[Official] NBC Mafia Town Win MVP=trinicardinal

[dazza2008]

Leitz, all of what you say here is crazy really. I was willing to hammer all the way through.

You make it look like I was backing down and not wanting to hammer, but in fact I was responding to what the majority wanted. If you just quote what I say it can look like I wanted to back out but read the thread again and you will see it is not the case.

I think you are scum and knew the heat was turning your way with Strike's claim so you took this weak case and tried to make it look like something it is not.

[Leitz]

Dazza, you might say that now, but I quoted most of your posts and as it shows I got the impression you stood up and then held back. That's the way I see it. If it turns out to be wrong, I'll accept my mistake. There is nothing wrong with outing suspicions, right?

I do believe though it is easy for the mafia to jump on my case now that some people have FOSed me. So I'll keep an eye on this!

[jonty125]

Dazza, you might say that now, but I quoted most of your posts and as it shows I got the impression you stood up and then held back. That's the way I see it. If it turns out to be wrong, I'll accept my mistake. There is nothing wrong with outing suspicions, right?

I do believe though it is easy for the mafia to jump on my case now that some people have FOSed me. So I'll keep an eye on this!

Did you just super skim dazza's last post. FOS Leitz for a weak case on dazza then failing to respond to the defense (still think trini is slightly more suspicious but I wouldn't mind lynching either of 'em).

[betiko]

Dazza, you might say that now, but I quoted most of your posts and as it shows I got the impression you stood up and then held back. That's the way I see it. If it turns out to be wrong, I'll accept my mistake. There is nothing wrong with outing suspicions, right?

I do believe though it is easy for the mafia to jump on my case now that some people have FOSed me. So I'll keep an eye on this!

I don't really like that last phrase; basically if anyone here has any suspicion on you it means they are suspicious?

I don't know about Dazza.. the deadline would ve really been night time for europeans and we had no choice but to go to bed and wait for the next morning to see what the americans did. I do believe that he went to bed and had no intention or possibility to unvote if chap didn't hammer. he put himself in a tough spot there for a scum.
On the other hand, chap could not have not hammered. Or he could, if he had a power role willing to claim today; and was waiting for a scum to put rodion at l-1 and trap him. but that is a too big stunt and chap would've taken too many risks, not even being sure a mafia would've put rodion at l-1.
Now that I think about it; was there really any scenario that could've lead dazza not to hammer??

[betiko]

ebwop: sorry, I meant "
Now that I think about it; was there really any scenario that could've lead chap not to hammer??"

In other words, did Dazza really take the risk of hammering? if you calculate the thing, there was kind of no viable reason why chap could've not hammered? if chap didn't hammer rodion, he kind of would've doomed himself for no good reason don't you guys think?

On the other hand I did have a moment when I thought that chap might not be doing it, as he waited for the very last moment..

[strike wolf]

Yeah really not buying the leitz case on Dazza.

Some general thoughts. I read back through and while I'm still suspicious of jonty, I don't have any solid case I can pin him to right now. I find Epitaph somewhat scummy as it seems he switched around his position on Rodion but not sure it worth pursuing. Trini has dropped some possible scum tells but also appears active and has done some of tthe more helpful analyses of player behavior. Chap and betiko appear to be town and I also have that mob is town. I don't really feel there is a case to be made on MeDeFe as of right now, he's not the most active but on day 3 I would expect better reasoning for voting him. So Leitz seems to still be the best target in my eyes and in the interest of progressing the day:

vote leitz

[strike wolf]

As far as set up. It does not appear we have an SK and 4 mafia in a 16 player game with no SK seems a bit on the high side especially if Santa is a potential third party. My theory is the set up may be like one of the following:

12 town vs 3 mafia (w/santa as 3rd party)
13 town vs 3 mafia
11 town vs 4 mafia (w/Santa as 3rd party)
OR
12 town vs. 4 mafia with some interesting balancing factors.

The last one seems less likely but Safari has used unconventional set ups in the past to balance otherwise unbalanced numbers. My guess would be either the 12 vs. 3 w/third party or the 11 vs. 4 w/3rd party seems more balanced than the other two set ups. I will say though if we are dealing with 4 mafia than on top of the unknown roles we probably have a second but less important protective role so we may not be as screwed over in the power roles department as we think.

[Leitz]

@ jonty: what does super skim mean?
@ betiko: I'm just saying that because some of you are targeting me because of lack of anything better, it is possible that some mafia will play along and accuse me (=bandwagoning) hence staying 'under the radar'.
@ strike: after going through D2 I too had some supsicion on jonty & Epitaph, but not anything in particular. It's more gut feeling than anything else..

[betiko]

@ jonty: what does super skim mean?
@ betiko: I'm just saying that because some of you are targeting me because of lack of anything better, it is possible that some mafia will play along and accuse me (=bandwagoning) hence staying 'under the radar'.
@ strike: after going through D2 I too had some supsicion on jonty & Epitaph, but not anything in particular. It's more gut feeling than anything else..

the thing is that we don't have really anything tangible on anyone right now. we can only clear out completely strike and jimfinn; all the rest of us are potential suspects at different levels and we all have different opinions about each other. Targeting someone because we didn't have anything better is what we have been doing all game.
Not having any feedback from jimfinn after last night really sucks; not having any feedback from the watcher as well. we just have to start from scratch again from assumptions. now why not you leitz?
As I said before, leitz and jonty are the 2 guys I have the least opinion about. even if you are bringing much more to the game leitz on this day 3 than before. I don't know if this is just plain vanilla flavour or not..

Epitaph I don't know, he has been doing quite a lot of interesting comments for town during the first half of day 2 in my opinion, then he's been less active, we'll see.

Pancake will have the difficult task to read all this and to reincarnate a player that was very high on my suspect list.

chapcrap... after some rethoughts, I still don't fully get his move... he sure wins some credit by doing what he said he would, but he didn't really have the choice not to, after all he said before and after the rodion claim. what if rodion really turned out bomb??? 0-2 if guessed completely wrong killing including himself; 0-1 if rodion is town but isn't the bomb (nobody really bought that); 1-0 if guessed right? on a scum perspective, it's 1-1 if unlucky, 1-0 if lucky +town credit. Chap has had to answer a lot to that. It could still be a good move from a mafia perspective to win town credit. if you lose well, you still killed the bomb that could've been a real pain for mafia. better kill him ASAP instead of having it busdriven or whatever to perform night kills (all other mobs still being alive so 1 acceptable loss for the cause)... and if it's a fake bombclaim well you've just killed 2 birds with one stone.
Now, could chap be a power role? the answer should be no. a power role would ve reacted like strike. do we risk uncovering a power role by pressuring chap? I see no reason for this. The problem is that if we make chap claim; he will claim VT no matter what his alignment is! so I don't know what to do with all this; probably keep it for day 4.

[strike wolf]

I think you're overthinking the chap part. There's really no reason to think rodion would fake claim bomb as town as the move itself was a bad move so mafia would have no reason to suspect it was a fake.

[trinicardinal]

Dazza, you might say that now, but I quoted most of your posts and as it shows I got the impression you stood up and then held back. That's the way I see it. If it turns out to be wrong, I'll accept my mistake. There is nothing wrong with outing suspicions, right?

I do believe though it is easy for the mafia to jump on my case now that some people have FOSed me. So I'll keep an eye on this!

Did you just super skim dazza's last post. FOS Leitz for a weak case on dazza then failing to respond to the defense (still think trini is slightly more suspicious but I wouldn't mind lynching either of 'em).

Tell me, Why am I more suspicious? Because I understood strike's claim? wow - that is suspicious or is it because I listed you as one of the possible suspects for mafia?

[MoB Deadly]

Jim hasn't answered this yet has he? Truly any information Jim has could help us.

Jim, was there any flavour to your roleblock or were you just told that you were blocked?

I really don't know where to go today... No one has really stoodout on my scumdar so far. What isn't helping, is that our confirmed townies aren't giving their opinions.

This is Swifte's last post on Dec. 20th, Can we please have him prodded?

Good point betiko, it makes more sense for us to force our hammer to submit the vote for the majority lynch than to depend on him being the last to vote and not chickening out or screwing us over before the deadline.

If I had to make an opinion now, I think that Leitz or Medefe seem the scummiest, but not by much. I think I would like to hear from PCM to see if fresh eyes can pick out anything that stands out before I cast my vote.

[Swifte]

lol!

[strike wolf]

*puts on doctor clothes since the actual doctor is dead. Takes pulse*

Swifte, time of death end of night 2.

[MoB Deadly]

Oh.. shit.. whoops... rofl... sorry I am off my game

[jimfinn]

I was only told that I was roleblocked. No flavor or other information was given. Sadly.

[pancakemix]

Pancake will have the difficult task to read all this and to reincarnate a player that was very high on my suspect list.

Always a good sign.

Well, as far as that goes, I can say nothing in shield's defense. No other person I know has ever had such an aptitude for finding ways to screw himself up. I think other, more experienced voices would agree. He's on at least one foe list in this forum for his antics, I know for sure.

Now, on to game matters. As I was reading, this post kinda caught my attention.

Unvote Vote BG his defence has not sounded convincing to me and he sounds frustrated at being noticed so early. This case is a lot stronger than the betiko case. As BG said someone needs to get pressured and I think he is the best candidate for that now.

Two things about this post struck me as kind of odd:

1. Reasoning. It's pretty meh. "I wasn't convinced" and "It's stronger than the other case" don't mean anything (unless "stronger" means "has more votes on it", in which case that says quite a bit, now doesn't it?). These are just generic things to say about a vote to make it sound reasonable, and serve to keep the vote coming in for that person (and indirectly, that's what ended up getting BG lynched, following the Swifte diversion).

2. Placement. It's about fourth or fifth, which is well within the range of the "wagon window", as it were. This fits in pretty much with what I was saying with trying to get the votes rolling in.

Of course, dazza immediately backs off as soon as BG claims (despite the VT claim and with no source knowledge):

unvote I believe BG's claim. I have not seen the film but did a search to see what there was. It seems there has to be characters that are less common as there seems not to be too many. I found the one BG claimed and I can't see why he would not be VT.

..and latches immediately onto the next case that starts gaining some steam:

As far as trying to slip in to the background, I'm still right here, answering questions, and standing by my opinions untill I hear something better.

Well not really pal. You never commented on what chap and drunkmonkey said. You have been very non-commital and do seem to be trying to look helpful without saying alot. This seems like the best case to me right now as I have already stated my reasons for believing BG's claim so vote Swifte

...by not even making an effort to rehash things other people said:

I think not only has Swifte been non-committal, but even in his case against BG, he uses a lot of words but doesn't really say a whole lot.

Again, backs off as soon after a claim.

unvote

Granted, it's the doc this time, but are you seeing a pattern here? Because it happened again with jimfinn.

Vote Jimfinn I find it very suspicious he only comes on when he recieved a vote and when he did he said nothing really. Seems he just wanted to appear active without getting involved.

unvote

So what I'm seeing here is a follow-the-leader game of trying to seem helpful and just riding the wave. That's scum play at its most basic.

As for the offering to hammer on the bomb, I'm calling shenanigans. Chap had already offered to hammer, so why bother saying you'd do it? Either you were skimming and didn't see the offer/request for him to claim or you were just trying to make yourself seem like a good little townie in a waving your arms and making lots of noise shouting "LOOK AT ME I'M TOWN!!!!1!!", and that's not something a townie would do.

Vote dazza

ADDENDUM BEFORE POST: I wrote all of that before I reached lietz' case. I disagree with his assertion that dazza was flip-flopping, but I'll say he was either confident he wouldn't get blown up or confident he wouldn't be hammering.

And while I'm on that, I'm thinking Rodion's PM probably said he was a bomb to cause exactly the scenario that occurred.

[dazza2008]

Pancake will have the difficult task to read all this and to reincarnate a player that was very high on my suspect list.

Always a good sign.

Well, as far as that goes, I can say nothing in shield's defense. No other person I know has ever had such an aptitude for finding ways to screw himself up. I think other, more experienced voices would agree. He's on at least one foe list in this forum for his antics, I know for sure.

Now, on to game matters. As I was reading, this post kinda caught my attention.

Unvote Vote BG his defence has not sounded convincing to me and he sounds frustrated at being noticed so early. This case is a lot stronger than the betiko case. As BG said someone needs to get pressured and I think he is the best candidate for that now.

Two things about this post struck me as kind of odd:

1. Reasoning. It's pretty meh. "I wasn't convinced" and "It's stronger than the other case" don't mean anything (unless "stronger" means "has more votes on it", in which case that says quite a bit, now doesn't it?). These are just generic things to say about a vote to make it sound reasonable, and serve to keep the vote coming in for that person (and indirectly, that's what ended up getting BG lynched, following the Swifte diversion).

2. Placement. It's about fourth or fifth, which is well within the range of the "wagon window", as it were. This fits in pretty much with what I was saying with trying to get the votes rolling in.

Of course, dazza immediately backs off as soon as BG claims (despite the VT claim and with no source knowledge):

unvote I believe BG's claim. I have not seen the film but did a search to see what there was. It seems there has to be characters that are less common as there seems not to be too many. I found the one BG claimed and I can't see why he would not be VT.

I unvoted BG because I know how he plays. We play mafia in our clan forum and from his game play I would never expect him to claim VT if he was scum on day 1. He would try something else in an attempt to survive. Scum claiming VT would normally get lynched.

..and latches immediately onto the next case that starts gaining some steam:

As far as trying to slip in to the background, I'm still right here, answering questions, and standing by my opinions untill I hear something better.

Well not really pal. You never commented on what chap and drunkmonkey said. You have been very non-commital and do seem to be trying to look helpful without saying alot. This seems like the best case to me right now as I have already stated my reasons for believing BG's claim so vote Swifte

...by not even making an effort to rehash things other people said:

I think not only has Swifte been non-committal, but even in his case against BG, he uses a lot of words but doesn't really say a whole lot.

Again, backs off as soon after a claim.

unvote

Granted, it's the doc this time, but are you seeing a pattern here? Because it happened again with jimfinn.

Vote Jimfinn I find it very suspicious he only comes on when he recieved a vote and when he did he said nothing really. Seems he just wanted to appear active without getting involved.

unvote

So what I'm seeing here is a follow-the-leader game of trying to seem helpful and just riding the wave. That's scum play at its most basic.

I did hop about from case to case. I never saw anything I could build a stronger case on so I joined in on the case I believed to be the strongest at the time. We never had a lot to go on so what do you want me to do? Just sit here doing nothing?

As for the offering to hammer on the bomb, I'm calling shenanigans. Chap had already offered to hammer, so why bother saying you'd do it? Either you were skimming and didn't see the offer/request for him to claim or you were just trying to make yourself seem like a good little townie in a waving your arms and making lots of noise shouting "LOOK AT ME I'M TOWN!!!!1!!", and that's not something a townie would do.

Vote dazza

ADDENDUM BEFORE POST: I wrote all of that before I reached lietz' case. I disagree with his assertion that dazza was flip-flopping, but I'll say he was either confident he wouldn't get blown up or confident he wouldn't be hammering.

And while I'm on that, I'm thinking Rodion's PM probably said he was a bomb to cause exactly the scenario that occurred.

How on earth could I be confident I would not be blown up? If I was scum I would not have got involved.

Also how could I be confident Chap was going to hammer? I was in bed when the deadline passed and there is no way of me knowing chap would even be online. The only way I could be 100% sure he would hammer is if we were multis and he is in USA and I am in Scotland so thats not likely is it?

This whole case seems like scum trying to take off of a scum-mate.

[Leitz]

I did hop about from case to case. I never saw anything I could build a stronger case on so I joined in on the case I believed to be the strongest at the time. We never had a lot to go on so what do you want me to do? Just sit here doing nothing?

So you admit to bandwagoning?

About the chap hammering thing, chap has been one of the most active players in this game. Expecting him to cast that last vote does seem reasonable.

Like some said, we need more information on who is scum. That is why we need to bring up potential cases, get additional information and try to corner the mafia. Town already lost 4 players, it is time to get some mafia lynched!

[dazza2008]

I did hop about from case to case. I never saw anything I could build a stronger case on so I joined in on the case I believed to be the strongest at the time. We never had a lot to go on so what do you want me to do? Just sit here doing nothing?

So you admit to bandwagoning?

About the chap hammering thing, chap has been one of the most active players in this game. Expecting him to cast that last vote does seem reasonable.

Like some said, we need more information on who is scum. That is why we need to bring up potential cases, get additional information and try to corner the mafia. Town already lost 4 players, it is time to get some mafia lynched!

I suppose you could call it bandwagoning. I would say I was putting pressure on the player who I believed to be the scummiest.

I really did expect Chap to come in and hammer but how could I have ever been 100% sure? Would I take that risk if I was scum?

His internet could have been down or some kind of emergency could have prevented him from getting online on time. There are 1000s of things that could have happened and you think I am scum and risked that.

[Leitz]

You're never going to be 100% sure, as long as you don't know that person personally (which I don't believe). But sometimes scum takes bold moves to put themselves in favor of town. This might just be one of them, like you confirmed: you never expected chap not to hammer.

[strike wolf]

The points brought up against dazza are interesting. As far as his counter-argument about how he couldn't be sure that chap would hammer. It's accurate as far as he couldn't guarantee it but if chap did not hammer, the blame would not have fallen on Dazza but Chap. Dazza would not have received any criticism for Chap's failure to hammer.

[MoB Deadly]

Interesting points PCM. I am not completely sold on the Dazza case though. I had some suspicions about him BEFORE the "bomb claim", about posting only one liners and hopping from case to case. I think Leitz brought that point up as well. However after the bomb, he also claimed that he would be willing to hammer the "bomb". That gave me points in my eyes because we used a FOS system to determine the hammer, it was in our control.

So why do people keep saying it was going to be chap to hammer no matter what? The power was in our hands after they both volunteered, all it needed was us to fos Dazza not Chap. Plus I DO believe there was a big risk, being the L-2 vote. Chap could of chickened out, in hopes that if he didn't vote, it would blow up on Dazza who could be potential scum.

And again, Leitz piggy backs off PCM's case and uses

I did hop about from case to case. I never saw anything I could build a stronger case on so I joined in on the case I believed to be the strongest at the time. We never had a lot to go on so what do you want me to do? Just sit here doing nothing?

So you admit to bandwagoning?

About the chap hammering thing, chap has been one of the most active players in this game. Expecting him to cast that last vote does seem reasonable.

Like some said, we need more information on who is scum. That is why we need to bring up potential cases, get additional information and try to corner the mafia. Town already lost 4 players, it is time to get some mafia lynched!

You're never going to be 100% sure, as long as you don't know that person personally (which I don't believe). But sometimes scum takes bold moves to put themselves in favor of town. This might just be one of them, like you confirmed: you never expected chap not to hammer.

Like I said before, the decision was ours who to FOS for the hammer. I don't think we can blame that part of it on him. AND he was at L-2, which I do believe is a risk, because the power was 100% in chaps hands on whether or not he wanted to cast the hammer. He could of just waited and risked the "bomb" killing dazza, but I think Chap knew that would end up with him getting lynched today.


vote leitz


fastposted by strike

[Leitz]

Interesting points PCM. I am not completely sold on the Dazza case though. I had some suspicions about him BEFORE the "bomb claim", about posting only one liners and hopping from case to case. I think Leitz brought that point up as well. However after the bomb, he also claimed that he would be willing to hammer the "bomb". That gave me points in my eyes because we used a FOS system to determine the hammer, it was in our control.

So why do people keep saying it was going to be chap to hammer no matter what? The power was in our hands after they both volunteered, all it needed was us to fos Dazza not Chap. Plus I DO believe there was a big risk, being the L-2 vote. Chap could of chickened out, in hopes that if he didn't vote, it would blow up on Dazza who could be potential scum.

And again, Leitz piggy backs off PCM's case and uses

This is what I'm trying to say: he claimed he was willing to hammer AFTER chap already claimed. By showing this willingness he was trying to get brownie points from the rest of us, in which he clearly succeeded with you. I agree, the hammer was in our control, but somehow if you read over D2 there never was any doubt that chap wasn't the one who would be chosen to hammer. Why? Maybe because he said he was wanting too immediately after the claim. At the time of the hammering, there was no real suspicion on dazza and if chap would've chickened out he would only put himself in the spotlight on D3. I honestly don't believe chap would've chickened out in any way.

Oh yeah, piggy back? PCM made a case about dazza and I just reacted to dazzas reaction on that case. How is that piggy back riding when I already showed my FOS to dazza!?

I did hop about from case to case. I never saw anything I could build a stronger case on so I joined in on the case I believed to be the strongest at the time. We never had a lot to go on so what do you want me to do? Just sit here doing nothing?

So you admit to bandwagoning?

About the chap hammering thing, chap has been one of the most active players in this game. Expecting him to cast that last vote does seem reasonable.

Like some said, we need more information on who is scum. That is why we need to bring up potential cases, get additional information and try to corner the mafia. Town already lost 4 players, it is time to get some mafia lynched!

So you don't want mafia to be lynched?

You're never going to be 100% sure, as long as you don't know that person personally (which I don't believe). But sometimes scum takes bold moves to put themselves in favor of town. This might just be one of them, like you confirmed: you never expected chap not to hammer.

Like I said before, the decision was ours who to FOS for the hammer. I don't think we can blame that part of it on him. AND he was at L-2, which I do believe is a risk, because the power was 100% in chaps hands on whether or not he wanted to cast the hammer. He could of just waited and risked the "bomb" killing dazza, but I think Chap knew that would end up with him getting lynched today.


vote leitz


fastposted by strike

Dazza stayed under the radar in D2. Chap claimed a lot action towards him which made us forget about dazza. Plus, the FOS never really got going if you ask me..

[jonty125]

Dazza, you might say that now, but I quoted most of your posts and as it shows I got the impression you stood up and then held back. That's the way I see it. If it turns out to be wrong, I'll accept my mistake. There is nothing wrong with outing suspicions, right?

I do believe though it is easy for the mafia to jump on my case now that some people have FOSed me. So I'll keep an eye on this!

Did you just super skim dazza's last post. FOS Leitz for a weak case on dazza then failing to respond to the defense (still think trini is slightly more suspicious but I wouldn't mind lynching either of 'em).

Tell me, Why am I more suspicious? Because I understood strike's claim? wow - that is suspicious or is it because I listed you as one of the possible suspects for mafia?

Well after he had made it pretty obvious he was softclaiming some form of beneficial role and then when he adds v. little to it you understand - I find strange at best.