Capital Punishment

[b.k. barunt]

Then his death would be interesting.

[flashleg8]

Then his death would be interesting.

Indeed!
What if he was a cannibal? Would he have to eat himself, or would we all get a slice?

"Oh bloody hell! They've caught another Hannibal Lecter - last time I was at the end of the queue and I had to eat his ring-piece. Bring back hanging I say."

[heavycola]

Then his death would be interesting.

Indeed!
What if he was a cannibal? Would he have to eat himself, or would we all get a slice?

"Oh bloody hell! They've caught another Hannibal Lecter - last time I was at the end of the queue and I had to eat his ring-piece. Bring back hanging I say."

yummy.

Anyway to get back on topic - everyone who agrees the death penalty is barbaric, cruel etc was proved right, everyone else was wrong, yes? I think that's about where we had got to.

[b.k. barunt]

I think we should each handle our own. If someone rapes or kills a close friend or family member, let the friends and family take care of it - spare the taxpayers the expense. Barbaric, yes. Cruel, yes. Etc., yes. The difference between me and luns is that i don't try to justify it, but i will protect my own. I would have to pass on the ring piece though.

[Anarchist]

I think we should each handle our own. If someone rapes or kills a close friend or family member, let the friends and family take care of it - spare the taxpayers the expense. Barbaric, yes. Cruel, yes. Etc., yes. The difference between me and luns is that i don't try to justify it, but i will protect my own. I would have to pass on the ring piece though.

Isnt that closer to how its done in arab countries?

[Guilty_Biscuit]

My memory is pretty hazy on this but... There is/was a tribe/civilisation somewhere in the world that used to handle capital punishment thusly:

The guilty person would be tied up and put in a canoe in the middle of the river and a hold drilled in the canoe. The family of the victim had to watch from the bank. The family of the victim had the choice to either watch the guilty person drown or swim out and rescue them.

Only the family of the victim were allowed to swim out and if they decided not to they had to watch the person drown.

Apparently more often than not the guilty person would be rescued.

[boogiesadda]

there are too many innocent people on death row we just had one in NY that had his conviction overturned after dna samples did not match and the sorry thing is that he discovered who the other murderer was not the courts what if he had been put to death (yes i know we repealed our death penalty) but he was still on death row

[Anarchist]

cant replace the years that were wasted

[MeDeFe]

true, btw do innocents who manage to prove it get any sort of compensation for having had to spend maybe several years in prison in the US and A? Or are they just released with a "Sorry, shit happens"?

[Anarchist]

As far as i know they dont even get a busticket away from the prison.

(they often let people out of jail here in the middle of the night, In the middle of nowhere without a coat) Problem with holding capacity is forcing them to keep prisoners in tents, glad we have so many criminal offenses.

Also america is getting more and more criminals not even charged with a crime, no crime? no court dates.

Im also curious if we are "innocent till prooven guilty" why do we all have to wait in jail for our court hearing? (unlesss were wealthy ofcourse)

[dcowboys055]

As far as i know they dont even get a busticket away from the prison.

Wrong-o.

There was a guy in wisconsin who was serving life in prison for a murder and after 18 years he was exonerated by dna evidence and decided to sue the state and is going to win a huge amount of money. Sad part is he just got arrested for a different murder so he won't get the money, his family will.

[Anarchist]

As far as i know they dont even get a busticket away from the prison.

Wrong-o.

There was a guy in wisconsin who was serving life in prison for a murder and after 18 years he was exonerated by dna evidence and decided to sue the state and is going to win a huge amount of money. Sad part is he just got arrested for a different murder so he won't get the money, his family will.

ok, its good to know after 18 years hell get some money for it

Thats a really shitty story though, Wont they try to pull something? Like he belonged in Jail etc...

[CrazyAnglican]

I think we should each handle our own. If someone rapes or kills a close friend or family member, let the friends and family take care of it - spare the taxpayers the expense. Barbaric, yes. Cruel, yes. Etc., yes. The difference between me and luns is that i don't try to justify it, but i will protect my own. I would have to pass on the ring piece though.

This seems to assume that people are generally just. I wouldn't support the blood feud (Hatfields & McCoys) & were-guild systems(Anglo-Saxon England) of the past. What if someone decides you deserve death for dumping their daughter? That could go on for generations, until nobody knows what the original offense was.

[CrazyAnglican]

Roman citizens were immune to the death penalty.

What?? No.

LINK??

A quick Google search seems to prove you wrong.

Okay, thanks Guiscard for backing me up on that one. I went and looked it up as well. btownmeggy you were right to call me on that one. I was just going from memory, but this site

http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/mores/law/citizenship.htm

lists four rights of Roman citizens, the first of which was immunity from the death penalty. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that this was different in practice (ie. Vestal virgins were executed if they broke their vows, early Christians were executed en masse). I'm not really sure about the citizenship status of women and the Christian martyrs. At least in theory Roman citizens were safe from the death penalty, though.

For citizens, early Imperial Rome was not that much different from Republican Rome. Caesar Augustus took great pains to make sure that things looked the same. Imagine a new president coming in and stripping everyone of their rights of citizenship. Probably not someone that we'd deify the way that they did him. Tiberius wasn't too bad either from what I understand. Caligula was the first real wacko, I think.

[CrazyAnglican]

Okay.........what's a ring piece? Or do I not want to know?

[Stopper]

Okay.........what's a ring piece? Or do I not want to know?

They're like opinions - everyone has one.

[2dimes]

Okay.........what's a ring piece? Or do I not want to know?

They're like opinions - everyone has one.

And your's stinks!

[wiggybowler]

Okay.........what's a ring piece? Or do I not want to know?

They're like opinions - everyone has one.

And your's stinks!

[Jucdor]

First of all we should set up a foundation to this discussion. Which is more important role for the society/government:

A) To provide as safe and w/healthy enviroment for its citizens
B) To make sure single individuals won't have the chance to break the law twice


My answer is A) without a question. Sure the two are linked with each other, but let's imagine few scenario's I call pretty realistic.

Person X kills someone. He knows he has a chance to be sentenced to death and thus kills the vitnesses too. There were 5 of them so indeed he is a serial killer now. He is executed.

or

Person X kills someone. He is caught and goes to prison. After 12 years he is released. Since the prisons are hellholes he has been alienated from the society and has a difficulty in getting his life back. After some time he kills again. He is sentenced to prison again. This time he won't be released, because he is sentenced to mental prison.

or

Person X kills someone. He is caught and goes to prison. The state actually uses money on the prisons, prisoners can watch TV and thus they still now what the world out there is. If they behave well they have a chance to go on holidays from the prison, first superwised but later unsuperwised if the guards think he is reliable. However this person X was a hardass guy and tried to escape on one of the holidays. Thus it takes 16 years from him to get released. After that he works as a welder.


Which one do you prefer? We'll all agree that these are worst-case scenarios, right? I'd say the first scenario is worst by far.

[CrazyAnglican]

Okay.........what's a ring piece? Or do I not want to know?

They're like opinions - everyone has one.

Oh. *realization dawns* Ooooohhh. *full implications appreciated* EEEEWWWWWW!!!!!

[CrazyAnglican]

Okay.........what's a ring piece? Or do I not want to know?

They're like opinions - everyone has one.

And your's stinks!

Not possible considering my feces doesn't

Okay I guess we have to go back to that whole pride conversation now

[Smurf75]

First of all we should set up a foundation to this discussion. Which is more important role for the society/government:

A) To provide as safe and w/healthy enviroment for its citizens
B) To make sure single individuals won't have the chance to break the law twice


My answer is A) without a question. Sure the two are linked with each other, but let's imagine few scenario's I call pretty realistic.

Person X kills someone. He knows he has a chance to be sentenced to death and thus kills the vitnesses too. There were 5 of them so indeed he is a serial killer now. He is executed.

or

Person X kills someone. He is caught and goes to prison. After 12 years he is released. Since the prisons are hellholes he has been alienated from the society and has a difficulty in getting his life back. After some time he kills again. He is sentenced to prison again. This time he won't be released, because he is sentenced to mental prison.

or

Person X kills someone. He is caught and goes to prison. The state actually uses money on the prisons, prisoners can watch TV and thus they still now what the world out there is. If they behave well they have a chance to go on holidays from the prison, first superwised but later unsuperwised if the guards think he is reliable. However this person X was a hardass guy and tried to escape on one of the holidays. Thus it takes 16 years from him to get released. After that he works as a welder.


Which one do you prefer? We'll all agree that these are worst-case scenarios, right? I'd say the first scenario is worst by far.

Why why why..... why did I notice you lives in Finland I was not gonna comment on this thread since I hate those capital punishment threads. Just wanna say that as the fellow finn you are, please stop posting scenarios that just fits your cause.

[Smurf75]

BTW.... might have to post different scenario also.
Person X kills person and knows he can play mental illness and only get 6 months in a mental institution, thus killing a person just because his not afraid of the penalty.

Jucdor : You know how its like in sweden? They have pretty lame laws and nice prisons. Example taken from a few years ago.
Person X travels to Sweden from estonia or russia(dont remember which) and with a hammer smashes another person to death. Reason? He thought he will have it better in a swedish jail than actually beeing free in whatever country from whereever he came.

[Jucdor]

BTW.... might have to post different scenario also.
Person X kills person and knows he can play mental illness and only get 6 months in a mental institution, thus killing a person just because his not afraid of the penalty.

Jucdor : You know how its like in sweden? They have pretty lame laws and nice prisons. Example taken from a few years ago.
Person X travels to Sweden from estonia or russia(dont remember which) and with a hammer smashes another person to death. Reason? He thought he will have it better in a swedish jail than actually beeing free in whatever country from whereever he came.

I have hard time believing that story, because wouldn't he goto jail in whatever country he came from? At least that's what happened to the most dreaded Finnish murderer who killed 4 people in Sweden in the late 80s. He was again in the news half a year ago when he chose to escape from one of his holidays. He was caught 2 days later and gave in without resistance. Why? Because doing so would've just caused him even more trouble. Now he's facing some extra years before he is released.

But even though this news was a big issue in Finland and I'm sure it was that in Sweden as well, I don't base my opinions on single cases, but on statistics. And it is easy to support revenge and not see the big picture. Sure, every system has its setbacks, letting prisons go on holiday naturally has the chance that someone might try to escape. But it requires both courage and wisdom to defend a better system when populistic bricks can go out saying that "oo, the criminals have so comfortable living these days, that they're almost like hotels."

If you show me a study that shows that capital punishment has benefits on general safety and prevents more crimes than it causes, then I am surprised. The best I've seen are that in some cases capital punishment doesn't increase crime, but most studies I'm familiar with shows that capital punishment brutalises the criminal & causes more harm than good.

When it comes to your example scenario, you don't have big faith in doctors and science do you?

And besides, most murderers are just average people like you or me. There isn't a mass murderer gene that is out there that causes people to kill. I have trouble believing that other countrymen would by nature have more murderers in them either. At least in Finland most murder cases are done while drunk. And just imagine the consequences that if you killed someone out of burst of anger and then when you realise what you've done there would be a chance of capital punishment.

[DirtyDishSoap]

BTW.... might have to post different scenario also.
Person X kills person and knows he can play mental illness and only get 6 months in a mental institution, thus killing a person just because his not afraid of the penalty.

Jucdor : You know how its like in sweden? They have pretty lame laws and nice prisons. Example taken from a few years ago.
Person X travels to Sweden from estonia or russia(dont remember which) and with a hammer smashes another person to death. Reason? He thought he will have it better in a swedish jail than actually beeing free in whatever country from whereever he came.

I have hard time believing that story, because wouldn't he goto jail in whatever country he came from? At least that's what happened to the most dreaded Finnish murderer who killed 4 people in Sweden in the late 80s. He was again in the news half a year ago when he chose to escape from one of his holidays. He was caught 2 days later and gave in without resistance. Why? Because doing so would've just caused him even more trouble. Now he's facing some extra years before he is released.

But even though this news was a big issue in Finland and I'm sure it was that in Sweden as well, I don't base my opinions on single cases, but on statistics. And it is easy to support revenge and not see the big picture. Sure, every system has its setbacks, letting prisons go on holiday naturally has the chance that someone might try to escape. But it requires both courage and wisdom to defend a better system when populistic bricks can go out saying that "oo, the criminals have so comfortable living these days, that they're almost like hotels."

If you show me a study that shows that capital punishment has benefits on general safety and prevents more crimes than it causes, then I am surprised. The best I've seen are that in some cases capital punishment doesn't increase crime, but most studies I'm familiar with shows that capital punishment brutalises the criminal & causes more harm than good.

When it comes to your example scenario, you don't have big faith in doctors and science do you?

And besides, most murderers are just average people like you or me. There isn't a mass murderer gene that is out there that causes people to kill. I have trouble believing that other countrymen would by nature have more murderers in them either. At least in Finland most murder cases are done while drunk. And just imagine the consequences that if you killed someone out of burst of anger and then when you realise what you've done there would be a chance of capital punishment.

im going to agree with watever you just said, so far ive read half of it and im saying to myself, sure sure...i'll read the rest soon as i get some shut eye