[Official] NBC Mafia Town Win MVP=trinicardinal

[trinicardinal]

I pretty much agree about what trini says.
I still want to stick to jimfinn's fos thing rather than asking dazza or chap to hammer.

And I think medefe is right; you should stop talking for a while rodion! If you are the bomb, it's not doing you/us any favour.
You say things a bit pretentious (even if they are not totally wrong) that might just excite even more people on your case as retaliation.
Your inverted psychology technique worked the oposite for me; as I was one of the guys supporting you the most and I thought it was odd to ask chapcrap and strike to kill you so bad, on top of the bomb claim being perfect for a scum.
I saw it either as:
-"come explode on me, i'm the bomb and i'm sure you 2 are scum"
-"i'm scum and by claiming bomb I can over act the bomb guy that wants townies-i-pretend-to-see-as-scum to explode on me as they won't do it, ready to overbluff them"

I also thought that you could not be certain both strike and chap would be scum at the same time. So this whole move remains odd to me, the inverted psychology explanation doens't fit completely in my understanding.

Now there is something you've said that kind of makes me read between lines in a good way, putting you in a certain situation that would explain certain things. I only think you said that because you know. Unfortunately it's not the type of things you can talk about openly here... but I might be wrong and you might have said it to make us believe something.


on another hand, the clown does look like a bomb! lol

You know something has been bothering me for a while and it just kinda clicked a bit with betiko's post. From what we've seen so far there is a certain amount of fit between the roles and the characters.

Mayor -Town Cop
DR. Finklestein - Town Doc
Devil - VT
Creature under stairs - VT

Clown - BOMB ?

What role does the clown play in the movie to fit in with bomb (aside from looking like one) can someone help me with this one?

[dazza2008]

Even if the clown does fit with bomb what would it matter? Would the mafia not have been given fakeclaims?

[betiko]

this clown is useless in the movie; you would ve asked me i would ve said a VT role.

jack, sally and zero are the "major characters" missing
Igor could be another another character; the 3 kids and oogie boogie should be mafia. i think all 3 kids shouldn't have any special role and oogie boogie is probably a bad ass godfather with lots of powers..
I still think santa claws should be a survivor or any other neutral role like that

and dazza; yes probably but still, we don't have much and we can always try to find some kind of pattern somewhere..

[chapcrap]

The more I think about it, the more I do not think we should use the FOS system. We are allowing Rodion (the person we want to lynch) to dictate what we are doing with the lynch. He is directing us toward strike...I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with letting Rodion be the voice and driving force behind this when we are trying to lynch him. That said, just let me hammer him!

FOS chapcrap

About the flavor/roles, I still haven't seen the movie. So, I know nothing. However, I think that mafia were given fake claims, so I'm sure the clown/bomb is real or a fake claim. So, it fits. And when you look at the clown, I think bomb, based on how he looks.

[betiko]

The more I think about it, the more I do not think we should use the FOS system. We are allowing Rodion (the person we want to lynch) to dictate what we are doing with the lynch. He is directing us toward strike...I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with letting Rodion be the voice and driving force behind this when we are trying to lynch him. That said, just let me hammer him!

FOS chapcrap

About the flavor/roles, I still haven't seen the movie. So, I know nothing. However, I think that mafia were given fake claims, so I'm sure the clown/bomb is real or a fake claim. So, it fits. And when you look at the clown, I think bomb, based on how he looks.

YOU want to lynch him, but looks like most of us think there is a good probability he is telling the truth. you seem a bit too sure of yourself that your move will not result in a double kill for town.
either you are really fed up of this day 2 and don't want to give it more tweeks, or you are a lyncher or something similar and rodion is your target.. or a mafia that just wants to look good, but i think more of the lyncher thing..

[chapcrap]

The more I think about it, the more I do not think we should use the FOS system. We are allowing Rodion (the person we want to lynch) to dictate what we are doing with the lynch. He is directing us toward strike...I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with letting Rodion be the voice and driving force behind this when we are trying to lynch him. That said, just let me hammer him!

FOS chapcrap

About the flavor/roles, I still haven't seen the movie. So, I know nothing. However, I think that mafia were given fake claims, so I'm sure the clown/bomb is real or a fake claim. So, it fits. And when you look at the clown, I think bomb, based on how he looks.

YOU want to lynch him, but looks like most of us think there is a good probability he is telling the truth. you seem a bit too sure of yourself that your move will not result in a double kill for town.
either you are really fed up of this day 2 and don't want to give it more tweeks, or you are a lyncher or something similar and rodion is your target.. or a mafia that just wants to look good, but i think more of the lyncher thing..

This

[MeDeFe]

If Rodion is scum he might also have been given "Clown with a tear-away face - Vanilla Townie" as his fakeclaim and simply changed the last part to Town Bomb for greater effect. At any rate there's no realistic chance that mafia will have been given a readymade fakeclaim that's identical with a character that any real town player has been assigned. The clown could be seen to fit with the bomb role, or it could be seen to fit with VT. Other than very rare instances, like Dr. Finkelstein being the doc, I don't think that very many conclusions about the role in this game can be drawn from the character in the movie, especially when it comes to relatively minor characters. I would suggest we drop that line of speculation.


I've slept on it a bit, and I'm fairly convinced that Rodion is a bomb, probably even town. If he isn't, he overplayed his hand big time. It would have been easy to put him at L-1 and wait for chapcrap to hammer, the entire discussion would've died with Rodion.

I can see the sense in getting someone we think is scummy to hammer Rodion if we also think he is scummy, but that he might be telling the truth. However, that discussion should NOT be held under the premise that two people must die this day, and that one of them is definitely Rodion. If we do that the entire discussion becomes tainted because people can legitimately have different opinions about which specific course of action is most beneficial for town. Those differences of opinion, which frankly are irrelevant to the larger question of who's scummy and who's not, can make people suspicious of each other for no good reason.

If we find another candidate for a lynch we can always revisit the question of whether we should make them hammer Rodion or not, but for now I'd say we continue hunting for scum the regular way.

[dazza2008]

If Rodion is scum he might also have been given "Clown with a tear-away face - Vanilla Townie" as his fakeclaim and simply changed the last part to Town Bomb for greater effect. At any rate there's no realistic chance that mafia will have been given a readymade fakeclaim that's identical with a character that any real town player has been assigned. The clown could be seen to fit with the bomb role, or it could be seen to fit with VT. Other than very rare instances, like Dr. Finkelstein being the doc, I don't think that very many conclusions about the role in this game can be drawn from the character in the movie, especially when it comes to relatively minor characters. I would suggest we drop that line of speculation.


I've slept on it a bit, and I'm fairly convinced that Rodion is a bomb, probably even town. If he isn't, he overplayed his hand big time. It would have been easy to put him at L-1 and wait for chapcrap to hammer, the entire discussion would've died with Rodion.

I can see the sense in getting someone we think is scummy to hammer Rodion if we also think he is scummy, but that he might be telling the truth. However, that discussion should NOT be held under the premise that two people must die this day, and that one of them is definitely Rodion. If we do that the entire discussion becomes tainted because people can legitimately have different opinions about which specific course of action is most beneficial for town. Those differences of opinion, which frankly are irrelevant to the larger question of who's scummy and who's not, can make people suspicious of each other for no good reason.

If we find another candidate for a lynch we can always revisit the question of whether we should make them hammer Rodion or not, but for now I'd say we continue hunting for scum the regular way.

So what do you suggest?

I think we have found scum and I think we should lynch him. I am not the only one who thinks this. Seems crazy to me just to leave this to another day. Why not get it dealt with now?

[betiko]

If Rodion is scum he might also have been given "Clown with a tear-away face - Vanilla Townie" as his fakeclaim and simply changed the last part to Town Bomb for greater effect. At any rate there's no realistic chance that mafia will have been given a readymade fakeclaim that's identical with a character that any real town player has been assigned. The clown could be seen to fit with the bomb role, or it could be seen to fit with VT. Other than very rare instances, like Dr. Finkelstein being the doc, I don't think that very many conclusions about the role in this game can be drawn from the character in the movie, especially when it comes to relatively minor characters. I would suggest we drop that line of speculation.


I've slept on it a bit, and I'm fairly convinced that Rodion is a bomb, probably even town. If he isn't, he overplayed his hand big time. It would have been easy to put him at L-1 and wait for chapcrap to hammer, the entire discussion would've died with Rodion.

I can see the sense in getting someone we think is scummy to hammer Rodion if we also think he is scummy, but that he might be telling the truth. However, that discussion should NOT be held under the premise that two people must die this day, and that one of them is definitely Rodion. If we do that the entire discussion becomes tainted because people can legitimately have different opinions about which specific course of action is most beneficial for town. Those differences of opinion, which frankly are irrelevant to the larger question of who's scummy and who's not, can make people suspicious of each other for no good reason.

If we find another candidate for a lynch we can always revisit the question of whether we should make them hammer Rodion or not, but for now I'd say we continue hunting for scum the regular way.

So what do you suggest?

I think we have found scum and I think we should lynch him. I am not the only one who thinks this. Seems crazy to me just to leave this to another day. Why not get it dealt with now?

I think that you, chap, mob and maybe shield and strike seem to be the only ones 100% convinced by this, otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion.
Medefe; what you are saying doesn't really change what is going on here; we are scum hunting like always, the only thing is that before lynching the chosen person, we will discuss wether to make him hammer rodion or not.
now why don't we take everything back from the start and merge FOS and votes lists? We vote for the person we see as scum and then, if we find some sort of agreement at l-2, we discuss the rodion hammering for that person? also, there is swifte who is barely participating and that could be more than useful as he is trusted. can saf prod him? also I m thinking of epitaph, jonty, mob, jimfinn and shield who haven't posted much lately (maybe not in time, but all the rest of us have been posting a lot). if you guys read this, we need your help to get over with this anoying day 2!!
if you guys read this put some input please!

[betiko]

just one thing about the characters: I don't even remember that clown in the movie, as I barely saw "devil", they are just characters you see in the background as "cast" and don't play any role. the creature under the stairs is seen much more (or is it because I found it really creepy and noticed it more?) If I was saf and decided to put a bomb I guess I would've picked this clown; he looks like a bomb toy from the joker or some evil thing like that!
Let's assume rodion is a vanilla townie; I think it's possible that in that case he would fakeclaim and pick a role like the bomb to scare away scums? also claiming VT at that point would've assured a lynch on him!
he says never lie when you claim and you are town, bullcrap! if you claim VT you are dead anyway, why not claim bomb?

[MoB Deadly]

I think that you, chap, mob and maybe shield and strike seem to be the only ones 100% convinced by this, otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion.

I am not saying he should be lynched because he is 100% scum. I think it's more of a 50/50 right now. Honestly, one morning I think he is scum and another I think he's telling the truth, it's really hard to decide.

I believe we must lynch him tonight because:
1) We have all been divided between Strike, Chap, Rodi. They constantly debate for lengths on end, which isn't always a bad thing, but it's causing our votes to be split all the time. This is the first time I have ever seen a debate escalate over such a little thing (a jokevote in another game), and I think its been blown ridiculously out of proportion. I think we need to choose sides now, or they are just going to continue fighting tomorrow
2) I do not want to risk another claim from a power role. We have already outed the doc and the cop (and a possible bomb)

fast posted by betiko
3) The information we receive from Rodion's lynch will be priceless. Whatever he flips, I think we will all have more information to go into tomorrow with to make valuable cases.
4) Cannot waste a night "verifying" he is the bomb, things can get mucked up pretty easily. (He could be GF, there could be a framer, etc etc etc.) If we do get a guilty result, he will just argue his heart out all over again.

This is neither here nor there, but I know Rodion is a great player, I have to make an effort to not just "take his word for it", this bomb claim is right up his alley and a claim that is up to the level of his skill.


Sorry if I have not posted as much as I did. I have certainly been following along, (although kind of frustrated with Rodi's and Strike's traded novels to each other), and I really like what Medefe has to say, I was hoping more of the "less active" players will chime in and give information as well. I think all of the active players talked this out as much as we physically and mentally can, any more we say will just be repeating ourselves for the 4th or 5th or 10th time we need new opnions

I think the FOS system is working, can we continue with it?

[MoB Deadly]

EBWOP

I think that you, chap, mob and maybe shield and strike seem to be the only ones 100% convinced by this, otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion.

I am not saying he should be lynched because he is 100% scum. I think it's more of a 50/50 right now. Honestly, one morning I think he is scum and another I think he's telling the truth, it's really hard to decide.

I believe we must lynch him tonight because:
1) We have all been divided between Strike, Chap, Rodi. They constantly debate for lengths on end, which isn't always a bad thing, but it's causing our votes to be split all the time. This is the first time I have ever seen a debate escalate over such a little thing (a jokevote in another game), and I think its been blown ridiculously out of proportion. I think we need to choose sides now, or they are just going to continue fighting tomorrow
2) I do not want to risk another claim from a power role. We have already outed the doc and the cop (and a possible bomb)

fast posted by betiko
3) The information we receive from Rodion's lynch will be priceless. Whatever he flips, I think we will all have more information to go into tomorrow with to make valuable cases.
4) Cannot waste a night "verifying" he is the bomb, things can get mucked up pretty easily. (He could be GF, there could be a framer, etc etc etc.) If we do get a guilty result, he will just argue his heart out all over again.

This is neither here nor there, but I know Rodion is a great player, I have to make an effort to not just "take his word for it", this bomb claim is right up his alley and a claim that is up to the level of his skill.


Sorry if I have not posted as much as I did. I have certainly been following along, (although kind of frustrated with Rodi's and Strike's traded novels to each other), and I really like what Medefe has to say, I was hoping more of the "less active" players will chime in and give information as well. I think all of the active players talked this out as much as we physically and mentally can, any more we say will just be repeating ourselves for the 4th or 5th or 10th time we need new opnions

I think the FOS system is working, can we continue with it?

dont know why that red line was in the middle of my post, was supposed to be at the bottom

[MoB Deadly]

Let's assume rodion is a vanilla townie; I think it's possible that in that case he would fakeclaim and pick a role like the bomb to scare away scums? also claiming VT at that point would've assured a lynch on him!
he says never lie when you claim and you are town, bullcrap! if you claim VT you are dead anyway, why not claim bomb?

I have debated this before. And from multiple players, they all say town should never ever lie. It would be selfish for him to lie for an attempt to stay in the game, and if it works, he will eventually be caught.

When he is caught, it will be remembered in every other game he plays in, and we will never be able to believe any of his claims, even if we think he is telling the truth.

[betiko]

Let's assume rodion is a vanilla townie; I think it's possible that in that case he would fakeclaim and pick a role like the bomb to scare away scums? also claiming VT at that point would've assured a lynch on him!
he says never lie when you claim and you are town, bullcrap! if you claim VT you are dead anyway, why not claim bomb?

I have debated this before. And from multiple players, they all say town should never ever lie. It would be selfish for him to lie for an attempt to stay in the game, and if it works, he will eventually be caught.

When he is caught, it will be remembered in every other game he plays in, and we will never be able to believe any of his claims, even if we think he is telling the truth.

is this a written rule? fakeclaiming when you are town can be in the benefit of town don't you think? in that case, I would see nothing but benefits for both rodion and town fakeclaiming bomb when he is forced to claim and he is actually vt..
it's a stunt only if there is another bomb, which is pretty much unlikely; if you get caught, you get lynched as well, the only downside is that the true bomb has to counter claim. but then again, there is nothing much the scums can do about the guy who counterclaimed bomb.

[MoB Deadly]

Let's assume rodion is a vanilla townie; I think it's possible that in that case he would fakeclaim and pick a role like the bomb to scare away scums? also claiming VT at that point would've assured a lynch on him!
he says never lie when you claim and you are town, bullcrap! if you claim VT you are dead anyway, why not claim bomb?

I have debated this before. And from multiple players, they all say town should never ever lie. It would be selfish for him to lie for an attempt to stay in the game, and if it works, he will eventually be caught.

When he is caught, it will be remembered in every other game he plays in, and we will never be able to believe any of his claims, even if we think he is telling the truth.

is this a written rule? fakeclaiming when you are town can be in the benefit of town don't you think? in that case, I would see nothing but benefits for both rodion and town fakeclaiming bomb when he is forced to claim and he is actually vt..
it's a stunt only if there is another bomb, which is pretty much unlikely; if you get caught, you get lynched as well, the only downside is that the true bomb has to counter claim. but then again, there is nothing much the scums can do about the guy who counterclaimed bomb.

This is the source:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _All_Liars

The reason being, If rodion was a vanilla townie:
1) What if we decided to keep him alive, tehre could be bussers trying to bus them with a mafia target, doctors may try to heal him, players aren't always predictable with night actions. And if we found out LATER we were using valuable powers helping this fake claimed bomb, town would be in a worse position than if he just got lynched as a vanilla townie.

Plus that would discredit Rodions reputation in all other CC mafias. If we played anonymously, it may be more debatable.

[trinicardinal]

I think that you, chap, mob and maybe shield and strike seem to be the only ones 100% convinced by this, otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion.

I am not saying he should be lynched because he is 100% scum. I think it's more of a 50/50 right now. Honestly, one morning I think he is scum and another I think he's telling the truth, it's really hard to decide.

I believe we must lynch him tonight because:
1) We have all been divided between Strike, Chap, Rodi. They constantly debate for lengths on end, which isn't always a bad thing, but it's causing our votes to be split all the time. This is the first time I have ever seen a debate escalate over such a little thing (a jokevote in another game), and I think its been blown ridiculously out of proportion. I think we need to choose sides now, or they are just going to continue fighting tomorrow - I can definitely see that happening
2) I do not want to risk another claim from a power role. We have already outed the doc and the cop (and a possible bomb) i can agree with that

fast posted by betiko
3) The information we receive from Rodion's lynch will be priceless. Whatever he flips, I think we will all have more information to go into tomorrow with to make valuable cases. Absolutely 100% agree with this one
4) Cannot waste a night "verifying" he is the bomb, things can get mucked up pretty easily. (He could be GF, there could be a framer, etc etc etc.) If we do get a guilty result, he will just argue his heart out all over again. Even after the night it most likely won't be verified because we can't be sure about any cop investigation due to the possibility of framing or God Father as I mentioned earlier and you have repeated so we do it all again tomorrow... which I do not want to do

This is neither here nor there, but I know Rodion is a great player, I have to make an effort to not just "take his word for it", this bomb claim is right up his alley and a claim that is up to the level of his skill.


Sorry if I have not posted as much as I did. I have certainly been following along, (although kind of frustrated with Rodi's and Strike's traded novels to each other), and I really like what Medefe has to say, I was hoping more of the "less active" players will chime in and give information as well. I think all of the active players talked this out as much as we physically and mentally can, any more we say will just be repeating ourselves for the 4th or 5th or 10th time we need new opnions

I think the FOS system is working, can we continue with it?

My comments above are in blue to distinguish them. As I said in an earlier I think we need to deal with Rodion today and get it over with... no matter what the result the information that we gain will be extremely valuable after all of this discussion.

[jonty125]

epitaph, jonty, mob, jimfinn and shield who haven't posted much lately

Sorry, but I've made my motives clear and we're going round in circles so I felt that reposting my motives is not going to finish the day any earlier. I feel that Rodion is scum and if he is town then I'm willing to accept I saw him as scum. But he's being acting really scummy in this game and he's passed the point of no return.

FASTPOSTED by trini

[jimfinn]

I feel the FoS is the best way to go, so we get two lynches today essentially. We can't not lynch Rodion.

[MeDeFe]

You guys are still doing it. Please stop. Don't conflate whether we should lynch Rodion or not with the question of who else is scummy enough to be lynched.

MoB, regarding your points.

@ 1) I assume you mean we need to choose sides between those three and lynch one or maybe even two of them? Well, allow me to disagree, Rodion has claimed. His death is only useful if he takes a scum with him. Chap has effectively softclaimed VT by offering to hammer Rodion immediately after he claimed, before offering to hammer was considered to be a pro-town stance. Strike has generally been constructive, there is no clear evidence, but I'm more inclined to say he's town than scum.
No, what we need to do is find consensus, not "choose sides". (Sorry chap, this is not a day we want to end quickly quite yet.)

@ 2) Exposing further powerroles would indeed not be a good thing, but neither is it a good thing to have someone who's likely a townie hammer Rodion.

@ 3) Of course his death would provide us with information, but we have to ask ourselves at what cost.

@ 4) Or the cop could simply investigate someone else.

[dazza2008]

You guys are still doing it. Please stop. Don't conflate whether we should lynch Rodion or not with the question of who else is scummy enough to be lynched.

MoB, regarding your points.

@ 1) I assume you mean we need to choose sides between those three and lynch one or maybe even two of them? Well, allow me to disagree, Rodion has claimed. His death is only useful if he takes a scum with him. Chap has effectively softclaimed VT by offering to hammer Rodion immediately after he claimed, before offering to hammer was considered to be a pro-town stance. Strike has generally been constructive, there is no clear evidence, but I'm more inclined to say he's town than scum.
No, what we need to do is find consensus, not "choose sides". (Sorry chap, this is not a day we want to end quickly quite yet.)

@ 2) Exposing further powerroles would indeed not be a good thing, but neither is it a good thing to have someone who's likely a townie hammer Rodion.

@ 3) Of course his death would provide us with information, but we have to ask ourselves at what cost.

@ 4) Or the cop could simply investigate someone else.

So you are 100% sure he is what he says he is. How so sure?

[betiko]

ok, i don't know how to make things advance here, let me sumarize what I understand from every point of view (took the list from page one); I might get some stuff wrong, thank you to rectify cause i am not doing this with any kind of notes:

1. Leitz: suspects rodion and betiko. voted for the first one, hammer fossed the second
2. MoB Deadly: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
3. Rodion: will not self hammer but wants strike or chap to hammer him
4. jimfinn: wants to fos-lynch someone on rodion and didn't make public who it is/ is still thinking
5. shieldgenerator7: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
6. jonty125: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
7. dazza2008: tired of day 2, has gone against rodion since the start and is ready to do the hammer
8. trinicardinal: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
9. Swifte: not too sure of his actual position
12. Epitaph1: not too sure of his actual position
13. betiko: wants to fos-lynch someone on rodion and didn't make public who it is/ is still thinking
14. MeDeFe: wants to find a new case to lynch, with or without the rodion hammer part
15. chapcrap: tired of day 2, has gone against rodion since the start and is ready to do the hammer
16. strike wolf: not too sure of his actual position

well, I m not sure I m acurate, maybe the best would be to give a 1 phrase last opinion each?

fastposted by dazza

[strike wolf]

Let's assume rodion is a vanilla townie; I think it's possible that in that case he would fakeclaim and pick a role like the bomb to scare away scums? also claiming VT at that point would've assured a lynch on him!
he says never lie when you claim and you are town, bullcrap! if you claim VT you are dead anyway, why not claim bomb?

I have debated this before. And from multiple players, they all say town should never ever lie. It would be selfish for him to lie for an attempt to stay in the game, and if it works, he will eventually be caught.

When he is caught, it will be remembered in every other game he plays in, and we will never be able to believe any of his claims, even if we think he is telling the truth.

I would not say never ever lie. I am all for overselling your role when you are a VT to get attention from scum shifted to you over power roles and I am all for trying to avoid full claiming if you have a character that is pretty much guaranteed to be in the game (Giles in Buffy Mafia, Mal Reynolds in Firefly) and trying to WIFOM the mafia a bit from there. Now should a VT claim bomb just to keep himself from getting lynched? No. This could get more WIFOMy depending on what stage the game is in but in this scenario lying about a bomb claim would be horrible.

EBWOPS: pyramids!!!

And I'm prepared to take whatever flak is thrown at me. That doesn't mean I'm not going to voice my position and why i did everything. I knew that if you were town and I still doubt that that I would go unnoticed today. I don't like my position (If you flip scum I'm likely on top of the scum's kill list, if you flip town I'm likely at the top of town's kill list. There's even a possibility the vig will take a shot at me. What I'm not going down is lie down and take it. As far as being wrong and admitting it. I think that's some advice that you need to take for yourself more often.

Good, that's good.

And I have no problem admitting mistakes when I'm wrong. I quickly apologized for skimming when I mentioned Chap/Trini's L-2 discussion, as have I admitted that my answer about worrying was not given directly to your question, but rather in perspective about something that worried me more. I'll do it more often if/when I'm wrong more often, mmkay?

Don't play dumb. You know that regardless of the origins more than half the people in this game picked a position against you, many of them have picked pretty definitive stance. I explained this when I originally decided to follow through after Jim's claims and everything escalated with you.

This is not about playing dumb, it's about you again exaggerating something in order to accomplish something. About half the scum tells is ludicrous and I showed that you could only come close to that figure by throwing all the BS accusation I've received over the course of the day.

Well let's look at your case from before I made my post. Disregarding you there were 2 people who were highly caught up in it (3 if you include me, which from a town perspective, I've been leading the case more than anyone and I was implicated in your own post so yeah I was implicated). The average early case in mafia has one or two strongly indicated. The person leading the case and the other is usually a person who has linked themselves with either the person who is leading the case or the suspect, the second may also be someone who drops a quick hammer. Chap was linked into this case because he was implicated in your case (I don't personally consider this damning as I don't buy much into your initial case and obviously it would revolve around me being scum but from a town perspective it is more significant), he took a strong stance against you and he has dropped a few possible scum tells along the way. So yes he is strongly implicated. Betiko has at multiple points aligned himself with you. He has backed off a little bit more over recent pages but that could also be a response to people questioning a possible link with you. From my perspective he is highly implicated with you. I've already gone over why I would be highly implicated in this case whether I agree with why I should be or not. Those are the strongly implicated. there are also people who have been moderately implicated with Shield who other than being mostly inactive has stuck with a vote against you because you spoke French, Jonty who has been notably against you, Mob who has also been notably against you and Epitaph who partially got drawn into it (mostly over a misunderstanding that may have been produced by a skim so that's negligible) and a somewhat more substantial reason in that I feel he's kind of changed his tune on the issue as he was initially against pressuring either one of us. Most of the town has also been less significantly been implicated in this case. Once you take out the 2 claimed townies (who both seemed to favor your case) and you yourself that leaves eleven townies. Including me from the town perspective, that's 6 out of 11 with notable 5 out of 11 not including me. A normal case would have between 2-3 people who would have any significant link in the case. The numbers involved in this one blow that number out of the water.

I will apologize on one thing. I did make a mistake in saying you brought up the what you feel would happen if you were to be lynched. MeDeFe was the one who brought that up. I still stick to everything else I said about it however.

ok, i don't know how to make things advance here, let me sumarize what I understand from every point of view (took the list from page one); I might get some stuff wrong, thank you to rectify cause i am not doing this with any kind of notes:

1. Leitz: suspects rodion and betiko. voted for the first one, hammer fossed the second
2. MoB Deadly: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
3. Rodion: will not self hammer but wants strike or chap to hammer him
4. jimfinn: wants to fos-lynch someone on rodion and didn't make public who it is/ is still thinking
5. shieldgenerator7: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
6. jonty125: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
7. dazza2008: tired of day 2, has gone against rodion since the start and is ready to do the hammer
8. trinicardinal: killing rodion at the end of day 2 is the best solution taking in consideration pros and cons
9. Swifte: not too sure of his actual position
12. Epitaph1: not too sure of his actual position
13. betiko: wants to fos-lynch someone on rodion and didn't make public who it is/ is still thinking
14. MeDeFe: wants to find a new case to lynch, with or without the rodion hammer part
15. chapcrap: tired of day 2, has gone against rodion since the start and is ready to do the hammer
16. strike wolf: made it clear that he 1. Will not be hammering Rodion. 2. believes that Rodion should self-hammer. 3. Does not wish for anyone else to be questioned and forced to claim today and 4. IF Rodion won't self-hammer believes Chap should

well, I m not sure I m acurate, maybe the best would be to give a 1 phrase last opinion each?

fastposted by dazza

Since my position was defined as unclear I put it in bold what I feel should happen.

Sorry again for the long post, I don't plan on discussing this much more day 2. This should be my last long post in other words.

[strike wolf]

Let's assume rodion is a vanilla townie; I think it's possible that in that case he would fakeclaim and pick a role like the bomb to scare away scums? also claiming VT at that point would've assured a lynch on him!
he says never lie when you claim and you are town, bullcrap! if you claim VT you are dead anyway, why not claim bomb?

I have debated this before. And from multiple players, they all say town should never ever lie. It would be selfish for him to lie for an attempt to stay in the game, and if it works, he will eventually be caught.

When he is caught, it will be remembered in every other game he plays in, and we will never be able to believe any of his claims, even if we think he is telling the truth.

I would not say never ever lie. I am all for overselling your role when you are a VT to get attention from scum shifted to you over power roles and I am all for trying to avoid full claiming if you have a character that is pretty much guaranteed to be in the game (Giles in Buffy Mafia, Mal Reynolds in Firefly) and trying to WIFOM the mafia a bit from there. Now should a VT claim bomb just to keep himself from getting lynched? No. This could get more WIFOMy depending on what stage the game is in but in this scenario lying about a bomb claim would be horrible.

EBWOP: A full fake claim should be out in most scenarios. A doctor could potentially fake claim VT if it's a strong name claim but even that's dangerous.

[betiko]

actually strike this is the position you ve been having all the way, just looked like it changed a bit after yesterday's debate and wasn't too sure if it was the case. aparently not.
basically the fos hammer is not advancing since and no real case is being brought up. I think we've been discussing long enough this day...
Basically the whole debate was rodion or jimfinn, after jimfinn claimed all on rodion, then he claimed and it's been lynch him or not, or even double lynch. we are going nowhere, we are all stuck on our positions.. what usually happens in mafia games in these cases, mods come up with something?

fastposted

yeah if you are a doc and you claim vt the town can see you as an acceptable loss and then it's impossible to explain you were actually a doc before they hammer you right?

[MoB Deadly]

actually strike this is the position you ve been having all the way, just looked like it changed a bit after yesterday's debate and wasn't too sure if it was the case. aparently not.
basically the fos hammer is not advancing since and no real case is being brought up. I think we've been discussing long enough this day...
Basically the whole debate was rodion or jimfinn, after jimfinn claimed all on rodion, then he claimed and it's been lynch him or not, or even double lynch. we are going nowhere, we are all stuck on our positions.. what usually happens in mafia games in these cases, mods come up with something?

fastposted

yeah if you are a doc and you claim vt the town can see you as an acceptable loss and then it's impossible to explain you were actually a doc before they hammer you right?

We are fine because we are debating and keeping activity up. If we REALLY can't decide and activity drops, then I am sure a deadline will be set, which will either

1) Lynch the player with the most votes, last voter = hammer
2) If a deadline is reached and no one has majority votes then there will be a No Lynch.