Capital Punishment

[Anony#1]

Screw morals. There's too many people in the world as it is

SO

Kill them all. They've lost their chance in life. Even if they get out, they'll have to live on as a convict having to work minimal jobs, and guess what, peoples?

That's what mexicans are for!

[MeDeFe]

Eye for an eye

Granted im not much for the false offenses(example statutory Rape when they are dating.) I think punishment is soft, but the crimes are ussually wrong aswell(No punishment unless its a violent offense,with a few exceptions im not thinking of right now) I believe that the system accidently causes many crimes, aswell as additional charges(personal use and intent to sell, should be legal anyway)

What? I didn't quite get that.



Anyway, I agree with jay (second time already!), killing is killing, whether it's done by a private person or instituted by the state. As for whether it can be right...
It would appear that killing a violent dictator who's waging war against other countries and oppressing his people can be seen as something good. But once you start thinking like that you have a precedent and can keep on moving down the line. Execute a murdering psychopath, execute someone who acted in a rage, execute someone who thought he was being attacked, execute someone who acted in self-defense. Someone who was drunk while driving, even? Anyone judged to be "a danger to society"? People who don't "contribute to society"?
I think the lines are too blurred and you're suddenly at a point when you think "this can't be right, but how's it really different from case X?" In my opinion you can't say "killing another person is justified in these cases and in none other", one can (and sooner or later someone will) always come up with a reasonable argument why another case should be added. You either get all or nothing, I don't see any middle ground on something as irrevocable as death.

[Guilty_Biscuit]

Interesting...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17226

[Anarchist]

Eye for an eye

Granted im not much for the false offenses(example statutory Rape when they are dating.) I think punishment is soft, but the crimes are ussually wrong aswell(No punishment unless its a violent offense,with a few exceptions im not thinking of right now) I believe that the system accidently causes many crimes, aswell as additional charges(personal use and intent to sell, should be legal anyway)

I support Capital punishment, I dont Support the Capital(the state which does it)

Stealing a billion dollars doesnt deserve a death sentence
Killing someone does,(unless its self defense)
Rape should result in castration(but it needs to be R.A.P.E!)
Most laws are bullshit, Many Crimes are caused by the fact their are laws against them. EXAMPLE:if it wasnt illegal to NOT pay for your food, you wouldnt be breaking the law. EXAMPLE: if i go 30mph over the speed limit, im not only speeding but being charged with careless and wreckless driving. 3 charges for the same crime.

basicly i agree with punishment, but dissagree with what is considered a crime. Hope that explains it.

[MeDeFe]

You sound like a liberal conservative...

[Anarchist]

even in a utopian society, if you rape my girl im cutting your balls off

[strike wolf]

Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Rehabilitation.

How would they be rehabilitated?

Ordinary people do not kill. We need to ask who is doing the killings and why?

Killings are usually could be carried out by people who have a mental problem - whether a temporary moment of insanity/rage, something from their upbringing/earlier life, or from a mental illness. All these could be treated with psychiatry, whether counselling or prescribing medicine.

Or are the killers doing this because they are in someway anti-social and have no link to normal society? In which case we should attempt to show them the errors of their actions and reintegrate them with our community through a program of re-education.

All I have to say about rehabilitation is that it's easier said than done. Someone who has a mental illness, especially a mental illness caused by some genetic flaw, are not easy to treat.

As for ordinary people do not kill. I disagree. While most murderers are probably normal people. People go hunting. Sure, it's not the same as taking a human life but it is killing when they shoot a deer.

[nagerous]

capital punishment is a form of murder, so when the innocent guy dies even if you thought he was guilty under most of your assanine beliefs should the executor be killed? theres a paradox for you....

you guys are so stupid, you claim to be christians yet isnt the christian thing to do is to forgive and allow the individual to repent for his sins, yet nooo you have to kill the guy don't you. just like the majority of christians you're hypocritical and happy as long as you can have what you want. the world is a complex place and these crazy conservative notions drive me mad.

[Stopper]

even in a utopian society, if you rape my girl im cutting your balls off

That wouldn't be capital punishment, though. Oh, on second thoughts, it might as well be.

[heavycola]

I dont feel in a civilized society we should accept killing people out of it. The problem is so multifaceted that a simple answer to the issue, like putting someone to death shows a lack of willingness to take on all sides, another hallmark of a society that is refusing to be civilized.

HEAR HEAR
well said

[dcowboys055]

you guys are so stupid, you claim to be christians yet isnt the christian thing to do is to forgive and allow the individual to repent for his sins, yet nooo you have to kill the guy don't you.

At a certain point it is not sensible to "let somebody repent and forgive them."

just like the majority of christians you're hypocritical and happy as long as you can have what you want

Hmmm, THAT sounds like stereotyping, so don't go calling the majority of christians hypocritical. Maybe you've been talking to the wrong chrisitans.

[beezer]

you guys are so stupid, you claim to be christians yet isnt the christian thing to do is to forgive and allow the individual to repent for his sins, yet nooo you have to kill the guy don't you.

At a certain point it is not sensible to "let somebody repent and forgive them."

just like the majority of christians you're hypocritical and happy as long as you can have what you want

Hmmm, THAT sounds like stereotyping, so don't go calling the majority of christians hypocritical. Maybe you've been talking to the wrong chrisitans.

That is such a serious misrepresentation of the Christian position! The Christian position is that sin (what you would call bad deeds) must be punished.

Imagine I robbed a bank or stold something from you. I am caught by the police and now I stand before the judge. The evidence against me is overhwhelming. So now I stand before the judge and just say, "Judge, I would like you to forgive me". If that judge lets me off with no punishment then he would not deserve to be a judge.

It's the same with Christianity. Someone had to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus Christ was brutally punished in our place by crucifixion. So that the justice of God could be satisfied.

The thing that gets me here is that so many of you who don't believe in Christ or the Bible continually try to use the Bible against us. In a way, it's quite silly because you're not taking the time to actually read the Bible. You're probably quoting what some secular professor's interpretation of the Bible is. Read it for yourself from start to finish.

For those of you who say, "I have already read it". What!...you read a passage here or there! That doesn't give you a complete understanding of our position on crime and punishment or any other subject for that matter. For those of us who have read it, we can tell when you guys are just saying you've read it, but haven't.

[luns101]

capital punishment is a form of murder, so when the innocent guy dies even if you thought he was guilty under most of your assanine beliefs should the executor be killed? theres a paradox for you....

you guys are so stupid, you claim to be christians yet isnt the christian thing to do is to forgive and allow the individual to repent for his sins, yet nooo you have to kill the guy don't you. just like the majority of christians you're hypocritical and happy as long as you can have what you want. the world is a complex place and these crazy conservative notions drive me mad.

Michael Dukakis called, he would like his talking points back.

[She Wolf]

i am for capital punishment. this is why. I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to maintain serious capital offenders for the rest of their lives.

people who kill others, abuse/kill children, rape & kill women. can not be rehabilitated.
I also think these criminals should not be isolated they should be put into the general population.

people who are repeat offenders should never be let out.

there should be a State wide 3 strikes system in all the US & its' territories.

and for these individuals punishment should include hard labor.

I don't think prison should be like summer camp. it shoud be an experience that should teach a lesson not cater to criminals.

too many serious offenders have been let out only to repeat the crime.
the parole system needs to be updated to something that will put a flag up before letting someone out.

case in point.. i know someone who since he was 18. has been in & out of jail. drugs, assault, robbery....

he was let out in November of last yr. he is 38 yrs old. only to get high & kill his 4 week old daughter. transport the body via public transportation and dumping the body in a garbage compactor in the Bronx.
if, he had been kept in prison that child would not have existed hence never been killed. animals like this don't deserve to be let out. ever.

[got tonkaed]

As usual before i attempt to make a counterargument to beezer im left wondering whether i should or whether or not i should just bite my tounge.

Part of the reason that issues like these bother me to a degree is because they tend to be very easy issues to peghole into certain stances. Beezer you have stated that your stance is essentially the christian stance, now i know you dont believe that every christian believes this the same way as you, so i wont accuse you of it.

To tangent for perhaps just a moment. As a former believer, i am often disconcerted by an christian (no matter their stance on any issue) claiming that non-believers (or perhaps even different believers) as not reading the bible correctly. Having read the bible, yes all of it, cover to cover, it would be very easy to formulate numerous positions on different issues from a variety of different stances. The bible is a book with a lot of different social messages, and its easy for a variety of thinkers to come at conclusions for different perspectives.

Somewhat back on topic, but somewhat tangentially still....This is where i have a problem with this notion of any christian stance (or more generally any ideologically firm stance that one attaches to a group). In this case, as a believer, beezer you are compelled to believe that divine authority helps shape your interpreation of what the proper stance is on capital punishment. I dont mean to put words in your mouth, but by obtaining your position from a book that you believe to be divinely inspired, you have to believe on some level that God has helped to influence this position. Therefore, if you do not hold the proper position its not a stretch to believe that one is disobeying the proper understanding of God. As a nonbeliever, i have no problem looking to the bible as a source of insight on an issue, for the simple reason that i am unencumbered by divine expectation- if i use a stance with particular evidence, im not defying a God i dont believe in.

As you can hopefully see, when we attribute our positions to deeper ideological significances, we are very inflexible and often dangerously so. Though i in the majority of cases do not support capital punishment (for a variety of reason, with one of the simpler ones being i just dont believe its the right thing to do) i could under teh right circumstances with different understandings change my position, and still sleep at night. Would one who is encumbered by divine expectation be able to do the same? I have my doubts.

[jay_a2j]

people who kill others, abuse/kill children, rape & kill women. can not be rehabilitated.
I also think these criminals should not be isolated they should be put into the general population.

You can't let these criminals in with general population. There would be far more violence in prison then there already is. The ratio of prisoner to prison guard is overwhelmingly in favor of the prisoner. Where I work there is 225 guards (this is for all 3 shifts.... so you have less then 100 guards in the prison at any given time and with days off and vacations that number shrinks to like 50 per shift) and around 900 inmates who are there 24 hours a day.


And you must not forget the "lifers" have nothing to lose in starting a riot. Which is another reason to keep them isolated.

[beezer]

Beezer you have stated that your stance is essentially the christian stance, now i know you dont believe that every christian believes this the same way as you, so i wont accuse you of it.

I didn't quote your entire post, but I did read it.

The point I am trying to make is that we all have our biases. You even started a thread on the subject. What happened, it soon turned into an argument about how stupid Christians are for taking their positions. This same guy came over here to this thread to say how "stupid" we are instead of arguing his points.

There are people here who obviously have not taken the time to read the Bible, but say that they do. For someone who has taken the time to read the Bible, it is obvious to see that they obviously haven't done so. They make general statements about forgiveness without addressing the points about punishment and justice. If I wanted to, I could probably edit what I wanted to out of Mein Kampf and make Adolf Hitler look like a good guy.

People here who disagree with me are making some good points. But when people like HeavyCola make comments about capital punishment being Un-Christian, that shows me that he has actually not read the Bible. You can't even get out of Genesis before the topic of capital punishment is covered at least twice. You don't have to be a great theologian to discover it...it's in the very first book of the Bible!

It is true that other Christians take a different stance than mine, but I think that's because they don't actually believe the Bible to be true. Instead, they look at the Bible as a moral compass or guide.

All I'm saying to some people here is stop pretending to know something about a book that you don't believe in in the first place. It's silly.

[heavycola]

well, it is weird to me that so many american xians are pro-death penalty.

There is a fantastic documentary by Errol Morris called the Thin Blue Line. He lets all his participants do the talking, he never interjects, or edits unscrupulously - and what the film does show is a terrible miscarriage of justice. A cop was shot in cold blood, the convicted man on death row is innocent - but the police wanted a death sentence no matter what and went ahead with the prosecution. (I highly recommend you watch it, both as a warning and as a film). The film was instrumental in overturning the conviction, but what if it hadn't been made?
Is the odd fatal miscarriage of justice a worthwhile price to pay for the killing of actual murderers?
Why not set an example? Why not be the bigger man/woman?

Say what you want about deterrence or justice - the death sentence is about satisfying the urge for vengeance, and no i don't see how that ties in with jesus' teachings.

Here are the figures for known state executions around the world in 205 (figures from Amnesty):

1. CHINA (At least 1,770 Executions)
2. IRAN (At least 94)
3. SAUDI ARABIA (At least 86)
4. UNITED STATES (60)
5. Pakistan (31)


Now that is some pretty shitty company to be keeping in terms of human rights. The US is slap bang in the middle of three nastily hardline muslim countries not known for their sense of justice.
Might be good info for your paper, man:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article ... #interexec

BTW beezer:

People here who disagree with me are making some good points. But when people like HeavyCola make comments about capital punishment being Un-Christian, that shows me that he has actually not read the Bible. You can't even get out of Genesis before the topic of capital punishment is covered at least twice. You don't have to be a great theologian to discover it...it's in the very first book of the Bible!

BECAUSE YOU PICK AND CHOOSE TOO. Leviticus says it is a sin to cut yoru hair, to wear different kinds of cloth at once... but you disregard that. 'The NT is the new covenant', is the rejoinder i hear most. So which is it? Love thy neighbour? By frying him with elecrticity? It's barbaric, and in an elementary way you are as bad as the muslim extremists claiming their actions are justified by the koran.

[beezer]

well, it is weird to me that so many american xians are pro-death penalty.

See what I mean. It's ok if you want to argue against the death penalty from another source. But he finds it weird that we believe in capital punishment. Perhaps it's because we've actually taken the time to read the Bible. There's no substitute for reading the source itself.

[heavycola]

read my edit. BTW I have read, in my lifetime, abotu 60-70% of the bible. Went to religious schools.

[nagerous]

luns101 Posted: 18 Apr 2007 16:08 Post subject: Goodness gracious

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nagerous wrote:
capital punishment is a form of murder, so when the innocent guy dies even if you thought he was guilty under most of your assanine beliefs should the executor be killed? theres a paradox for you....

you guys are so stupid, you claim to be christians yet isnt the christian thing to do is to forgive and allow the individual to repent for his sins, yet nooo you have to kill the guy don't you. just like the majority of christians you're hypocritical and happy as long as you can have what you want. the world is a complex place and these crazy conservative notions drive me mad.

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Michael Dukakis called, he would like his talking points back.

whos Michael Dukakis, never heard of him

[got tonkaed]

personally beezer i think at times you are a bit too quick to point out people are attacking christianity. Certainly there are different levels of intent, but i would argue that pretty much every thread we have on here one side attacks the other throughout the elucidation of their points (except for me of course, i would never stoop to such a level (please note the sarcasm)). I dont think that in many cases the bashing is quite so bad. Nor do i think that heavy is out of line here, one can understand where an individual gets a belief from and still find the belief weird. As im sure eventually there will be a thread about such a thing, I am probably in the minority in that i dont believe life begins at conception. I understand the variety of sources one could draw on to have such a belief, and i still find the belief to be a little odd. Its not an attack i dont feel, but i am kinda hijacking at this point so ill stop.

[heavycola]

thank you for that contribution. (sorry tonkaed i was talking to the guy who doesn;t know who dukakis is)

I am reposting this for beezer, the kid who believes god wants us to execute criminals.

BTW beezer:

People here who disagree with me are making some good points. But when people like HeavyCola make comments about capital punishment being Un-Christian, that shows me that he has actually not read the Bible. You can't even get out of Genesis before the topic of capital punishment is covered at least twice. You don't have to be a great theologian to discover it...it's in the very first book of the Bible!

BECAUSE YOU PICK AND CHOOSE TOO. Leviticus says it is a sin to cut yoru hair, to wear different kinds of cloth at once... but you disregard that. 'The NT is the new covenant', is the rejoinder i hear most. So which is it? Love thy neighbour? By frying him with elecrticity? It's barbaric, and in an elementary way you are as bad as the muslim extremists claiming their actions are justified by the koran.

[beezer]

read my edit. BTW I have read, in my lifetime, abotu 60-70% of the bible. Went to religious schools.

I did read it. You're points are well taken. My problem is when you start saying that you are surprised that American Christians are pro death penalty. If you've really read 60-70% of the Bible then how could you be surprised that we believe that way?

Was your religious school Catholic?

[heavycola]

read my edit. BTW I have read, in my lifetime, abotu 60-70% of the bible. Went to religious schools.

I did read it. You're points are well taken. My problem is when you start saying that you are surprised that American Christians are pro death penalty. If you've really read 60-70% of the Bible then how could you be surprised that we believe that way?

Was your religious school Catholic?

no, church of england. Sorry.

SO then - tell me you don't cherrypick from your book. Or tell me why wearing different kinds of cloth is OK even though god said it wasn't.

As the stats show, people like you and the iranian state have a lot in common really