[UNKNOWN] Mafia Day 5 - The Disappearance [Abandoned]

[strike wolf]

So now that it has been cleared up on the OMGus issue:

I stick by what I said. First off, I said as much based on what my feelings would have been when coming into the lynch. If I was someone looking to pick up on an easy lynch than I would not have wanted to start one with someone who will defend themselves very strongly. Secondly your defense left a lot to be desired but it was spirited just like it was in the Terminator mafia. That spirited defense there was able to sway some votes but there were holes in it. Same thing here you put up a defense that to me was horrible and left holes and illustrated some scummy behavior and because of it, quite a few people seem to have bought into it. It is not an easy lynch.

So now you're basically (not so) subtly OMGUSing a crapton of people, as you're saying they were unable to see through a horrible defense that had holes in it.

first of all stop playing dumb you aren't very good at it. That's an obvious ocasion where I simply failed to edit properly, if you actually read my post I am saying that people bought into it because it was spirited. I would have to idiot to even suggest it was due to it being horrible...secondly way to (very un)subtly put words in my mouth.

I understood it perfectly and I'm not playing dumb. You didn't say they bought into it because it was horrible. You said that they bought into it because it was spirited, DESPITE it being horrible.

How is that not a (not so) subtle insult? You basically said that quite a few people will be fooled by a horrible defense as long as it is done with conviction.

it is only an insult if you consider that anyone who can get fooled is a fool. I don't it happens all the time. I am merely insinuating that a spirited defense can hide a lot of problems in one's argument.

I never made any suggestion that even one person defending you was scum. After all what would be the point in that? If you are somehow telling the truth about being masoned with someone why draw attention to someone who could be your mason buddy?

Yes, you didn't. But is that a defense against something I said or just more random babbling from you? Because I've NEVER said you accused of being scum people that defended me, so please don't put words in my mouth and stop defending yourself from inexistent attacks.

seeing as this has been cleared up as a misunderstanding I do not believe there is really anything to adress.

And holes? I don't think there are any: the only things you have against me is the Gimli question and the mass-OMGUS, but those are not holes as far as I understand the definition of a hole.

. Where you suggest that scum wouldn't care about names because they know in part who is "good" based on them knowing who they are allied with. I showed how that could be untrue based on the possibility of the existance of other scum groups and pointed out that scum very likely have a better idea about the theme than town. Others have pointed out how it can help scum formulate fake claims. Some of these points I believe you never even bothered to adress.

I thought we were over that already? I said "in part", and that was just one line of an extensive argument, not to be confused with the whole argument. If I recall correctly, you showed that a nameclaim could help scum (and I showed how it could help town): in the end, your opinion was the risk didn't compensate the reward, but that's just your opinion. You can't consider that a "hole" unless you want to back it up with in-depth maths, just a different strategical approach.

and I am pretty sxure that without knowing how the game is balanced, the math equation is void as you cannot accurately calculate the risk vs reward in a scenario with 1000 variables. Basic science shows us that an experiment can not be adequately tested when there are a multitude of uncontrolled variables. Your math equation was fancy but it has no real bearing.

[strike wolf]

That being said OmGus is pretty much used in any scenario where someone votes or foses someone for throwing suspicion their way.

Also I am going to try to reread through the thread. I may or may not respond to anything happening currently before I am done which I am aiming for in the next 24 hours.

[Rodion]

There's a difference between getting fooled by a defense and getting fooled by what you called a horrible defense: the former happens all the time and there's no shame in it; the latter, well, I'll let everyone think what they want, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone said I failed to realize that a case was bogus when it was horribly defended.

And we agree about the part in which the formula can't be applied. That's exactly why you can't say your opinion on risk/reward of the Gimli nameclaim is better than mine (neither I can say that mine is better than yours). It is, however, enough to show that there is not a "hole" in my defense, just differing opinions that can't be pondered.

[DoomYoshi]

sigh...

unvote vote strike

[freezie]

And we agree about the part in which the formula can't be applied. That's exactly why you can't say your opinion on risk/reward of the Gimli nameclaim is better than mine (neither I can say that mine is better than yours). It is, however, enough to show that there is not a "hole" in my defense, just differing opinions that can't be pondered.

Maths have nothing to do here without solid evidences and knowledge on the setup. At least both of you understand this.

Now, let me put my grain of salt here, and sadly it's closer to Strike's oppinion than Rodion:

If you're gonna do something as a townie, always based your action on beeing favorable to town over scum. If an action can go both way, it's hampering the town. SImply because scum COULD have the advantage.

You could mathematically be right at one point, however if there is a chance scum is advantaged, then don't post it. period.
( granted it doesn't always happen this way, but that's how mafia is played...However there is obvious textbook cases, like the gimli comment )



Can we now move on? I'll summarize my thinking for today for now:

My FoS list:

Violet: Admitting to have an hidden agenda against me for no clear reason, not caring about the game in general, skimming and heratic posting.
Doomyoshi: Word twisting and high level skimming.
Safariguy: Contradicting himself between day 1 and day 2 concerning his behaviour related to inactives.
Bleed green:....while his defense made sense, Rodion's case had water and bleed was indeed caught up in a lie.


Unvote Ever again..

Deadline is in 2 days, and like many I'll doubt we get something going anytime soon...I'll let the towns decide once more what their thinking are and I'll cast my final vote tomorow.

[gimli1990]

i will not be on tomorrow just letting you all know.

[safariguy5]

Before I even answer that part of your argument...I really want to know. Have you read the rules and terms of mafia thread?

Yes.

OMGUS stands for "Oh, my God! You suck!"

As far as I understand, it means you're surprised at how someone can be so off about something, one of the possibilities being that they can only be so clueless due to being scum (another possibility being that they indeed do suck).

Oh man, this just won't stop. I don't know if we want to "test" Rodion's claim, but at this point, it seems like the only possible lynch we're going to get out of today.

Unfortunately. Mostly due to inactivity. That and the fact that our most famous "inactive hunter" (you ) has been suspected for pressuring inactives and consequently was kind of forced to stop doing it.

We still have some time, though, if people want to stop by.

Thank you Rodion, I was trying to be subtle about it, but I'm glad someone noticed that people took issue with what I was doing and I am trying to play more to what target, freezie and ndrs want.

That said, I really think Yoshi is skimming to high hell and jumping on wagons with no provocation whatsoever. In lieu of target, who seems to have a vendetta against me, I will

unvote vote Yoshi for wagon hopping, skimming, and generally not being helpful.

[DoomYoshi]

Before I even answer that part of your argument...I really want to know. Have you read the rules and terms of mafia thread?

Yes.

OMGUS stands for "Oh, my God! You suck!"

As far as I understand, it means you're surprised at how someone can be so off about something, one of the possibilities being that they can only be so clueless due to being scum (another possibility being that they indeed do suck).

Oh man, this just won't stop. I don't know if we want to "test" Rodion's claim, but at this point, it seems like the only possible lynch we're going to get out of today.

Unfortunately. Mostly due to inactivity. That and the fact that our most famous "inactive hunter" (you ) has been suspected for pressuring inactives and consequently was kind of forced to stop doing it.

We still have some time, though, if people want to stop by.

Thank you Rodion, I was trying to be subtle about it, but I'm glad someone noticed that people took issue with what I was doing and I am trying to play more to what target, freezie and ndrs want.

That said, I really think Yoshi is skimming to high hell and jumping on wagons with no provocation whatsoever. In lieu of target, who seems to have a vendetta against me, I will

unvote vote Yoshi for wagon hopping, skimming, and generally not being helpful.

When have I ever skimmed in this thread? Freezie called me a skimmer since I called him on the terrible explanations. You are clearly skimming if you think I am vote hopping without provocation. There was not one case of skimming. I am sorry that I have not spent enough time on the internet to understand ESL, typed at a furious and frustrated pace, riddled with typos to boot.

[safariguy5]

sigh...

unvote vote strike

Well than wth is this? No justification and bandwagon hopping?

[strike wolf]

Actually you seem to be the one skimming right now safari...doom voted me earlier (I believe he is revoting now because he forgot to unvote first) on reasons that I have since rebutted. I would have liked to see him at least respond to my rebuttal but he is not just hopping on now and nor do I see the supposed skim as actually skimming and more what seems to be a genuine misunderstanding based on a miscommunication. I wouldn't say doom has struck me as town but nor would. I say the two points on him right now have much weight as far as building a case on him nor has what I have seen struck me as overly scummy.

Still rereading should be done witthin the next two hours.

[Commander9]

Since the activity spiked up, I may consider extending the deadline until Tuesday or Wednesday, but not more. We'll see.

[Fircoal]

That being said OmGus is pretty much used in any scenario where someone votes or foses someone for throwing suspicion their way.

Also I am going to try to reread through the thread. I may or may not respond to anything happening currently before I am done which I am aiming for in the next 24 hours.

Although I applaud the re-reading and getting of new information. I'm a bit skeptical about the time...

[Fircoal]

Before I even answer that part of your argument...I really want to know. Have you read the rules and terms of mafia thread?

Yes.

OMGUS stands for "Oh, my God! You suck!"

As far as I understand, it means you're surprised at how someone can be so off about something, one of the possibilities being that they can only be so clueless due to being scum (another possibility being that they indeed do suck).

Oh man, this just won't stop. I don't know if we want to "test" Rodion's claim, but at this point, it seems like the only possible lynch we're going to get out of today.

Unfortunately. Mostly due to inactivity. That and the fact that our most famous "inactive hunter" (you ) has been suspected for pressuring inactives and consequently was kind of forced to stop doing it.

We still have some time, though, if people want to stop by.

Thank you Rodion, I was trying to be subtle about it, but I'm glad someone noticed that people took issue with what I was doing and I am trying to play more to what target, freezie and ndrs want.

That said, I really think Yoshi is skimming to high hell and jumping on wagons with no provocation whatsoever. In lieu of target, who seems to have a vendetta against me, I will

unvote vote Yoshi for wagon hopping, skimming, and generally not being helpful.

Why would you be playing to what others want? Scum way more than town want to survive. A townie that is seen as scummy but roots out lots of information in the process does more than a careful town who stays the whole game but does nothing.

[strike wolf]

Please extend the deadline

I have reread the thread and some preliminary thoughts:

First off I have some major suspicions about edoc. He first spent pretty much all of day one and all of the serious part of day 1 bemoaning shield's presence in the game. His actions did not involve any real scum hunting and he really didn't even get that far into the reasons why shield should be lynched. Day 2 he has been a bit more active and come up with two cases but has otherwise sparsely at best about other cases and while spending the early part of day one participating in the lover fllavor spec has since bemoaned further flavor spec saying attention should be spent on scum hunting which I find i ronic considering his (lack of) day 1 contributions and the fact he has only made a point of forming any kind of case and questioning only two players today.

Are you getting a sense that he has reassigned his gender too?

I always had freezie figured for a chick too. There is reason I have my gender displayed....

Anyway. Went back through the thread. Damn did we spam it up, there was nothing of substance in there hardly at all and then today we have 7 pages of questions about love triangles.

This part is just ironic seeing his day 1 actions...

Furthermore...

@ freezie and doom: excluding this game how many games have you played with aog? Especially more recent games.

@bleed: the post that has gained so much controversy based on rodion's argument, I want you to specifically explain what you meant by saying if this is a "classic"

I have more I would like to get into but it involves more in depth reading on certain parts of the thread which with limited time I do not know if I can really devote more energy to rereading right now.

[strike wolf]

There's a difference between getting fooled by a defense and getting fooled by what you called a horrible defense: the former happens all the time and there's no shame in it; the latter, well, I'll let everyone think what they want, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone said I failed to realize that a case was bogus when it was horribly defended.

And we agree about the part in which the formula can't be applied. That's exactly why you can't say your opinion on risk/reward of the Gimli nameclaim is better than mine (neither I can say that mine is better than yours). It is, however, enough to show that there is not a "hole" in my defense, just differing opinions that can't be pondered.

You'd be surprised at how often good players (many better than I am) have been fooled by a player whose made a bad defense...it can happen for several reasons and my point about it being spirited is that it can hide holes.

On the math thing: I would agree with this except even with your disclaimer you tried to show it as a reason why name claims are not that important. I proved it wrong and you settled for it being a difference in opinion. I still consider the fact you initially tried to use the math to support your point to still be a hole.

[safariguy5]

Before I even answer that part of your argument...I really want to know. Have you read the rules and terms of mafia thread?

Yes.

OMGUS stands for "Oh, my God! You suck!"

As far as I understand, it means you're surprised at how someone can be so off about something, one of the possibilities being that they can only be so clueless due to being scum (another possibility being that they indeed do suck).

Oh man, this just won't stop. I don't know if we want to "test" Rodion's claim, but at this point, it seems like the only possible lynch we're going to get out of today.

Unfortunately. Mostly due to inactivity. That and the fact that our most famous "inactive hunter" (you ) has been suspected for pressuring inactives and consequently was kind of forced to stop doing it.

We still have some time, though, if people want to stop by.

Thank you Rodion, I was trying to be subtle about it, but I'm glad someone noticed that people took issue with what I was doing and I am trying to play more to what target, freezie and ndrs want.

That said, I really think Yoshi is skimming to high hell and jumping on wagons with no provocation whatsoever. In lieu of target, who seems to have a vendetta against me, I will

unvote vote Yoshi for wagon hopping, skimming, and generally not being helpful.

Why would you be playing to what others want? Scum way more than town want to survive. A townie that is seen as scummy but roots out lots of information in the process does more than a careful town who stays the whole game but does nothing.

I thought the reason you wanted to lynch naxus was because you thought he misplayed doctor in Firefly. I'm not saying that all townies should act cautious, but certain ones should. And I'd be one of the certain ones. Which makes pressure on me worrying enough to at least consider allegations against me. And if freezie, target or ndrs is mafia, they must be jumping for joy right now.

[targetman377]

@ Ok Safiguy i UNVOTE Since you have been adding more to the conversation and you seem to not being doing what i thought was suspicious. Also latly i find you not scummy at all. I am sorry if it felt i had vendetta against you!

@ strike and rodin I feel both of you could be scum just trying to spam so much about a little argument that may or may not turn out to be legit. Either way you have turned off many people to this game and i think that is why the lack of coming together on a lych also

@ EVERYBODY WE NEED TO LYNCH SOMEONE!!!! it just benefits mafia if we don't

I think in light of how little bleed has said when the argument was going on proves he is scum just trying to hid. That is just my guess and gut feeling.

Bleed has been has not really said all that much compared to others about the case on him had much to say in his defense of all that i saw.

so VOTE BLEED

[Fircoal]

Before I even answer that part of your argument...I really want to know. Have you read the rules and terms of mafia thread?

Yes.

OMGUS stands for "Oh, my God! You suck!"

As far as I understand, it means you're surprised at how someone can be so off about something, one of the possibilities being that they can only be so clueless due to being scum (another possibility being that they indeed do suck).

Oh man, this just won't stop. I don't know if we want to "test" Rodion's claim, but at this point, it seems like the only possible lynch we're going to get out of today.

Unfortunately. Mostly due to inactivity. That and the fact that our most famous "inactive hunter" (you ) has been suspected for pressuring inactives and consequently was kind of forced to stop doing it.

We still have some time, though, if people want to stop by.

Thank you Rodion, I was trying to be subtle about it, but I'm glad someone noticed that people took issue with what I was doing and I am trying to play more to what target, freezie and ndrs want.

That said, I really think Yoshi is skimming to high hell and jumping on wagons with no provocation whatsoever. In lieu of target, who seems to have a vendetta against me, I will

unvote vote Yoshi for wagon hopping, skimming, and generally not being helpful.

Why would you be playing to what others want? Scum way more than town want to survive. A townie that is seen as scummy but roots out lots of information in the process does more than a careful town who stays the whole game but does nothing.

I thought the reason you wanted to lynch naxus was because you thought he misplayed doctor in Firefly. I'm not saying that all townies should act cautious, but certain ones should. And I'd be one of the certain ones. Which makes pressure on me worrying enough to at least consider allegations against me. And if freezie, target or ndrs is mafia, they must be jumping for joy right now.

It was more/different than that. Also I see what you're saying. Yes there are certain townies that have to be cautious.

[gimli1990]

i am having a hard time priecing together any good cases on really anyone. that being there are 2 players in my opinion are a little suspect.

FOS at Rodian and Edoc. Rodian mainly for trying to get me to name claim. Edoc strike wolf brings the arguement better then about him switching gears from Day 1 to Gay 2 i am just unsure what else to say. ( or am i missing something )

[DoomYoshi]

Strike, you blew the Rodion case way out of proportion. End of story. I am voting you for the action of blowing it out of proportion, not for your reason to do so.

[strike wolf]

Strike, you blew the Rodion case way out of proportion. End of story. I am voting you for the action of blowing it out of proportion, not for your reason to do so.

Yeah, well that's just, like, your opinion man. I have said at least once if he had came up with a passable defense I would have moved on and I will admit if he is telling the truth some of what struck me as scummy initially with the overcocky attitude and dismissal of it may have been due to his pr. But the case has evolved beyond that. I do not feel that a lot of his actions even possibly made in terms of his alleged pr are justifiable from that stand point. A lot of his detailed reasons for not putting weight on name claims did not hold water with me and the way he has attacked some of the arguments against him have struck me as scummy. So now he is claiming to have a one shot governor's ability and I still find him amongst those who acted scummy and I really don't see a better use coming out of his ability (in my opinion a governor who stops a lynch tends to do more harm than good to town probably 8 out of 10 times, so if he stops the lynch of someone he knows is a townie than I feel that is best) than for him to use it to confirm his claim.

Now are you going to answer my question or ignore its existance?

[DoomYoshi]

I am his (AoG's) mod in Pokemon and I think he was in Official Mafia too. Why do you ask?

I disagree with a few things Rodion has done. His case wasn't entirely rock solid. However, it was Bleed's choice to answer. The math argument was silly, but I think that Rodion isn't used to roles which have sideplot storylines yet.

If he stops my lynch, that would be a better choice:)

Also you mentioned that a spirited defense can hide holes... the holes in Terminator were obvious a mile away though, so I don`t know where you came up with this idea. On the one hand, a spirited defense has a lot of words, and things can get lost in the back and forth (see freezie and me arguing a single point earlier; that single point was almost impossible to bring up). On the other hand, a spirited defense can attract a lot more attention and require closer reading.

Luckily for you, I have had a change of heart and I have decided that it is not right to vote somebody for just presenting a case. If you had never brought forth a case, no discussion would have resulted. Unfortunately, the experienced players are probably not going to fall into simple scumtell traps, so I am not sure how else I can get you.

unvote

[Fircoal]

I am his (AoG's) mod in Pokemon and I think he was in Official Mafia too. Why do you ask?

I disagree with a few things Rodion has done. His case wasn't entirely rock solid. However, it was Bleed's choice to answer. The math argument was silly, but I think that Rodion isn't used to roles which have sideplot storylines yet.

If he stops my lynch, that would be a better choice:)

Also you mentioned that a spirited defense can hide holes... the holes in Terminator were obvious a mile away though, so I don`t know where you came up with this idea. On the one hand, a spirited defense has a lot of words, and things can get lost in the back and forth (see freezie and me arguing a single point earlier; that single point was almost impossible to bring up). On the other hand, a spirited defense can attract a lot more attention and require closer reading.

Luckily for you, I have had a change of heart and I have decided that it is not right to vote somebody for just presenting a case. If you had never brought forth a case, no discussion would have resulted. Unfortunately, the experienced players are probably not going to fall into simple scumtell traps, so I am not sure how else I can get you.

unvote

The case is much more than just bring up a case. Also you seem quite quick to backdown when not much has changed...

[targetman377]

SO WHO ARE WE VOTEING FOR???

i don't feel we should lynch the Rodin but we need to lynch some one

i say Bleed. mainly cause well the case was brought up he said very little about it.

[freezie]

@ freezie and doom: excluding this game how many games have you played with aog? Especially more recent games.

I think I know why you're asking that, but outside of this one, pokemon is the only other game I played with AoG...Or the only one I remember, at least.

This game was the first one.


I feel we're going to have a no lynch unless we extend the deadline..On my part my vote stays on Doom.