[Official] Team CC Mafia [Finished]

[Metsfanmax]

And now you just tried to shift focus from yourself to "us all"? I'll not vote on you because that'd put you on L-3 and the existence of 4 culties means that, if you're town, you could get speedlynched even if one of them is offline. Consider this a FOS until you provide us with your own opinions on the latest events.

I just did give you my opinion. Most of the active players demanded Victor's death, and that nearly destroyed the town. It's not possible that all of you had good intentions for the town in that discussion. Statistically speaking, one of you major contributors is a member of the cult. You and safariguy and others fairly vigorously demanded for Victor's death, so I'm not sure which ones are cult. That's why I don't have anything substantive to contribute.

Well if you didn't think that Victor shouldn't have been lynched, you should have come to his defense. About the only person who didn't want Victor lynched was jonty, and even he couldn't explain why Victor would lie in his roleclaim. It wasn't like we speedlynched him, Victor had enough scumminess and continued refusal to explain his reasoning in the face of a deadline that warranted a DK.

In my one actual post, I observed that his lie didn't point to him being non-town. Everyone jumped on his lie and said "town wouldn't do this," but there was no actual reasoning in that assertion. The fact that he ended up actually being town proves the lack of logic there.

[pancakemix]

Let's see how people reacted at the first implication of cult

Safari: Suggested it. Was accused of being cult. It was argued that he would not suggest it if he were cult, but this is a WIFOM argument and ca get tricky.

vote Hank44Soccer until he decides that posting more than once per mafia day is acceptable. Seriously.

Also, just looking at the scene, I think there's a possible cult recruiter out there.

Could be McGill, could be the FW peeps, but we should definitely be aware of this.

I wouldn't say much more here, but here's a case from commander on Day 3.

Victor Sullivan: Moot.

Metsfan: Kinda pushes safari. Didn't vote, but makes the reasonable point that recruiter was not specifically implied.

Ok, but the text didn't say anything about there being a recruiter, it just implied the hint of some sort of third party. Yet you jumped to the conclusion of recruiter immediately.

Also attempted to make it seem as though this was a more popular opinion than it actually was.

Vote shield

Most of us thought it was suspicious that safari jumped to cult recruiter so quickly, but there simply wasn't enough to go on to force a real bandwagon. If you would be willing to join in on such weak evidence, something is probably amiss.

Jeradoo: Brings the WIFOM element into the mix. Supports the probability of a recruiter.

Mets, my first thought was recruiting cult and saf is way more experienced than me. If there is a third party faction then either it would have to have a good few members probably at least 4, or recruit. My take on the scene flavour is that at the moment it isnt a great threat, but needs to be taken care of, which suggests it can grow. However I think the main point is that personally, I couldn't see saf raising it in that way, even as a clever ruse to seem innocent.

Jimfinn: Never directly stated his opinion, but suggested that the scene could imply that there was a recruiter.

Cult inherently implies recruiter, Metsfan, and he was listing as one possibility, not the definitive answer. Perhaps he also has some PR whose Role PM specifies anti-cult or something. It's not that suspect in my book. Setup specualtion is only suspicious when it avoids real discussion.

As for the players who've played a lot on here, what's the going meta with regard to cop, doc, vig, etc? One of each per game, or are no cop games common? Things like that do actually help at least some, especially for those unfamiliar with this site's version of mafia but experienced elsewhere.

Squirrel: Replaced Day 2. Could only speak from a perspective where cult was confirmed.

Made some changes to the initial post. Nothing major, mostly just removing Victor's section for the sake of brevity.

Let's talk aout Commander. Not his alignment, that's been beaten to death as far as he himself is concerned. More important is the reaction to his statement of alignment change.

Safari: Doesn't question it, but by the nature of this post we can see that trusts it.

So I'm assuming both town and mafia had hunters as the nagerous role was a mafia hunter. Do you happen to know if the hunters only look for you to switch alignment or can they switch alignment of other people?

This question seems genuine, so we can eliminate him from being the town hunter.

Safari was nearly lynched on Day 3 for I'm not sure what. Doom made an interesting point about him on Day 4

Let's say for a second that I am mafia. Safariguy5 is saying, by his vote on me, that he is more worried about the mafia, which are probably down to very few members, then the cult, which are now up to 4 members. After 4 days, I begin to wonder: how much more evidence do people need that he is a possible recruiter: vote safariguy5

Now all Doom really knew was that Safari wasn't mafia and was trying to throw attention towards someone else. Despite that, the point is actually pretty valid.

Mets: Not really a direct response here, but there is this pretty neutral one:

Yes, Commander wants us to believe that before he was recruited, he was third party and thus his win condition was probably "survive until the end." After he was recruited to the town, his win condition is now "eliminate all threats to the town."

Now my vote is currently on Mets for taking the easy way out on cult's existence and here it looks like he's doing it again. Now I will grant him that in context this is an explanation to Bleed about Commander's situation, but it's the wording here that gets me. I often find that the devil is in the details as far as these things go, and the detail "wants us to believe" is what doesn't sit right with me. There are other ways to say this in a neutral manner, like "is saying". But "wants us to believe" speaks to a lack of trust and a more sinister motive. I can't say not trusting Commander is itself scummy, as I'm guilty of that. It also brings with it a sense of wanting to bring a lynch in that direction. If you're a cult leader, lynching someone everyone thinks is cult seems like a sound strategy.

This is something I found interesting. It comes after a long stretch of silence from Mets:

I said I might be unrecruitable - I never said I definitely was. As far as my powers go - I've already said enough times that if I reveal my powers, they will be undone and I shall not do that even if I'd be lynched. Can you elaborate on the very last part?

Convenient copout. Even a vanilla townie, if that is indeed what you'd become after revealing your power, is useful to us in that it means we can avoid a wasted lynch.

A cult recruiter would also want to eliminate the town's greatest asset when he realized a lynch wasn't going to happen.

Jimfinn: Believed that Commander was town straight off.

I agree that Commander is likely now town, I also agree that Bleed_Green more likely made an innocent mistake or misinterpretation than a scummy attempt at a lynch

Right here I would like to note that jimfinn was Gilligan's choice for his fake investigation as innocent. He could've been trying to bait a test on our part or trying to confirm his cultmate as town, though the latter option is WIFOM.

Mr. Squirrel: Got into a particularly large debate with Commander. Too long to post here; here's the start of it.

Now Squirrel's claim of ljex has been a bit disputed, though he did provide a list of actions.

Fine. I was given three powers: one track, one investigation, and one protect. When I replaced, none of them had been used.

Night 2: tracked firth, got nothing (died, revealed mason)
Night 3: investigated rodion (and got copblocked)
Night 4: protected C9 (although with no more mafia, I didn't really anticipate his death)

I'd like to point out that these actions have no consequences to them. To be fair though, he pointed out that he had been blocked on Day 4. Therefore, I have no reason to doubt that he was in fact blocked and that he is not the cult recruiter on that basis.

Jeraado: This was the first post I found from him after a very long silence, which goes to show how quiet he's been.

I assumed yoshi was being sarcastic, but I'm not very good at reading that type of thing...

Before we lynch yoshi though, I think we should work our way through the naxus question. Investigator is a pretty common claim for an anti-town role. Personally I had completely missed how odd it was that he had picked gilligan as recruited. Now that it has been spelt out, it doesn't seem to fit the role that naxus has claimed. I'd like to hear an explanation from him.

I agree that we've got to lynch the remaining mafia before they can kill again, but I don't think it would hurt to talk more about this case before we do.

This post doesn't say much. I don't know why we'd stay on talking about the case though. We had two claimed scum...

That's pretty much everything. One last thing I'd like to point out: Commander stated that he though cult had more than 4. If he had been right, we'd have lost by now. If there was still any doubt about him, it should be gone by now.

I'm sticking with my vote where it is, mostly because of the reasons here and the fact that his post have been sparse. (@Rodion, I did say the recruiter would be active, but as Mets pointed out he's been reading along. That all that's really necessary for the recruiter to be informed.)

@ Mets: So why do you think Victor lied if you were so sure it wasn't a scumtell?

[Metsfanmax]

I couldn't figure it out then and I still can't figure it out. There could be a number of role restrictions that made him do it, or maybe he just knows something the rest of us don't. I was just trying to argue that while the lie was interesting, it didn't point to him being part of either faction.

The first quote of mine that you bring up is antithetical to your point. Let's say I am the cult recruiter. Why would I make it obvious by doubting C9's story? What does suggesting that he is possibly not pro-town gain me? I would venture that it would only serve to raise suspicion on me, and therefore doesn't make sense as an action on my part.

[safariguy5]

I couldn't figure it out then and I still can't figure it out. There could be a number of role restrictions that made him do it, or maybe he just knows something the rest of us don't. I was just trying to argue that while the lie was interesting, it didn't point to him being part of either faction.

The first quote of mine that you bring up is antithetical to your point. Let's say I am the cult recruiter. Why would I make it obvious by doubting C9's story? What does suggesting that he is possibly not pro-town gain me? I would venture that it would only serve to raise suspicion on me, and therefore doesn't make sense as an action on my part.

WIFOM argument. Raising suspicion or not raising suspicion on yourself doesn't prove one way or another what your alignment is. It's circular reasoning.

And with all of mafia dead, as I said about Victor, town has no reason to lie. Lynch all liars is something most of us subscribe to, and he lied. We all gave him a chance to explain himself, and with a possible no lynch looming, he didn't do so in a timely manner and was DKed for it.

[Metsfanmax]

I couldn't figure it out then and I still can't figure it out. There could be a number of role restrictions that made him do it, or maybe he just knows something the rest of us don't. I was just trying to argue that while the lie was interesting, it didn't point to him being part of either faction.

The first quote of mine that you bring up is antithetical to your point. Let's say I am the cult recruiter. Why would I make it obvious by doubting C9's story? What does suggesting that he is possibly not pro-town gain me? I would venture that it would only serve to raise suspicion on me, and therefore doesn't make sense as an action on my part.

WIFOM argument. Raising suspicion or not raising suspicion on yourself doesn't prove one way or another what your alignment is. It's circular reasoning.

That's exactly my argument. It doesn't prove what my alignment is, yet pcm was using it as evidence that I'm cult.

And with all of mafia dead, as I said about Victor, town has no reason to lie. Lynch all liars is something most of us subscribe to, and he lied. We all gave him a chance to explain himself, and with a possible no lynch looming, he didn't do so in a timely manner and was DKed for it.

Yes, clearly town has no reason to lie. Did you miss the day scene a few posts ago btw?

[safariguy5]

Sorry, I didn't clarify why Victor might want to lie if mafia were still alive.

He could have thought that he was important to town (and he was, although we didn't know it) and he didn't want to set himself up as a possible target for mafia. Under this scenario, I could conceivably see how he would want to fake his name/powers to try to influence mafia to bump him lower on the NK list. There are certain situations where a townie might lie, and I could see that to be true.

However, since there were no mafia left and no kills (implying no SKer either), I don't see why he would have faked his name and then not given any reason for doing so.

[safariguy5]

I couldn't figure it out then and I still can't figure it out. There could be a number of role restrictions that made him do it, or maybe he just knows something the rest of us don't. I was just trying to argue that while the lie was interesting, it didn't point to him being part of either faction.

The first quote of mine that you bring up is antithetical to your point. Let's say I am the cult recruiter. Why would I make it obvious by doubting C9's story? What does suggesting that he is possibly not pro-town gain me? I would venture that it would only serve to raise suspicion on me, and therefore doesn't make sense as an action on my part.

WIFOM argument. Raising suspicion or not raising suspicion on yourself doesn't prove one way or another what your alignment is. It's circular reasoning.

That's exactly my argument. It doesn't prove what my alignment is, yet pcm was using it as evidence that I'm cult.

And with all of mafia dead, as I said about Victor, town has no reason to lie. Lynch all liars is something most of us subscribe to, and he lied. We all gave him a chance to explain himself, and with a possible no lynch looming, he didn't do so in a timely manner and was DKed for it.

Yes, clearly town has no reason to lie. Did you miss the day scene a few posts ago btw?

Fastposted.

He didn't lie about his role, he liked about his rolename, and a freaking SoC mod at that. I could understand if he claimed some other mod, but I'm pretty sure everyone knows at this point SoC mods are the cult faction yet he claims one of them.

And the WIFOM statement doesn't clear you as town either. Although as nagerous would say: Silence is Scummy!

[safariguy5]

I couldn't figure it out then and I still can't figure it out. There could be a number of role restrictions that made him do it, or maybe he just knows something the rest of us don't. I was just trying to argue that while the lie was interesting, it didn't point to him being part of either faction.

The first quote of mine that you bring up is antithetical to your point. Let's say I am the cult recruiter. Why would I make it obvious by doubting C9's story? What does suggesting that he is possibly not pro-town gain me? I would venture that it would only serve to raise suspicion on me, and therefore doesn't make sense as an action on my part.

WIFOM argument. Raising suspicion or not raising suspicion on yourself doesn't prove one way or another what your alignment is. It's circular reasoning.

That's exactly my argument. It doesn't prove what my alignment is, yet pcm was using it as evidence that I'm cult.

And with all of mafia dead, as I said about Victor, town has no reason to lie. Lynch all liars is something most of us subscribe to, and he lied. We all gave him a chance to explain himself, and with a possible no lynch looming, he didn't do so in a timely manner and was DKed for it.

Yes, clearly town has no reason to lie. Did you miss the day scene a few posts ago btw?

Fastposted.

He didn't lie about his role, he lied about his rolename, and a freaking SoC mod at that. I could understand if he claimed some other mod, but I'm pretty sure everyone knows at this point SoC mods are the cult faction yet he claims one of them.

And the WIFOM statement doesn't clear you as town either. Although as nagerous would say: Silence is Scummy!

EBWOP

[Metsfanmax]

He could have thought that he was important to town (and he was, although we didn't know it) and he didn't want to set himself up as a possible target for mafia. Under this scenario, I could conceivably see how he would want to fake his name/powers to try to influence mafia to bump him lower on the NK list. There are certain situations where a townie might lie, and I could see that to be true.

This logic applies equally well to the cult. I assume you are reasoning that by deliberately leaving out that he's Andy, the mafia would continue to look for the real Andy under the assumption that he has a more important role than the mayor. Cult would look at it the same way -- sure, switching "mpjh" to their side can help, but it wouldn't help as much as switching over a real power role to their side.

[safariguy5]

He could have thought that he was important to town (and he was, although we didn't know it) and he didn't want to set himself up as a possible target for mafia. Under this scenario, I could conceivably see how he would want to fake his name/powers to try to influence mafia to bump him lower on the NK list. There are certain situations where a townie might lie, and I could see that to be true.

This logic applies equally well to the cult. I assume you are reasoning that by deliberately leaving out that he's Andy, the mafia would continue to look for the real Andy under the assumption that he has a more important role than the mayor. Cult would look at it the same way -- sure, switching "mpjh" to their side can help, but it wouldn't help as much as switching over a real power role to their side.

Except as I said, mpjh implies he's already cult as mpjh is a SoC mod (and has been for some time). I would have thought he would claim like a tourney mod or a suggs mod or something not clearly cult aligned.

[Metsfanmax]

He could have thought that he was important to town (and he was, although we didn't know it) and he didn't want to set himself up as a possible target for mafia. Under this scenario, I could conceivably see how he would want to fake his name/powers to try to influence mafia to bump him lower on the NK list. There are certain situations where a townie might lie, and I could see that to be true.

This logic applies equally well to the cult. I assume you are reasoning that by deliberately leaving out that he's Andy, the mafia would continue to look for the real Andy under the assumption that he has a more important role than the mayor. Cult would look at it the same way -- sure, switching "mpjh" to their side can help, but it wouldn't help as much as switching over a real power role to their side.

Except as I said, mpjh implies he's already cult as mpjh is a SoC mod (and has been for some time). I would have thought he would claim like a tourney mod or a suggs mod or something not clearly cult aligned.

So your argument is that Victor tried to stop the cult accusations against him by picking the name of a character that would ostensibly be part of the cult, and this is therefore evidence that he was in fact cult?

I'm not convinced.

[safariguy5]

He could have thought that he was important to town (and he was, although we didn't know it) and he didn't want to set himself up as a possible target for mafia. Under this scenario, I could conceivably see how he would want to fake his name/powers to try to influence mafia to bump him lower on the NK list. There are certain situations where a townie might lie, and I could see that to be true.

This logic applies equally well to the cult. I assume you are reasoning that by deliberately leaving out that he's Andy, the mafia would continue to look for the real Andy under the assumption that he has a more important role than the mayor. Cult would look at it the same way -- sure, switching "mpjh" to their side can help, but it wouldn't help as much as switching over a real power role to their side.

Except as I said, mpjh implies he's already cult as mpjh is a SoC mod (and has been for some time). I would have thought he would claim like a tourney mod or a suggs mod or something not clearly cult aligned.

So your argument is that Victor tried to stop the cult accusations against him by picking the name of a character that would ostensibly be part of the cult, and this is therefore evidence that he was in fact cult?

I'm not convinced.

No, I'm saying he wasn't unfairly lynched due to unfounded accusations. He was town and he deliberately chose a cult associated mod to claim, gave no justification, and we were forced to DK him on the off chance that he was cult and WIFOMing us or something.

If he had claimed Andy right from the beginning, we wouldn't be in this position now. However, this is not grounds for you to wag the finger at everyone and say "Well I thought he was town, shame on you all for killing him." Given the circumstances, the DK was not excessive to me.

[Metsfanmax]

I've thought about this and honestly, all this is unnecessarily complicating the matter. The only thing that really matters right now is what was pointed out earlier -- there are 9 players, and it seems to be widely agreed upon that there are 5 town and 4 cult playing. It is definitely imperative for the town to figure out who is the cult recruiter and lynch him. Anyone who is in the town right now only has a 20% chance of being recruited tonight, and therefore only a 20% chance of being on the winning side if we don't lynch the recruiter. Therefore it is statistically advantageous to the town members to identify who is town straight out. We will then know exactly who the 4 cult members are, and then it remains to figure out which one of them is the recruiter. It may be difficult, but it'll be a lot easier than right now, where possibly pro-town members are pointing fingers at each other.

I'll start. I am MrBenn, town roleblocker.

[safariguy5]

I've thought about this and honestly, all this is unnecessarily complicating the matter. The only thing that really matters right now is what was pointed out earlier -- there are 9 players, and it seems to be widely agreed upon that there are 5 town and 4 cult playing. It is definitely imperative for the town to figure out who is the cult recruiter and lynch him. Anyone who is in the town right now only has a 20% chance of being recruited tonight, and therefore only a 20% chance of being on the winning side if we don't lynch the recruiter. Therefore it is statistically advantageous to the town members to identify who is town straight out. We will then know exactly who the 4 cult members are, and then it remains to figure out which one of them is the recruiter. It may be difficult, but it'll be a lot easier than right now, where possibly pro-town members are pointing fingers at each other.

I'll start. I am MrBenn, town roleblocker.

Except that the recruits still have their original roles. No matter.

I am Master Fenrir, Town Bomb.

[Mr. Squirrel]

I'll start. I am MrBenn, town roleblocker.

Were you the one who wasted my investigation?

[Metsfanmax]

I am indeed.

[Mr. Squirrel]

I am indeed.

Who else have you roleblocked? A list of every night would be best.

[Metsfanmax]

I am indeed.

Who else have you roleblocked? A list of every night would be best.

I will provide this information if it's necessary, but frankly, I don't see why it is at this juncture. The strategy I listed is the best chance the town has of winning this game. If you disagree, say so; otherwise, post your role

[Mr. Squirrel]

I am indeed.

Who else have you roleblocked? A list of every night would be best.

I will provide this information if it's necessary, but frankly, I don't see why it is at this juncture. The strategy I listed is the best chance the town has of winning this game. If you disagree, say so; otherwise, post your role

I already have provided my role and actions. If you actually read and participated more, you might have noticed it.

The reason I want your actions is because it will rule out some people as the recruiter. There has been a recruitment every night so far. That means that if you roleblocked anyone over the course of this game, then they can't be the recruiter. So yes, who you roleblocked is 'necessary at this juncture'.

[Metsfanmax]

I am indeed.

Who else have you roleblocked? A list of every night would be best.

I will provide this information if it's necessary, but frankly, I don't see why it is at this juncture. The strategy I listed is the best chance the town has of winning this game. If you disagree, say so; otherwise, post your role

I already have provided my role and actions. If you actually read and participated more, you might have noticed it.

The reason I want your actions is because it will rule out some people as the recruiter. There has been a recruitment every night so far. That means that if you roleblocked anyone over the course of this game, then they can't be the recruiter. So yes, who you roleblocked is 'necessary at this juncture'.

No, it is not, because the people I roleblocked aside from you are all now dead IIRC.

[pancakemix]

If they're dead, there's no harm. Stalling only makes you look worse, you know.

[Metsfanmax]

I'm not concerned about how I look right now. I've already stated my role without serious voting pressure and no one has counterclaimed or said they were also a town roleblocker. This increased pressure on me and not, say, safari or people who haven't roleclaimed yet is starting to look like a witch hunt.

[Metsfanmax]

Anyway, in the interests of actually moving on, the following were my choices:

N1: shieldgenerator
N2: firth4eva
N3: Mr. Squirrel
N4: No action

[Mr. Squirrel]

So its been more than 24 hours without any posting. Where is everyone?

[Metsfanmax]

As an easy guess, the cult is submarining. IIRC we supposedly have 5 or 6 known townies, as far as claims go:

Mr. Squirrel
Metsfanmax
safariguy5
Commander9/his "buddy"
pcm

This means that either C9 is actually the one with the DK, or one of the above people is lying about their alignment. We've certainly all been acting like C9 has been confirmed town for a while, but the DK of Victor doesn't particularly help his case (although it doesn't help the case of anyone claiming town either). At any rate, assuming he is town, then either he is the vig or one of us is lying.