[Endgame] Firefly Mafia

[DoomYoshi]

I was in a hurry and wanted to put out at least a single vote (other than the joke vote on tails). Now that I have had time to reread, I see that perhaps it was a mistake. The day was 99% likely to end in no lynch anyways. Voting for Violet doesn't make sense either. She was totally loopy earlier today, but has now started making complete sense. I am not going to fos anyone on her wagon or anything since I see where they are coming from, but I am not going to support a lynch of her at this moment.

You have noticed that I am against lynches. I missed the first two wagons. I would have been right there with the first one, but the one on fircoal wasn't that great either. Shag did a good job of defending himself. Maybe I am against lynches on people who put up good defenses. I already claimed who I think are the real scum here but the lynch on Iliad, right now, is more likely than a lynch on either of you.

[edocsil]

Scene

Everyone was tired. The crew of Serenity had been up for days on end, on full alert because they knew the Alliance was hard on their heels. Eventually however they needed to rest. They found an isolated moon in the outer rim and cut the engines. They would be safe in the dark and invisible to the Alliance scans, or so they hoped. Little did they know, many of them would like not survive the night.

Night 1

You have 72 hours to send in actions.

[Anarkistsdream]

Change the thread name, bubba.

[edocsil]

Change the thread name, bubba.

fine fine fine... always so picky AD

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I started watching this show because my new roomie has netflix. I've never seen it, but he was telling me it was really good a while back, just getting to watch it now. I've only gotten so far as the first 2 eps, the third one's video kept fucking up.

But yeah, I'm definitely enjoying it.

Some nerd info which I actually read about before watching Firefly:

The Mare's Leg rifle that Zoe uses is a prop from The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. (a hilarious show--it's got Bruce motherfuckin' Campbell). Apparently it's also supposed to be an homage to Steve McQueen from Wanted: Dead or Alive.

-Tails

[strike wolf]

I actually think the early episodes were the best. The latter ones were good too but you definitely saw some of the changes the network made them make as it went on. Most of them were subtle but one was major...

[edocsil]

All roles are in, but my time management sucks. Night will go on till i get back from work today.

[Anarkistsdream]

All roles are in, but my time management sucks. Night will go on till i get back from work today.

God, Edoc... Time management is for the birds... Get your priorities straight!

[edocsil]

The night was silent. Malcolm was restless, he could barely sleep he expected the Alliance to attack at any time. Then he felt it, there was an intruder on his ship. Pistol in hand Mal jumped from his berth. "Wash, Zoe, get on deck, we've company." Without waiting for the the others Mal continued on, eager to remove whatever threatened his crew. Mal slowly approached the cargo bay. Someone was rustling through the bay, looking for something. Aiming his gun Mal prepared to fire on the intruder. Moments before he was to pull the trigger Wash charged into the cargo bay searching for Mal. "Mal! Who is after us? do we need to --- He never finished, the intruder pulled a gun from his space suit and fired three rounds, centered on Wash's chest. Before Mal could act the intruder fled out the way he came from the cargo bay hatch. "Doc! Mal screamed, we need you!" Seconds later another ship could be heard taking off into low orbit. Rushing to Wash's side Mal could already tell it was to late, his dear friend was fading quickly. "Mal", he whispered, "Make sure Zoe doesn't follow me too soon. Now I can truly soar."

Mal gently laid down the hand of his friend, the flesh already cooling. Hoping to find clues as to who the intruder was he began so search around. Some black and red leather was torn from the suit of the intruder and something clicked in his mind. "I know this man, but where are the others, why are they not here by now, and more importantly how will Zoe survive?"


Elsewhere in the ship Death too stalked the night. A small blue device activated itself in Simon's room, it's piercing cry bringing swift death to those in the room, and awaking all the others.

Hoban Washburne (Talapus) Town Busdriver and Lover has died
Simon Tam (Naxus) Doc has died

[safariguy5]

Sonnuva Bitch. I'm Zoe, Town Vig. And yeah, I'm gonna die after tomorrow night. Sigh...and I really wanted to NK someone too, my first vig role.

First of all, is there anyone I should NK tonight, as we're not going to be able to use my ability after next night?

[Anarkistsdream]

I was roleblocked, so they obviously have a mafia roleblocker on their side or a dumb townie did it.

[strike wolf]

I would aim for vio or shaggy maybe doomyoshi. I have a case on someone but it is going to take a while to put the posts back together (I had it mostly written out but lost it).

@ nark: Possibly fircoal...I would assume that the mafia role blocker if there was one was preoccupied with blocking naxus.

[ShaggyDan]

Some thoughts on the scene:

Mal gently laid down the hand of his friend, the flesh already cooling. Hoping to find clues as to who the intruder was he began so search around. Some black and red leather was torn from the suit of the intruder and something clicked in his mind. "I know this man, but where are the others, why are they not here by now, and more importantly how will Zoe survive?"

Sounds like the bounty hunter from the final episode? Jubal Early as far as I can read on wiki. Possibly a SK or trying to find a certain person / people to kill?

Elsewhere in the ship Death too stalked the night. A small blue device activated itself in Simon's room, it's piercing cry bringing swift death to those in the room, and awaking all the others.

So this kill is pretty obviously the blue hands. So I think that means we've got an alliance mafia (which I assumed before, but didn't discount the idea of a possible different mafia). In a game this size I imagine a 3 person mafia maybe? The two blue hands and another alliance general or something?

Not terribly useful, but some information none-the-less. We now know we have 2 different killing parties. From the flavour of the characters it is possible they are working together or looking to target certain people.

As for today, unless someone counter-claims Saf, it's good knowing that someone could possibly kill tonight. Though maybe we should be discreet about saying who, if mafia have their own roleblocker or busdriver then they would only stop or switch the kill to help them. In the case of a confirmed vig with one kill before dieing tonight I'd be careful to not name my target as to not get stopped. Though I guess it would stop them from targetting an investigative role. I'm close to certain Zoey would be town so between him and Inara we have some people whose opinions we can know are not malicious.

Will re-read and have a case over the next few days, still suspicious of Nark, but it looks like illiad / vio is a more present case so I'll have a read over and post some thoughts soon.

[ShaggyDan]

Also, it looks like Talapus was pushing the case on Violet pretty hard. So I guess that means either she was scum wanting to get rid of one of her attackers, or scum killed Tal to make Vio look suspicious. I'll have more opinions (and stop IIOA) after a proper re-read, don't have the time to be thorough at the moment.

[Talapus]

NIGHT 1!!!!! ARRRRRRGHHHHHHH, Avenge my death townies.

[Commander9]

It's really late, so I'm here to just make a quick post. By the looks of it, as already mentioned, we have a SK (Jubal) and Alliance Mafia, who are *NOT* connected. A very, very bad night for the town - a lover lost (and judging from Safari's post vig also coming afterwards) and the doctor both dead. I definitely hope there was a watcher who could have tracked someone and got one of the two kills, but overall this is a very bad start.

@ Vio versus talapus: It is possible that she could have done it, but I'd say it's probably more likely that she was framed (That's just my opinion).

[VioIet]

NIGHT 1!!!!! ARRRRRRGHHHHHHH, Avenge my death townies.

We will avenge your death!

Especially because you dying, makes me look even more guilty. I do believe that mafia is trying to frame me, as they knew i might be a hot topic of discussion today.

Also, we certainly have a SK out there, if Saf indeed didn't use his night kill.

And Commander, I also hope that there would be info or leads to go on- but i wouldn't encourage to call out our cops this soon. They probably won't come out anyway, unless they come up with a guilty investigation/result.

[strike wolf]

IDK, I thought it was funny. I wouldn't have done it myself, because this was the likely outcome, but it did make me chuckle.

<<<---- This.

unvote vote naxus, he's been rather quiet about all this bandwagonning.

And I somewhat agree with this.

Unvote. Vote naxus as what he had done he "tried" to look pro-town when it was rather obvious that those were still joke votes.

As far as no chance of me actually being lynched, first I agree that naxus' reasoning that three mafia could speed hammer me was far fetched. Other than that I would say yeah my speed lynch was unlikely but not impossible and putting someone (me in this case) at l-3 stood out to me as much as anything. I would never say that being lynched on a joke wagon is impossible, I have heard of people who were the joke wagon and became the main wagon for various reasons and fircoal said earlier that he has been mynched day 1 off of a joke wagon. So I find putting someone in that position where the joke wagon is on the verge of normal claim territory something to pay close attention to. So yeah I found sheep suspicious and it is a path I wanted to discourage. Call it two birds with one stone.

To be fair, I wouldn't mind pressuring both, but I think that Naxus' statement stood out much more than Sheeps.

Fairly decent case on Illy, but I'm going to stick with my current vote as I think it has more basis.

I'm iffy on the soundman case. Admittedly I don't always do my due diligence about how many votes are on a person. I think it's a case of mistaking the vote count, although he could have tried to pass it off as an accidental miscount. If the naxus case doesn't pan out, then I'm willing to take a closer look at soundman, but I think hear what naxus has to say is more important at this point.

Soundman's vote while scummy since he is to my knowledge a new player I don't think it was more condemning than Naxus' actions so far. It would make a decent back up case if Naxus flips town but for now i say stay the course.

Agreed with Safari and strike - I think this is more so due to inexperience rather than anything else. Naxus, time to claim,

Commander: I want to bandwagon and then submarine but I have to stay on the radar. I know I will bandwagon on a weak reason and then just make some posts sounding like I am helping contribute without saying much.

All included, I think Fir could actually be a lyncher and Jayne could fit that role perfectly (He absolutely hates Simon).

As few others stated, I don't really see any possibilities for such a role in such a game. The only remote possibility I can see would be reavers, but I highly doubt that.

Cult is unlikely (though I guess one could make an argument for the reavers). No role really fits. Though the show definitely has the potential of several win conditions.

Jayne as lyncher seems a bit far fetched to me. I think there are other roles that fit better for him a couple have already been interested and the others who were looking for him were always more interested in retrieving his psychotic mind reading sister.

I was just throwing a suggestion. As far as Jayne goes - his alignment is very ambiguous. That's one role that I'd definitely would not turn my back on.

As I stated yesterday I really feel mafia wanted to take advantage of the slight ambiguity of the Jayne role and commander is at the front of the people doing so.

I think key part was a bit of a miswording on my part. Prominent is probably a better word...so basically you are admitting to saying you are active as a defense...

Again I think this is fairly wifomy saying scum would go after the active. Lots of scum go after the newer players and inactive players who they can twist words and know won't defend themselves well. In my experience this is more one of nag's scumtell than what you are claiming in the games I have seen. I also think you have contradicted yourself about nag going after an easy target and wanting to get rid of you as an experienced active player. Experienced active players from what I know don't add up to being easy lynches.

As far as vio, she seems to be off in her own little world concerning iliad. Most of what she has written fits out of context but are inaccurate to the game but this latest attempt has been rather weak.

Pretty much summed up my thoughts. What Fir is doing right now by the looks of it is building up a defence around the fact that he has been active and has pursued lynches, but I've also seen the best scum as being active and not inactive (as someone has pointed out ). I consider Fir to be a very good player and what he's doing right now is getting my scumdar up to high. Initially, even after Naxus' alignment came out, I wasn't too suspicious, but his recent defence is just starting to make me worried.

I guess some pressure won't hurt. Unvote. Vote Fir.

Jumps on fir wagon...says more than he did on the naxus wagon all together in one post but it is nothing that hasn't already been noted.

I really don't have a lot time, but while I quickly skimmed, I saw Jayne claiming. I'll definitely reread after my finals and graduation, but I'd just likely to bring up again what I've already said.

As few others stated, I don't really see any possibilities for such a role in such a game. The only remote possibility I can see would be reavers, but I highly doubt that.

Cult is unlikely (though I guess one could make an argument for the reavers). No role really fits. Though the show definitely has the potential of several win conditions.

Jayne as lyncher seems a bit far fetched to me. I think there are other roles that fit better for him a couple have already been interested and the others who were looking for him were always more interested in retrieving his psychotic mind reading sister.

I was just throwing a suggestion. As far as Jayne goes - his alignment is very ambiguous. That's one role that I'd definitely would not turn my back on.

Personally, from seeing Nark's posts and this role, I'm calling BS and I'm 80% that he is NOT a friend of a town (3rd party at best).

More on this painting jayne as anti town stuff.

I am NOT a bomb, and would certainly not suggest lynching me if I were... The probability of mafia being the last to vote is low...

Shaggy, however, won't take a vote off of me even when EVERYONE else says it makes sense? That, I don't understand.

Now, now - to be fair, I'd probably prefer to lynch you due to all of the small things that happened. There's no one big thing that would incriminate you and I'd love to discuss this more, but due to a coming deadline and that stuff, I'd sleep much better at night with you not being around.

For someone so sure he is not town and seem to be wanting to lynch him pretty badly you are pretty hesitant on actually voting for him.

Better to see win as a dead townie then constantly have to fight every post that is made.

I totally disagree with this as well (Ironic, I know ) - first of all, if you are actually town, you are supposed to fight till the very essence ends and a dead townie won't help town at all while fighting would actually help. My dear friend, I think you misplayed this one a bit and I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this at all (as I've said Jayne's not a very good guy even before you claimed). Shoot me if I'm wrong, but I will place my vote on you as the deadline looms.

I still don't see why if you are really so convinced about his dangerous statis that you haven't already...what's so important about deadline?

Even though Nark has given up, I am not comfortable voting for a townie.

That means that if Jayne will turn out to be not pro-town, we might know where to investigate next

I hope people see this is the first time commander actually makes an accusation off of the current popular wagon or sticks his neck out a little (just enough to see the top of his head in the turtle shell).

For the record, I'm still not buying this. It could be true and legit, but it could also be manipulation (if it is, it's working - well done). In theme games like this, I prefer not to have such ambiguous characters who can easily be not pro-town.

I would disagree about it working. It drew way too much attention to him and a bandwagon. So you saying it is working is out of place in my opinion. Not to mention I did and still believe Jayne to be pro-town. So going back to the mafia taking advantage of an ambiguous role again...there it is.

Honestly I suspect that some of the people pushing for Nark's lynch right now are mafia taking advantage of the fact he has claimed a character who has questionable allegiance.

While I didn't agree fully agree with Nark analysis (if you'd like to, I can easily compile his actions from the series where he acts very amorally), but I agree that he's most likely not Mafia (my bet would be a 3rd party or SK) and mafia most likely would try to get him out.

I really don't get this part. He asserts Jayne as being a possible sk when anyone who has seen the show knows that does not fit Jayne's character at all. I can only see this as an attempt to mislead.

@ commander: sk really? Not only does that not make sense with the character, there are characters that would fit the sk role much better (reavers, Niska). Again if he was an sk he shouldn't have been so quick to role claim especially with the fact his role had already been argued as being possibly not pro town.

As far as amorally, I could make the same case for other characters on the show even on the ship. Mal Reynolds is not the most moral person in the world either, but certainly you wouldn't make a case for him being non pro town would you?

Yes, I'd say he could be a potential SK'er, although I do agree that there are better examples (There are much better than Niska as well). Well, we don't know if mafia is provided fake claims and we know that he's not extremely good at fake claiming, so he could have claimed Jayne with hopes that feel that he's pro-town... And it worked.

wifom. And you admit there are multiple better examples of sks but you still had it suggested

... Please don't tell me you're comparing Mal's and Jayne's morality? Mal might have done some a bit amoral things (like stealing), but it is clearly shown that he's a caring and good person (even if he has his own deficiencies). Jayne, on the other hand, he has been clearly shown as a thug who wants money and who cares about barely anyone (He cares about Mal, I won't argue that, but his loyalty towards everyone else is questionable at best).

his character is more complex than that I can give you an example of where he turned down money to stay loyal to Mal. Episode 1.

in summary:

Bandwagoned
Mostly stuck to popular opinion
Went after an ambiguous but in my opinion probably town role
Had some comments that appear misleading to me.
Was staying low and off the radar early in the day.

vote commander

[DoomYoshi]

Let us see what the flavour spec reveals... People who know the setting; that's your cue. Full case on Commander/strike to follow after we get some flavour spec going over with.

[DoomYoshi]

Let us see what the flavour spec reveals... People who know the setting; that's your cue. Full case on Commander/strike to follow after we get some flavour spec going over with.

Somehow I missed this entire page when I said that lol. Anyway, case on Commander to move until I have free time.

[Commander9]

And Commander, I also hope that there would be info or leads to go on- but i wouldn't encourage to call out our cops this soon. They probably won't come out anyway, unless they come up with a guilty investigation/result.

That's pretty much what I meant.

Commander: I want to bandwagon and then submarine but I have to stay on the radar. I know I will bandwagon on a weak reason and then just make some posts sounding like I am helping contribute without saying much.

Strike: I want to get Commander out of the way, because he submarined during his exams and it's an easy case to make.

As I stated yesterday I really feel mafia wanted to take advantage of the slight ambiguity of the Jayne role and commander is at the front of the people doing so.

Oh yes, him trying to sell out his crew members and mostly caring about money is just a bunch of BS. He's an

What about this: Strike trying to take advantage of ambiguity of Jayne's role and discouraging those who question his opinion. Furthermore, now that we know that he isn't a vig, there's even less possibly pro-town roles out there. Afraid that we are onto to town traitor to mafia (Alliance?).

Jumps on fir wagon...says more than he did on the naxus wagon all together in one post but it is nothing that hasn't already been noted.

I agree that you do have a point, but Fir at that time looked by far the best case and a lot more people jumped this wagon with saying much less than I did. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you on that wagon as well?

More on this painting jayne as anti town stuff.

Sorry for ruining your plans and encouraging discussions about Jayne.

For someone so sure he is not town and seem to be wanting to lynch him pretty badly you are pretty hesitant on actually voting for him.

I still don't see why if you are really so convinced about his dangerous statis that you haven't already...what's so important about deadline?

What about letting people discuss, letting Nark make his defence? Hurried lynches are NEVER good... Unless you're not pro-town

I would disagree about it working. It drew way too much attention to him and a bandwagon. So you saying it is working is out of place in my opinion. Not to mention I did and still believe Jayne to be pro-town. So going back to the mafia taking advantage of an ambiguous role again...there it is.

He didn't get lynched... And it shows it was (and is) working. I've already responded to the 2nd part above.

I really don't get this part. He asserts Jayne as being a possible sk when anyone who has seen the show knows that does not fit Jayne's character at all. I can only see this as an attempt to mislead.

I will agree here - I should have put more thought in it as there are much better choices for SK (we've already identified one). However, I do admit that I screwed up here a bit.

wifom. And you admit there are multiple better examples of sks but you still had it suggested

... Please don't tell me you're comparing Mal's and Jayne's morality? Mal might have done some a bit amoral things (like stealing), but it is clearly shown that he's a caring and good person (even if he has his own deficiencies). Jayne, on the other hand, he has been clearly shown as a thug who wants money and who cares about barely anyone (He cares about Mal, I won't argue that, but his loyalty towards everyone else is questionable at best).

his character is more complex than that I can give you an example of where he turned down money to stay loyal to Mal. Episode 1.

Oh, what about when he sold River and Simon to Alliance? What about when he betrayed his original employers for Mal? Watch any episode and pay attention to his actions. He's an ambiguous character at best.

in summary:

Bandwagoned
Mostly stuck to popular opinion
Went after an ambiguous but in my opinion probably town role
Had some comments that appear misleading to me.
Was staying low and off the radar early in the day.

vote commander

In summary:
And you weren't on both of those 2 waggons?
Aren't these 2 contradictory? If I had stuck to mostly popular opinion, why did I get out of the way to discuss and accuse Jayne? Also, I'm glad you said that you said "IN YOUR OPINION PROBABLY" - a very good statement to put down when Jayne turns up not to be a town character
What other comments than SK one did you found misleading? I agree that one of them wasn't perfect, but during my finals I was much more concentrated on them rather than thinking through for 2 hours what I'll post here.
Love the last one - yet again trying to exploit that I was taking my exams. Very nice, Strike, very nice.

[safariguy5]

Apparently a few things have changed since Wash died. I now have a one-shot Daykill. If I shoot mafia, we both die. If I shoot town, I commit suicide and the townie lives. If I shoot Malcolm, I lose lover status and revert to just a town vig.

There are two ways we can go with this I think.

1. I dunno how powerful a role Mal would be, but given that the doc is dead, I'm not sure revealing yourself would be a good idea as I'm not guaranteed protection tonight anyways.

2. The more likely option is that we use it as a townie check on someone, effectively using it as a possible 2 lynches today and definitively clearing someone as I don't really see a downside to town and a possibility of killing scum.

[strike wolf]

And Commander, I also hope that there would be info or leads to go on- but i wouldn't encourage to call out our cops this soon. They probably won't come out anyway, unless they come up with a guilty investigation/result.

That's pretty much what I meant.

Commander: I want to bandwagon and then submarine but I have to stay on the radar. I know I will bandwagon on a weak reason and then just make some posts sounding like I am helping contribute without saying much.

Strike: I want to get Commander out of the way, because he submarined during his exams and it's an easy case to make.

Easy case to make? Possible easy lynch? Hell no. You defend yourself well and aggressively. Not a case I would want to make as scum. Easier cases would be vio, shaggy, doomyoshi, sound, sheep and even potentially nark. Not to mention your behavior is different then elsewhere. Here you seemed to feel you needed to stay on radar and post occassionally but in other threads you seemed more comfortable stating you would be busy and leaving it at that unless something huge came up.

As I stated yesterday I really feel mafia wanted to take advantage of the slight ambiguity of the Jayne role and commander is at the front of the people doing so.

Oh yes, him trying to sell out his crew members and mostly caring about money is just a bunch of BS. He's an

beyond the crew and even some on the crew most of the characters on that show would sell out their grandmothers for extra cash. Yet most of them would be third party in this game at worst. It would not surprise me if part of nark's winning condition was for river and simon to be sold out but while he talks big it is made clear that he never went against anyone else on the ship and he did regret selling out Simon in hind sight and not just because the Blue Hands double crossed him.

What about this: Strike trying to take advantage of ambiguity of Jayne's role and discouraging those who question his opinion. Furthermore, now that we know that he isn't a vig, there's even less possibly pro-town roles out there. Afraid that we are onto to town traitor to mafia (Alliance?).

. First of all, if I was mafia I would not know who the traitor is. And certainly not trust a role that is town in name. He is a high probability of a role that is dangerous to mafia and honestly I would have no problem taking him out. Really even if he was a mafia traitor how would I know ihe doesn't have an alternate win condition like in potc and could sell me out in exchange for getting what he wants?

Jumps on fir wagon...says more than he did on the naxus wagon all together in one post but it is nothing that hasn't already been noted.

I agree that you do have a point, but Fir at that time looked by far the best case and a lot more people jumped this wagon with saying much less than I did. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you on that wagon as well?

you love trying to point to similarities don't you? Even if I wasn't the first to vote him (I was the second) I was the first to question his motives after the odd comment he made regarding the sound wagon. I put a lot of effort into that case and put a lot more reasoning into it than most including you. 2nd vote is not really a bandwagoning vote yours was farther along the developed band wagon.

You are saying you're an easy case but pointing out even easier cases yep...

More on this painting jayne as anti town stuff.

Sorry for ruining your plans and encouraging discussions about Jayne.

I have stated my reason why I believe mafia would want to do this it goes beyond just my opinion that he is town.

For someone so sure he is not town and seem to be wanting to lynch him pretty badly you are pretty hesitant on actually voting for him.

I still don't see why if you are really so convinced about his dangerous statis that you haven't already...what's so important about deadline?

What about letting people discuss, letting Nark make his defence? Hurried lynches are NEVER good... Unless you're not pro-town

your vote wouldn't have lynched him and you were pushing hardest for the nark lynch without throwing your vote on it. It sticks out.

I would disagree about it working. It drew way too much attention to him and a bandwagon. So you saying it is working is out of place in my opinion. Not to mention I did and still believe Jayne to be pro-town. So going back to the mafia taking advantage of an ambiguous role again...there it is.

He didn't get lynched... And it shows it was (and is) working. I've already responded to the 2nd part above.

you can stick to your opinion but you're wrong. There was plenty of people who wanted to lynch him and if activity had been better he would have likely been lynched. There were more people who supported his lynch then there were that defended him.

I really don't get this part. He asserts Jayne as being a possible sk when anyone who has seen the show knows that does not fit Jayne's character at all. I can only see this as an attempt to mislead.

I will agree here - I should have put more thought in it as there are much better choices for SK (we've already identified one). However, I do admit that I screwed up here a bit.

wifom. And you admit there are multiple better examples of sks but you still had it suggested

... Please don't tell me you're comparing Mal's and Jayne's morality? Mal might have done some a bit amoral things (like stealing), but it is clearly shown that he's a caring and good person (even if he has his own deficiencies). Jayne, on the other hand, he has been clearly shown as a thug who wants money and who cares about barely anyone (He cares about Mal, I won't argue that, but his loyalty towards everyone else is questionable at best).

his character is more complex than that I can give you an example of where he turned down money to stay loyal to Mal. Episode 1.

Oh, what about when he sold River and Simon to Alliance? What about when he betrayed his original employers for Mal? Watch any episode and pay attention to his actions. He's an ambiguous character at best.

like I said it was shown clearly in the show he regretted the decision in hindsight and as many bad moments he has had redeeming moments. He was legitimately upset about how the Jaynestown incident went down and episode one did show he was not willing to betray Mal. So I stick to the thought I do not trust jayne on opinions of river and simon but I do not think he is anti-town.

in summary:

Bandwagoned
Mostly stuck to popular opinion
Went after an ambiguous but in my opinion probably town role
Had some comments that appear misleading to me.
Was staying low and off the radar early in the day.

vote commander

In summary:
And you weren't on both of those 2 waggons?

no never actually joined the naxus wagon. I will admit I thoughht about it but I did not know the vote count and streaker jumped on so did not feel the need to jump on. Also I believe I made it clear when I felt the naxus wagon went from weak reasoning (when you jumped on) to when it became a legitimate issue.

Aren't these 2 contradictory? If I had stuck to mostly popular opinion, why did I get out of the way to discuss and accuse Jayne? Also, I'm glad you said that you said "IN YOUR OPINION PROBABLY" - a very good statement to put down when Jayne turns up not to be a town character

but you didn't really make a big case on it. You mentioned it in context and stated it at a time where flavor spec actually fit with discussing the roles that were in the game. And I firmly believe that he is town. So make whatever you want of the comment. You're barking up the wrong tree.

What other comments than SK one did you found misleading? I agree that one of them wasn't perfect, but during my finals I was much more concentrated on them rather than thinking through for 2 hours what I'll post here.
Love the last one - yet again trying to exploit that I was taking my exams. Very nice, Strike, very nice.

This was more you making blanket statements about the naxus then not posting.

[strike wolf]

I would say we could use it to confirm a town role but having mal exposed seems like too big of a risk.

[Commander9]

I would say we could use it to confirm a town role but having mal exposed seems like too big of a risk.

Agreed with this. I'm not sure if I'll have time tonight and I'm pretty sure I won't be online tomorrow until deep night (unless to jump in for a turn, but hopefully my sitters will take care of that), so don't expect an answer before Sunday (Well, maybe tonight, but doubt it). Also, if what, I don't mind Safari targeting me and checking whether I am town - that's another way we can solve it.