Sweeney Todd Mafia ~ Town Wins. Ready to be Archived

[safariguy5]

I can definitely see Mr. S. putting in some more random townspeople. Don't think he'd just go for all the characters like that.
Fogg, Pirelli, even Toby could easily not be in this game.

Also, unvote.

Well where do we go from here then? I've been working on the logic that all the major characters are in here. In that case, should we lynch edocsil anyways since I got the guilty result? Seems logical then, seeing as how vig can easily be used by scum to hide their NK's.

Also, come to think of it edoc, why would you force me to fully claim if you were the Beadle? You should have known who I was if you were the Beadle as Yoshi had figured out that I was hinting at being Judge/Beadle.

unvote vote edocsil

Either way, possibility of framer or busdriver are really small in a VT game of this size, so I'm going to stick with my investigation on you.

[Haggis_McMutton]

I can definitely see Mr. S. putting in some more random townspeople. Don't think he'd just go for all the characters like that.
Fogg, Pirelli, even Toby could easily not be in this game.

Also, unvote.

Well where do we go from here then? I've been working on the logic that all the major characters are in here. In that case, should we lynch edocsil anyways since I got the guilty result? Seems logical then, seeing as how vig can easily be used by scum to hide their NK's.

Also, come to think of it edoc, why would you force me to fully claim if you were the Beadle? You should have known who I was if you were the Beadle as Yoshi had figured out that I was hinting at being Judge/Beadle.

unvote vote edocsil

Either way, possibility of framer or busdriver are really small in a VT game of this size, so I'm going to stick with my investigation on you.

I'm not sure. Like i said in my case yesterday, edoc was my #1 suspect.
However, this beadle thing ...

I mean, assuming you are telling the truth, what are the options here?

1. the real beadle is not counter-claiming for whatever reason - quite unlikely.
2. yoshi was the real beadle and the scum have a janitor - even more unlikely
3. beadle is not actually in this game - again unlikely and quite risky of edoc to assume that(unless beadle is his mod provided fake claim, guess that's possible)
4. turpin and beadle are on opposite sides - well, guess it's possible that Mr. S. would majorly screw us on the flavour like that.

Anyone remember from any of his older games? Did he ever do things like that with the flavour?

On matter of principle, i don't like making decisions like this based on flavour speculation, but on matter of practicality, the logistics fo him being scum and making that claim seem difficult ...

I would like him to answer that question though.

Also, what exactly is the wording of your investigation condition, safari? Ie, does it imply that if the target were framed, or a hated townie, you would lose your power?(since he's not really a bad guy)

[safariguy5]

I can definitely see Mr. S. putting in some more random townspeople. Don't think he'd just go for all the characters like that.
Fogg, Pirelli, even Toby could easily not be in this game.

Also, unvote.

Well where do we go from here then? I've been working on the logic that all the major characters are in here. In that case, should we lynch edocsil anyways since I got the guilty result? Seems logical then, seeing as how vig can easily be used by scum to hide their NK's.

Also, come to think of it edoc, why would you force me to fully claim if you were the Beadle? You should have known who I was if you were the Beadle as Yoshi had figured out that I was hinting at being Judge/Beadle.

unvote vote edocsil

Either way, possibility of framer or busdriver are really small in a VT game of this size, so I'm going to stick with my investigation on you.

I'm not sure. Like i said in my case yesterday, edoc was my #1 suspect.
However, this beadle thing ...

I mean, assuming you are telling the truth, what are the options here?

1. the real beadle is not counter-claiming for whatever reason - quite unlikely.
2. yoshi was the real beadle and the scum have a janitor - even more unlikely
3. beadle is not actually in this game - again unlikely and quite risky of edoc to assume that(unless beadle is his mod provided fake claim, guess that's possible)
4. turpin and beadle are on opposite sides - well, guess it's possible that Mr. S. would majorly screw us on the flavour like that.

Anyone remember from any of his older games? Did he ever do things like that with the flavour?

On matter of principle, i don't like making decisions like this based on flavour speculation, but on matter of practicality, the logistics fo him being scum and making that claim seem difficult ...

I would like him to answer that question though.

Also, what exactly is the wording of your investigation condition, safari? Ie, does it imply that if the target were framed, or a hated townie, you would lose your power?(since he's not really a bad guy)

The wording is that if I investigate someone and they come up innocent, then I lose my powers. So yes, someone could have busdriven or framed edocsil, but I really think that would make mafia OP in this game.

Mr. Squirrel's games tend to be pretty good in terms of town/mafia split. I think Watchmen and X-Men were pretty clear who was on who's side. And I have to say, X-men's mafia had some pretty bad fakeclaims (no offense Mr. Squirrel) I think I ended up leading the lynch on two of them when their fakeclaims were clearly not common characters.

Right now, we have to decide on two issues.

1. Are all the major characters represented?

2. If they are, who would be the VT's?

I've been assuming that 1 is true. If that is the case, then I'm less likely to vote edoc. However, if it's not true, then edoc should be lynched.

Somewhat connected to that, I've speculated that Toby, Pirelli and perhaps someone else could be VT. If we have random townspeople instead, then they'd most likely be VT.

I guess the simplest way to determine this would be to ask if anyone is a random townsperson and would like to step forward? It should clear up whether there are main characters missing as that would make edoc more likely to be scum. Assuming the townspeople are VT, you shouldn't be high on Todd's death list anyways (I'm probably the top target).

But I really can't see how we would have a busdriver or mafia framer, so I'll stick with voting edoc right now. And as an aside, he's definitely good enough to try and fake out a cop if he is mafia.

[ShaggyDan]

There's nobody else in the movie or play. Anyone not claiming something from the list, especially since we outed Victor as the marine, should be lynched automatically as their claim is obviously fake. I see no room for fakeclaiming in this setup unless Mr. Squirrel put in random townspeople roles.

If we limit ourselves to that one list it makes it far too easy just to mass-claim and work out who is scum based off the claim (I'm not suggesting we mass-claim, just that if all were in here it would be an easy win for town). A mass-claim could possibly not hurt town, the lovers are out, the cop is out, the only thing left is doc / other protective roles, and it would be hard to guess who is what simply from the characters, no particular character left fits a certain role (IMO). Maybe on the day of crazy hallucinogenic pies it won't be a good idea though.

I've been thinking the whole game scum would have fakeclaims of at least semi-major characters. From the flavour text for the end of day one I have gotten the impression that Turpin and Todd are both in this game. Since no one CC'd safari I'm willing to bet that he is Turpin, and again from the flavour text I believe that Turpin is town-alligned (read: against Todd). Even if he has his own win-condition he's definitely against Todd; who seems to be the only anti-town killer at the moment.

IMO the mafia would be Todd + Lovett. 2 person mafia in an 11 person game works, especially if one of them is a roleblocker or there's another third party.

Also as far as the hated cop role goes, [/u]I imagine there'd be one or two innocents showing up as guilty[/u], otherwise it really isn't a terribly useful role, though to be honest I really don't think Edoc claiming Beadle would fit that flavour (Turpin knows Beadle quite well). Maybe Pirelli or Fogg?

Odds of mafia hitting their target with a framer are pretty low I imagine. As far as I'm aware Saf never gave much of an indication towards who he was going to investigate. If there was a mafia alligned swapper then I doubt they would have swapped with Edoc, they probably would have swapped with one of the lovers or Yoshi. If there's a town alligned swapper that is responsible for this change they should probably come forward so we then have a better idea of the situation, but again I can't see why they'd switch Yoshi when they could have switched out among the roles they know.

Simply; I can't see the logic behind a frame or a switch on Edoc. So I have to deduce that either Saf is lieing or Edoc is scum. I believe Saf's claim, so logically I think Edoc is scum.

There is an advantage to the lynch on Edoc even if he is Beadle, we would see Beadle's allignment and would get a better idea of who is town / scum. If Beadle comes up town I think it's safe to assume Turpin is town. If he comes up scum then we may be able to follow a lead on the confirmed Turpin being scummy and bussing. Though this would be a situation we'd have to re-evaluate once we were in it.

Based off everything above I'm going to Vote Edoc and hope that we don't have a lieing cop, a switcher or a framer.

[ShaggyDan]

I just had a quick look back and Edoc did not eat a pie (I think, he never posted one way or the other so I assume he didn't). Which in my opinion is a very good thing if we choose to believe his claim and not lynch him. Last thing we need is a crazy-vig random targeting.

Sorry about the wall of text, I was mostly just splashing out random thoughts.

[edocsil]

Of course I didn't eat a pie, the character was insane if we believe the claim.

Oh, and FoS Shaggy for rushing the day here. Even if you do lynch me, you cannot afford to rush things. If you're wrong you end up D3 with no leads and little conversation.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Mr. Squirrel's games tend to be pretty good in terms of town/mafia split. I think Watchmen and X-Men were pretty clear who was on who's side.

My watchmen game was terrible. It was practically impossible for scum to win.

Also, just so you all know, I never said whether or not I gave fakeclaims in this game.

Vote Count
edoc (2) - safariguy, shaggy
C9 (1) - vio

deadline sunday
5 to lynch

[ShaggyDan]

Oh, and FoS Shaggy for rushing the day here. Even if you do lynch me, you cannot afford to rush things. If you're wrong you end up D3 with no leads and little conversation.

I put you on your 2nd vote and L-3... not really rushing. If I wanted to rush I would have put you at L-1 before you claimed and hoped someone quick-hammered before you had a chance. I've been pushing for anyone with information about possible false guilties to come forward, and trying to encourage conversation on a cop that has a guilty. Which, in all common sense, is a very good lead to follow no matter what way you look at it.

Opposed to everyone else who just rolled over and unvoted from a name-claim. The way the conversation is going outside of the case on Edoc it looks like people are just about ready for a mass-claim. Which I wouldn't normally be for, but if people are set on Scum not having fake-claims and those 10 characters being in this game (which I personally don't) it seems like an easy win option for them.

Personally I'd rather chase up the lead of the alleged cop who got a supposed guilty and see what info we can get from both the claimed cop and the outed guilty.

[safariguy5]

Oh, and FoS Shaggy for rushing the day here. Even if you do lynch me, you cannot afford to rush things. If you're wrong you end up D3 with no leads and little conversation.

I put you on your 2nd vote and L-3... not really rushing. If I wanted to rush I would have put you at L-1 before you claimed and hoped someone quick-hammered before you had a chance. I've been pushing for anyone with information about possible false guilties to come forward, and trying to encourage conversation on a cop that has a guilty. Which, in all common sense, is a very good lead to follow no matter what way you look at it.

Opposed to everyone else who just rolled over and unvoted from a name-claim. The way the conversation is going outside of the case on Edoc it looks like people are just about ready for a mass-claim. Which I wouldn't normally be for, but if people are set on Scum not having fake-claims and those 10 characters being in this game (which I personally don't) it seems like an easy win option for them.

Personally I'd rather chase up the lead of the alleged cop who got a supposed guilty and see what info we can get from both the claimed cop and the outed guilty.

Well the best way to see would be to lynch edoc then. At this point, there's enough doubt as to what characters might be there that I'm willing to follow the guilty result and see where that leads us. Although I would hardly call it "rushing a bandwagon" I think edoc is getting a little desperate not to be lynched.

[TheSaxlad]

Reading through this it seems to me, as though we have a couple of options.

1. Edoc is lying and covering safari's back. (Would explain edoc's guilty verdict.)
2. Edoc is lying and safari is pro town (again would explain the guilty verdict)
3. Edoc is telling the truth and Safari is telling the truth. (Busdriven guilty verdict.)
4. (Let me ratify this.) But Safari and Edoc were the only two apart from myself (and I have given my reasons for this) who didnt eat a pie. Perhaps the Vig / judge claim is an elaborate way for the real judge to counterclaim.
5. The Judge is mafia or 3rd party (In which way we should kill him anyway)

My Personal preference is one. I think after some discussion the best way for us to go would be to perhaps lynch edocsil, and then have someone kill safari at night time?

[TheSaxlad]

4 should read.

4. Safari and Edoc were the only two who didnt eat a pie. Surely the pie maker would know what the pie did? They knew it would turn people crazy that night and so didnt eat it?

[TheSaxlad]

Sorry for the triple post but yeah both safari and edoc didnt eat a pie.

[ShaggyDan]

Well the role of Yoshi was never revealed during the day, I don't know if we can assume they even know who Yoshi is, let alone what the pie would do. Though you're right, it is potentially an oddity.

In hind-sight, eating the pie was a mistake, I believed Yoshi was Lucy, and said multiple times the possibility of him being insane. Damn my hunger and love for pie!

[safariguy5]

Well the role of Yoshi was never revealed during the day, I don't know if we can assume they even know who Yoshi is, let alone what the pie would do. Though you're right, it is potentially an oddity.

In hind-sight, eating the pie was a mistake, I believed Yoshi was Lucy, and said multiple times the possibility of him being insane. Damn my hunger and love for pie!

I distinctly gave my reason for fearing the pie would make me voteless and I wanted to make sure that I had a vote to push this lynch through. I'm fine with the support for lynching edoc Sax, but if I'm right, I think I should be afforded the doc protection lest Todd kill the cop.

And I think that anyone who was killed by Todd automatically gets janitored by Lovett.

[TheSaxlad]

If im right and Edoc does come up as mafia, then you are next in line for lovett, which would be a nice way to distance yourself from edoc, so I dont think doc protection will be necessary.

[VioIet]

Well the role of Yoshi was never revealed during the day, I don't know if we can assume they even know who Yoshi is, let alone what the pie would do. Though you're right, it is potentially an oddity.

In hind-sight, eating the pie was a mistake, I believed Yoshi was Lucy, and said multiple times the possibility of him being insane. Damn my hunger and love for pie!

I don't know about this Shaggy. I mean, it makes sense in a way. However- if Yoshi was the person making pies, then once he died- there would be no one to make pies. Since we all got a pie last night- I think Lucy is still out there. Also, if we assume there is a janitor- and the janitor role is usually mafia. I just can't see how a janitor would be pro-town, because we would need to know everyone's role. Only mafia would have something to conceal. And, if Yoshi was mafia, the role would have been revealed to us.

[TheSaxlad]

can someone explain janitor to me plz?

[edocsil]

Saf, here is a thought. If you go and hang me quickly today you will have no one to investigate during the night. I propose we try to find scum through the typical methods today, and you investigate me again in the night. You and I are the only ones who didn't eat pies, that means we are the only ones whose abilities will do what they expect. Scum can't frame/drive me and the investigation should be true.

[ShaggyDan]

Saf, here is a thought. If you go and hang me quickly today you will have no one to investigate during the night. I propose we try to find scum through the typical methods today, and you investigate me again in the night. You and I are the only ones who didn't eat pies, that means we are the only ones whose abilities will do what they expect. Scum can't frame/drive me and the investigation should be true.

I disagree with this for quite a few reasons.

1. If there are only 2 people that didn't eat the pies I would be willing to bet that at least one of them are scum (in case of effects like this they probably co-ordinated for one of them not to eat a pie).

2. If you're lying you could easily off safari while every one else is randomly targetting. Even if you're not lying there's no guarantee he'll live tonight (random-targetting mafia could still hit him, 1/8 chance).

3. This could be a way for you just to get cop to waste another of his investigations when he'll just get a guilty again. I think an investigation on a new person would be a more profitable search.

4. I'm not convinced there is a framer or bus-driver. I can't think of any roles that would fit these powers (though I think there may be roles outside the characters in the film, so I don't know).

5. How do we know if there is a bus-driver that it isn't mafia alligned? For all we know you could be the bus-driver and then swap yourself with an innocent.

6. Aside from yourself, who would you consider a good lead to follow for a case? Ultimately I'd like to see the inactives post more but other than that we don't have a great deal of places to go at the moment. I'm not proposing we quick-lynch you (we don't even have a deadline yet) we have plenty of time for people to bring forward any other cases they want, I'm simply laying a point for people to weigh in on this case one way or another. Despite what other cases come about I still think a cop-guilty is the best target espescially when there's a lot of random night-actions tonight.

Ultimately this plan looks like scum clutching at straws, but I would like to hear everyones thoughts on the current situation before we reach a firm decision so we have something to go off on day 3. If everyone could post out their views on Edoc + Saf (as well as any other players they find note-worthy) I would consider that enough of a foundation to get some leads in day 3.

Also, I've been doing thinking about how many scum we may have, if we have 2 we've got 2 mys-lynches left, if we have 3 we only have the one today. I'm not sure which is more likely, but we could be in possible lylo tomorrow.

[safariguy5]

If im right and Edoc does come up as mafia, then you are next in line for lovett, which would be a nice way to distance yourself from edoc, so I dont think doc protection will be necessary.

I said that Todd and Lovett are the mafia, and I got a guilty investigation on edocsil. Why should I be lynched if edoc comes up mafia? If anything, if he comes up mafia, I should be protected as I would be confirmed as a sane cop.

Well the role of Yoshi was never revealed during the day, I don't know if we can assume they even know who Yoshi is, let alone what the pie would do. Though you're right, it is potentially an oddity.

In hind-sight, eating the pie was a mistake, I believed Yoshi was Lucy, and said multiple times the possibility of him being insane. Damn my hunger and love for pie!

I don't know about this Shaggy. I mean, it makes sense in a way. However- if Yoshi was the person making pies, then once he died- there would be no one to make pies. Since we all got a pie last night- I think Lucy is still out there. Also, if we assume there is a janitor- and the janitor role is usually mafia. I just can't see how a janitor would be pro-town, because we would need to know everyone's role. Only mafia would have something to conceal. And, if Yoshi was mafia, the role would have been revealed to us.

Mrs. Lovett is the one who makes pies Vio, not Lucy. She's probably still out there.

can someone explain janitor to me plz?

Janitors target a player and that player's role or name or both are concealed from the town until the end of the game. With Lovett alive, I think that is probably what is happening.

[jonty125]

but I would like to hear everyones thoughts on the current situation before we reach a firm decision so we have something to go off on day 3. If everyone could post out their views on Edoc + Saf (as well as any other players they find note-worthy) I would consider that enough of a foundation to get some leads in day 3.

I think that a lynch on edoc is required if he flips scum then we know saf is our cop. If he flips town we lynch saf on Day 3.

vote edoc

[edocsil]

but I would like to hear everyones thoughts on the current situation before we reach a firm decision so we have something to go off on day 3. If everyone could post out their views on Edoc + Saf (as well as any other players they find note-worthy) I would consider that enough of a foundation to get some leads in day 3.

I think that a lynch on edoc is required if he flips scum then we know saf is our cop. If he flips town we lynch saf on Day 3.

vote edoc

Shaggy you want to know who I would lynch? It would be right here. If I flipped town (as in I told the truth about the business during the night) he would hang the cop. Hurah, if there is 3 scum town would lose. If there is only 2 they are at lylo and all investigative roles have been killed. I can't recall if he has claimed, I have a file that helps me remember back at home, but if he doesn't have a good claim already I would force him to claim.

Vote Jonty

Yes, yes, before someone points out that it is OMGUS, it is for threatening to kill the claimed cop, not his vote. I don't really expect to live the day, though I do have hopes.

[jonty125]

No-one has claimed busdriver so this would have cleared this up a while ago, so I'll assume we don't have one.

This game will be fairly straightforward with pretty simple roles

I don't think a mafia framer would qualify under that (personal preference may be wrong)

I already claimed Turpin. And I said I was town. Who would be mafia in this game anyways?

Yes, I know - that's why I said you might be mafia. Turpin and his lackies seem like by far best candidates for mafia to me.

Besides the fact that mafia seemed to have forgone their NK, I'm willing to bet my life against edoc's. If he flips town, you can lynch me for lying.

Saf seems 100% certain you're scum so if you flip town he's got a lot of explaining to do

[quote='edoc']I can't recall if he has claimed[/quote]

I haven't claimed and one vote won't shift my position (personally I don't want mafia having me on a target list)

[safariguy5]

No-one has claimed busdriver so this would have cleared this up a while ago, so I'll assume we don't have one.

This game will be fairly straightforward with pretty simple roles

I don't think a mafia framer would qualify under that (personal preference may be wrong)

I already claimed Turpin. And I said I was town. Who would be mafia in this game anyways?

Yes, I know - that's why I said you might be mafia. Turpin and his lackies seem like by far best candidates for mafia to me.

Besides the fact that mafia seemed to have forgone their NK, I'm willing to bet my life against edoc's. If he flips town, you can lynch me for lying.

Saf seems 100% certain you're scum so if you flip town he's got a lot of explaining to do

[quote='edoc']I can't recall if he has claimed

I haven't claimed and one vote won't shift my position (personally I don't want mafia having me on a target list)[/quote]
I'm not 100% certain. I got a guilty verdict, and that was my rationale for voting him at the beginning of the day. Then he claimed beadle and there was enough doubt and no counterclaiming that I unvoted. However, Haggis pointed out that there might have been VT roles that aren't characters in the play or movie, so I followed the investigation and revoted edoc.

Don't talk in absolutes when it's quite simply not true. I'm not sure, but without a lynch, we can't be sure if mafia have fakeclaims or not and this investigation isn't going to be explained one way or another.

[edocsil]

No-one has claimed busdriver so this would have cleared this up a while ago, so I'll assume we don't have one.

This game will be fairly straightforward with pretty simple roles

I don't think a mafia framer would qualify under that (personal preference may be wrong)

I already claimed Turpin. And I said I was town. Who would be mafia in this game anyways?

Yes, I know - that's why I said you might be mafia. Turpin and his lackies seem like by far best candidates for mafia to me.

Besides the fact that mafia seemed to have forgone their NK, I'm willing to bet my life against edoc's. If he flips town, you can lynch me for lying.

Saf seems 100% certain you're scum so if you flip town he's got a lot of explaining to do

[quote='edoc']I can't recall if he has claimed

I haven't claimed and one vote won't shift my position (personally I don't want mafia having me on a target list)[/quote]

Framers are poth common and simple, and I already implied that the person who would have bussed me was scum. I shouldn't have to explain why that is jonty.