Was it worth it?

[jay_a2j]

a) i think you mean 'inhumanely'. I don't think treating chickens like humans is going to do anyone or any chickens much good

b) the protesters 'is liberalism'?

c) How do you know the KFC protesters are the same people at the pro-life rallies? how do you know? I am honestly curious.

EDIT: It is so easy to manipulate people like jay - just give them a 'war on <insert abstract noun>'. Terror, communism, liberalism.... it's all the same bullshit anyway. How do you win a war on an abstract concept? Answer: you tell jay and his ilk that you're winning. Also throw in a few other abstract nouns like 'pride', 'patriotism', 'duty' blah blah blah

a) quick spell-check was at top of list, clicked it..... yeah I should have used the PETA word.."(UN)ETHICAL"

b) no, the mindset of the protesters is liberalism.

c) if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and hangs around other ducks chances are.....its a duck.

[reverend_kyle]

Wow, until I saw this video I never knew that people can die as a result of war. This will greatly change my political outlook.

Is the loss of thousands of american citizens just to put Iraq in a huge civil war worth it?

No. I don't think so.

Do you?

I think it was worth it.

What good have we done?

Except get the Iraqis to start killing eachother off?

I'm not even sure that is good.

[got tonkaed]

Although this may be a bit semantic in nature....our forefathers were actually fairly liberal in their notions of the world. Products of the Enlightenment they choose to set up a system that did not represent the commonly accepted values, but rather a system which they felt would serve best the needs of the people....something that is in fact a fairly liberal notion.

Though certainly by our standards today these men had plenty of flaws...slaveholding, lack of womens rights, lack of civil rights toward minorities...its important to understand that given the timeperiod the actions of our founding fathers were liberal...not conservative.

Everyone looks worse under the lens of a few hundred years. But that is the beauty of the system that the founding fathers have set up...it allows free thinking and the oppertunity for individuals to continue to embrace the human experience...something that more close minded ideologies often fail to do.

[reverend_kyle]

Although this may be a bit semantic in nature....our forefathers were actually fairly liberal in their notions of the world. Products of the Enlightenment they choose to set up a system that did not represent the commonly accepted values, but rather a system which they felt would serve best the needs of the people....something that is in fact a fairly liberal notion.

Though certainly by our standards today these men had plenty of flaws...slaveholding, lack of womens rights, lack of civil rights toward minorities...its important to understand that given the timeperiod the actions of our founding fathers were liberal...not conservative.

Everyone looks worse under the lens of a few hundred years. But that is the beauty of the system that the founding fathers have set up...it allows free thinking and the oppertunity for individuals to continue to embrace the human experience...something that more close minded ideologies often fail to do.

Thanks for that, I was going to say something along those lines, but too much thinking is lost in the mind of Jay because it confuses him.

[jay_a2j]

Although this may be a bit semantic in nature....our forefathers were actually fairly liberal in their notions of the world. Products of the Enlightenment they choose to set up a system that did not represent the commonly accepted values, but rather a system which they felt would serve best the needs of the people....something that is in fact a fairly liberal notion.

Though certainly by our standards today these men had plenty of flaws...slaveholding, lack of womens rights, lack of civil rights toward minorities...its important to understand that given the timeperiod the actions of our founding fathers were liberal...not conservative.

Everyone looks worse under the lens of a few hundred years. But that is the beauty of the system that the founding fathers have set up...it allows free thinking and the oppertunity for individuals to continue to embrace the human experience...something that more close minded ideologies often fail to do.

Thanks for that, I was going to say something along those lines, but too much thinking is lost in the mind of Jay because it confuses him.

Rev. if anyone here is confused it is you.

[longboreder]

sure thing Archie, could you have Edith go get me a beer?

[unriggable]

Things worked well for the 250 years prior to liberalism invading this nation.

That's true. Ever since that Lincoln guy got elected, there is just NO place to buy good slaves anymore. So, liberalism even hurts us non-americans.

Thats not liberalism thats civil rights.


The protesters outside of KFC saying that KFC treats chickens inhumanly is liberalism (they are the same people at the pro-choice rallies).

Oh well endorsing slavery and the bible is conservative, you don't see us bitching about it...

liberalism is literally 'as few laws as possible, as long as it doesn't cause us harm' Ie antismoking laws, antiabortion laws, antistem cell laws (which actually help people), the liberals want to go with science and you conservatives are saying "No! We stay in the TWENTIETH century!"

[jay_a2j]

Things worked well for the 250 years prior to liberalism invading this nation.

That's true. Ever since that Lincoln guy got elected, there is just NO place to buy good slaves anymore. So, liberalism even hurts us non-americans.

Thats not liberalism thats civil rights.


The protesters outside of KFC saying that KFC treats chickens inhumanly is liberalism (they are the same people at the pro-choice rallies).

Oh well endorsing slavery and the bible is conservative, you don't see us bitching about it...

liberalism is literally 'as few laws as possible, as long as it doesn't cause us harm' Ie antismoking laws, antiabortion laws, antistem cell laws (which actually help people), the liberals want to go with science and you conservatives are saying "No! We stay in the TWENTIETH century!"

Until they ban screaming on roller coasters as mentioned in another thread. Liberalism is the majority bowing down to the minority cause you JUST CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE all the time!

[heavycola]

Things worked well for the 250 years prior to liberalism invading this nation.

That's true. Ever since that Lincoln guy got elected, there is just NO place to buy good slaves anymore. So, liberalism even hurts us non-americans.

Thats not liberalism thats civil rights.


The protesters outside of KFC saying that KFC treats chickens inhumanly is liberalism (they are the same people at the pro-choice rallies).

Oh well endorsing slavery and the bible is conservative, you don't see us bitching about it...

liberalism is literally 'as few laws as possible, as long as it doesn't cause us harm' Ie antismoking laws, antiabortion laws, antistem cell laws (which actually help people), the liberals want to go with science and you conservatives are saying "No! We stay in the TWENTIETH century!"

Until they ban screaming on roller coasters as mentioned in another thread. Liberalism is the majority bowing down to the minority cause you JUST CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE all the time!

Jay - if you are going to spout stuff like that you should back it up. Please show when
a) 'liberalism' 'invaded' the US
b) screaming was banned on rollercoasters (by liberals presumably)

Otherwise you are just displaying your own baseless prejudices

[jay_a2j]

Things worked well for the 250 years prior to liberalism invading this nation.

That's true. Ever since that Lincoln guy got elected, there is just NO place to buy good slaves anymore. So, liberalism even hurts us non-americans.

Thats not liberalism thats civil rights.


The protesters outside of KFC saying that KFC treats chickens inhumanly is liberalism (they are the same people at the pro-choice rallies).

Oh well endorsing slavery and the bible is conservative, you don't see us bitching about it...

liberalism is literally 'as few laws as possible, as long as it doesn't cause us harm' Ie antismoking laws, antiabortion laws, antistem cell laws (which actually help people), the liberals want to go with science and you conservatives are saying "No! We stay in the TWENTIETH century!"

Until they ban screaming on roller coasters as mentioned in another thread. Liberalism is the majority bowing down to the minority cause you JUST CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE all the time!

Jay - if you are going to spout stuff like that you should back it up. Please show when
a) 'liberalism' 'invaded' the US
b) screaming was banned on rollercoasters (by liberals presumably)

Otherwise you are just displaying your own baseless prejudices

heavy, are you even IN the US? I didn't think so. Are you familiar with the left coast state governments? I didn't think so. Nancy Pelosi (CA). Liberalism at its finest! Do you even have the slightest clue that these left states are WELCOMING illegal immigration for the ILLEGAL votes they bring? I didn't think so.

[heavycola]

Things worked well for the 250 years prior to liberalism invading this nation.

That's true. Ever since that Lincoln guy got elected, there is just NO place to buy good slaves anymore. So, liberalism even hurts us non-americans.

Thats not liberalism thats civil rights.


The protesters outside of KFC saying that KFC treats chickens inhumanly is liberalism (they are the same people at the pro-choice rallies).

Oh well endorsing slavery and the bible is conservative, you don't see us bitching about it...

liberalism is literally 'as few laws as possible, as long as it doesn't cause us harm' Ie antismoking laws, antiabortion laws, antistem cell laws (which actually help people), the liberals want to go with science and you conservatives are saying "No! We stay in the TWENTIETH century!"

Until they ban screaming on roller coasters as mentioned in another thread. Liberalism is the majority bowing down to the minority cause you JUST CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE all the time!

Jay - if you are going to spout stuff like that you should back it up. Please show when
a) 'liberalism' 'invaded' the US
b) screaming was banned on rollercoasters (by liberals presumably)

Otherwise you are just displaying your own baseless prejudices

heavy, are you even IN the US? I didn't think so. Are you familiar with the left coast state governments? I didn't think so. Nancy Pelosi (CA). Liberalism at its finest! Do you even have the slightest clue that these left states are WELCOMING illegal immigration for the ILLEGAL votes they bring? I didn't think so.

Illegal votes? Really? how? Who is counting votes from non-citizens?

Look jay you keep coming out with this stuff, I ask you to back it up and instead you just spout more.


PS Yes, I know who Nancy Pelosi is. I am assuming a fair few folk voted for her, too.

[btownmeggy]

PS Yes, I know who Nancy Pelosi is. I am assuming a fair few folk voted for her, too.

Actually, heavy, that's where you're wrong. She actually conquered the House of Representatives with a horde of Central Asian horsemen.

[Balsiefen]

Things worked well for the 250 years prior to liberalism invading this nation. It has always been here but for the most part it was kept contained and rendered ineffective. But slowly over the past 20 years or so it has crept into society almost unnoticed. Liberalism has taken the "freedom to discipline" away from parents.... creating a generation of undisciplined children with very little if any respect for authority or elders. It has forced on its people that what is "good" for one is "tolerable" for all. Liberalism is the forcing of the beliefs of minorities onto the better judgement of the majority. It is a corrupt, godless, self centered view of how the world should be according to the few. And its growing..... destroying what our forefathers created.

yes, slavery was a good thing, and the kkk were greatly misunderstood. Before that the burning of catholics was just high spirits BUT NOW THESE F*CKING LIBERALS COME IN WITH THEIR SIGNS TELLING US NOT TO EAT CHICKIN. ITS DESTROYING THE WORLD!

[jay_a2j]

yes, slavery was a good thing, and the kkk were greatly misunderstood. Before that the burning of catholics was just high spirits BUT NOW THESE F*CKING LIBERALS COME IN WITH THEIR SIGNS TELLING US NOT TO EAT CHICKEN. ITS DESTROYING THE WORLD!

Slavery and the kkk? What does that have to do with the price of rice?


I am well aware not all people, even not all conservatives, see the effects liberalism is having on this nation.


* In CA kids are bussed across town even though there is a school across the street from their house because they want "diversity".

* We are to "tolerate" alternative lifestyles all the while they bash Christianity.

*Army recruiters are not welcome at some CA universities.(Due to the anti-military liberals)

*Our airport security stops grandma and the woman with the baby carriage but do not stop the middle aged Arab man because its politically incorrect and may "offend" the man.


but keep your eyes wide shut...its expected.

[got tonkaed]

jay...though those are nice talking points....and minus the somewhat racial undertones of the last example...after all what did that middle aged arab man do, although i know you dont know the details of the situation, in what way does that make it right to start racial profiling people? either way thats not here or there for what i want to post.


Jay, there are things that liberals do which probably are questionable, i dont think any liberal would fail to see that point. But by listing these talking points, yes you do cite examples, but you cite them in a way thaty you seem to think proves that liberalism is causing America to go down some terrible or perilous path. Jay the simple fact is, and from time to time i think youve noted it as well, we can all cite things that we simply do not like about the other side. As a liberal, i dont like people smashing windows of army recruiters, even if i dont like the methods army recruiters use, from personal experience. Still, you dont see me touting some kind of right wing conspiracy about a single act of an army recruiter.

If there is a danger that is related to conservatism in this country right now, its the simple fact that far too many people are closing their minds off, assuming that the other is always some kind of evil. Jay im not going to make statements about you personally, but the simple observation can be made that much of the conservative talking points are underlied with tremendous amounts of fear. Yes it is a scary world out there, but trying to bring everyone to a similar line of thinking simply will not happen, nor would it make the problem go away. The strength of any nation or any group of people for that matter, is the ability to come together and work alongside people who are different than they are. Not out of necesity, but out of the sheer fact that they can depend on their neighbor. When more conservatives can stop fearing...and often subsequently hating the other there will be far less of a difficult dynamic between liberals and conservatives.

[heavycola]

* We are to "tolerate" alternative lifestyles all the while they bash Christianity.

Is christianity not a religion of tolerance? Why don't you live by your own rules and let others live by their own? WHo cares if they bash you? Turn the other cheek.

*Army recruiters are not welcome at some CA universities.(Due to the anti-military liberals)

Should the army have the right to recruit wherever they want? Why don't they recruit at universities where they are more welcome? Don't campuses- even filthy commie ones like berkely - have a right to decide which recruiters they allow on their land? What is your problem?

*Our airport security stops grandma and the woman with the baby carriage but do not stop the middle aged Arab man because its politically incorrect and may "offend" the man.

Jay try not to jerk your knee any harder, you'll sprain something. Do you REALLY think - for ONE SECOND - that the DHS is targeting pensioners and mothers at airport security over arab men? REALLY? RREEAALLYYY???

:mops brow:
Sheesh.

[Balsiefen]

* In CA kids are bussed across town even though there is a school across the street from their house because they want "diversity".

not because its a better school? i cant imagine people doing that just for a school with etnic groups in it. I would thing there is somthing in the teaching style parents dont like

* We are to "tolerate" alternative lifestyles all the while they bash Christianity.

in what way do they bash christianity? is this ones who dont belive it is worthwile or ones who actually discriminate against christians

*Army recruiters are not welcome at some CA universities.(Due to the anti-military liberals)

if someone wants to join the army they will join it. you dont need to send people to make them, any career you need to be persuaded to do is not a career worth doing. frankly i wont be crying if armies get a little smaller anyway.

*Our airport security stops grandma and the woman with the baby carriage but do not stop the middle aged Arab man because its politically incorrect and may "offend" the man.

Airport security is done on a random basis like every 10th person that comes along. this is a shame as the arab is obviously going to blow himself up

[jay_a2j]

after all what did that middle aged arab man do, although i know you dont know the details of the situation, in what way does that make it right to start racial profiling people?

What did the grandma do? or the woman and her baby? Reality check....the MEN that hijacked the planes on 911 were middle aged Arab men! Yeah, I know it's politically incorrect to single out Arab men but lets keep it real.... I don't think grandma or a woman with a baby are a threat for hijacking a plane and flying it into a building! Racial profiling? I vote yes.

but the simple observation can be made that much of the conservative talking points are underlied with tremendous amounts of fear. Yes it is a scary world out there, but trying to bring everyone to a similar line of thinking simply will not happen, nor would it make the problem go away. The strength of any nation or any group of people for that matter, is the ability to come together and work alongside people who are different than they are. Not out of necesity, but out of the sheer fact that they can depend on their neighbor. When more conservatives can stop fearing...and often subsequently hating the other there will be far less of a difficult dynamic between liberals and conservatives.

Fear? Do you think the people in the WTC on 911 experienced fear? Yes. This is why liberalism is crazy! If a child came home from school and said a fat white kid molests her every day at school. Would it be wrong to single out the fat white kids in an investigation? Would they even bother to question the skinny white, black, asian or latin kids? NO. We know it was a fat white kid! Why many people don't understand this and apply it to terrorism is beyond me.

[heavycola]

after all what did that middle aged arab man do, although i know you dont know the details of the situation, in what way does that make it right to start racial profiling people?

What did the grandma do? or the woman and her baby? Reality check....the MEN that hijacked the planes on 911 were middle aged Arab men! Yeah, I know it's politically incorrect to single out Arab men but lets keep it real.... I don't think grandma or a woman with a baby are a threat for hijacking a plane and flying it into a building! Racial profiling? I vote yes.

Jay do you ever actually think this stuff through?

If you were in charge of homeland security, the terrosrists would have it SO easy. You would search every middle-aged arab male who arrives in the US, thus pissing off arabs all over the world and possibly contributing to the spread of extremism. But luckily they would know just how to sneak thru your security cordon - by using an elderly white woman, either as an unwitting mule or by brainwashing her, let's say. You should think before you rant.

And do you REALLy think that a department formed by George W Bush is only frisking white people - and not frisking people who match the hijackers' racial profile - because it's scared of offending anyone? Really?

Do you also honestly believe that if a schoolgirl reports a fat white kid for molesting her that the authorities wouldn't concentrate all their efforts on the fat white kids? Where do you get these fantasies? What planet do you live on, jay? THINK, man, THINK!

[got tonkaed]

jay im not going to tell you its wrong to want retribution for the things that happened september 11th. Much like nearly everyone else, when it first happened I was as stunned, shocked, and disgusted as anyone else. But as a civilized nation we must know that the things we are doing now arent to honor their lives or even to make our country any more safe than it was before. Our military budget is nearly the size of the rest of the developed worlds combined. Now many of those expenditures are important, but because of the size of the budget, other expenditures like a 2 billion one time effort to secure our ports, never get out there. You ask me, which do i think will make our country more safe, better port security or sending more troops in an action which will feel like invasion...clearly its the first.

The problem with some of the lines of thinking you have is, fear becomes a pretty powerful drug. The world although is a harsh and often cruel place, where sometimes you must compete or die, is also a place where people can have some empathy for one another. Im not saying if we put down all the defenses we would never be attacked again, certainly there are people out there who dont like us. But when you let the emotion of fear cloud your worldview you simply do not allow yourself quite the possiblity for growth. And the less that we grow, the simple fact is the weaker we are and more likely to passed on in such a competitive environment. Not everyone arab is by any means out to harm you, and the sooner you can work alongside them the more enriched you will be.

[boogiesadda]

i must say.... that touched me, some of the lyrics were a bit crude though

what was crude about it?

[boogiesadda]

Wow, until I saw this video I never knew that people can die as a result of war. This will greatly change my political outlook.

Is the loss of thousands of american citizens just to put Iraq in a huge civil war worth it?

No. I don't think so.

Do you?

right on Rev

[jay_a2j]

got tonkaed.... I understand your points and they are well articulated btw. But speaking for myself, it has more to do with anger then fear. I'm not suggesting like heavycola says, that we ONLY search Arab men....but its a start and a good one.

Although, this for me, is assuming 9/11 wasn't orchestrated by our own government. Which I still hold as a possibility. Then any and all searches become irrelevant.

[DIRESTRAITS]

Bush's biggest problem is he is only fighting this war half assed. He needs to take a leaf out of Lincolns book and fight a war to win, not to be popular

[reverend_kyle]

Bush's biggest problem is he is only fighting this war half assed. He needs to take a leaf out of Lincolns book and fight a war to win, not to be popular

I, for one agree, He is totally fighting this war to be popular.


It's working too.