (ie; the UK, Austrialia, etc.) The world wants help, but if it evolves America, then it is either: Not enough, condemed by the UN (who if it weren't for the few nations who do anything would do nothing but send what amounts to hatemail) or otherwise unwanted. Just once, I'd like to see how the world fairs with out those few nations who seem like they give a damn!

[Anarchist]

I think the entire notion of the US as some noble world police is laughable.

The fact is, we do it with little help and the only countries which are grateful as the ones HELPING us solve the worlds problems (ie; the UK, Austrialia, etc.) The world wants help, but if it evolves America, then it is either: Not enough, condemed by the UN (who if it weren't for the few nations who do anything would do nothing but send what amounts to hatemail) or otherwise unwanted. Just once, I'd like to see how the world fairs with out those few nations who seem like they give a damn!

One step closer to world peace, aslong as what goes on within these borders becomes the same way. The Conquerer and the Conquered will never be friends.

As to your question, it seems like you have a hard time imagining a world without state and corporations. Without having jobs to go to and without politicians to vote for. I dont really see a need for record keepers, maybe Historians? As for global trade would become a luxory more then a commodity, production would become based locally, for example food would become the communities concern, not what advertising agency promotes the best sandwich. (economy isnt a stroingpoint of mine since it sounds like so much capitalist bullshit) I would imagine trade would be done the old fashioned way, by the individual. Is it so hard to live your life for yourself?

And how, exactly, is one to prevent politicians and buerocrats from arising? Someone has to keep track of the movement of goods and people. And someone to keep track of them. and so on.... The larger the population, the more people need to be employed to keep an eye on others. I'm asking what is to keep a state from forming.

Only reason we need people to keep track of everything is because we have greedy people who want to make sure they have most of it. Why do we need someone that keeps track of where you go? Do you not keep in touch with your friends? the movement of goods would most likely be what you or your group carries with you, if you choose to remain in one place it would be wise to provide your own food
(EXAMPLE)
"I have an apple,an orange, a calculater...." Sorry if you cant have a pineapple from the tropics, the people in the tropics deserve that pineapple more then you... Do you want a pineapple? Go to the tropics.

As for leaders, its whoever offers the best idea. if you are the President and told me to invade Canada, I would tell you your an idiot. I would then be arrested for sedition. If you said lets invade Canada, I would say no thats a stupid idea, and walk away.

[foolish_yeti]

I think the entire notion of the US as some noble world police is laughable.

The fact is, we do it with little help and the only countries which are grateful as the ones HELPING us solve the worlds problems (ie; the UK, Austrialia, etc.) The world wants help, but if it evolves America, then it is either: Not enough, condemed by the UN (who if it weren't for the few nations who do anything would do nothing but send what amounts to hatemail) or otherwise unwanted. Just once, I'd like to see how the world fairs with out those few nations who seem like they give a damn!

I would be hard pressed to find nations who are unwilling to help the world (and are in a position to do so). It's the States methods that most nations have an issue with.

[Jenos Ridan]

Well yes, in societies we rigidly define as being "Marxist", [side note - all socialists are not Marxists! There are many socialists, of which Marx is one. Although I guess most of us are, as he's the most famous by far ]And certainly the Soviets and Chinese were never anything resembing what Marx] proper capitalist-style motivation is sorely lacking. However, seeing as how Marx's entire theories were based on the fact that capitalism was inherantly jinxed against the little guy, it was supposed that the workers would not need their bourgeois motivation, as they obviously do.

Actually, the Soviet and Maoist systems are the logical result. Maybe you should re-read the Communist Manifesto. True, socialism existed before Marx, but then they never advocated total state control, just local communes.

[Neutrino]

Took you long enough to think up a reply. I thought this thread was long dead.

[Jenos Ridan]

Yes, the cleaner will get sick. Will he be sick all the time, no. Will he accept versitile money all the time, yes.

Say that gold isnt worth anything at the New York Stock Exchange. Tell me you wont get an earful about how it is valuable.

so would the street cleaner leave the street dirty because the person on that street isnt giving him anything at the time? he would if he is an ungratefull lazy slob but i like to think that that does not cover the eniter human race all though sometimes i wonder...
ok what do you use gold for if it is so useful? whats that nothing but jewllery. all gold does is look pretty what the f*ck is the usefullness of that... "oh yes i see how gold is valuable to society... it ummmm it"

IT DOES NOTHING!!

Apparently you've never heard of wiring and circuitry.

[Neutrino]

Apparently you've never heard of wiring and circuitry.

Which only requires very small amounts and which other metals can do just as well.

And you forgot radiation shielding, always vital in everyday life.

[Jenos Ridan]

Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.

A basic shortening of what I said. good job.

why strive? BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LAZY OR GREEDY!! i would strive i see no reason not to. i strive not to be better then everyone else but to make myself a better person, this is rare in todays culture

EXACTLY! Hence why a it wouldn't work.

hence why it wouldnt work on a large scale, rare doesnt mean non-existant

Its been tried numerous times on a small, small scale in late 18th century america (Little Harmony, The Oneida Community). Each one failed and withered away.

And the small scale is the only way it could work at all.

[Jenos Ridan]

I think the entire notion of the US as some noble world police is laughable.

The fact is, we do it with little help and the only countries which are grateful as the ones HELPING us solve the worlds problems (ie; the UK, Austrialia, etc.) The world wants help, but if it evolves America, then it is either: Not enough, condemed by the UN (who if it weren't for the few nations who do anything would do nothing but send what amounts to hatemail) or otherwise unwanted. Just once, I'd like to see how the world fairs with out those few nations who seem like they give a damn!

I would be hard pressed to find nations who are unwilling to help the world (and are in a position to do so). It's the States methods that most nations have an issue with.

At least we try. And what is the other methods? Denounce the offenders? As I said earlier, it is basically the same as you saying I ticked you off on this thread and now you're gonna ignore me. Big F***ing whop! Now, putting boots on the ground and jets in the skies, that sends the message "Hey, you've messed up for the last time". Force is the last option, Teddy Roosevelt said: "Talk softly and carry a big stick."

[Jenos Ridan]

Apparently you've never heard of wiring and circuitry.

Which only requires very small amounts and which other metals can do just as well.

And you forgot radiation shielding, always vital in everyday life.

Actually, gold wires, contacts, circuit parts, etc. work better. Why else use it in high performance electronic parts? Aethetics? Even in the worse form of free market, nowbody is that dumb. Radiation Shielding is LEAD! Which as we all know, is used in the bullets required to impelment the Worker's Revolution.

[Jenos Ridan]

Took you long enough to think up a reply. I thought this thread was long dead.

I took a vacation . So sue me if I have a life other than this forum .