[Endgame] Firefly Mafia

[Anarkistsdream]

How about you kiss my ass? I don't owe anyone an apology. There have been plenty of cases and outings as it has been. I think that people know what their mind is for the night and will see what happens in "the morning."

[Talapus]

I think it was Doom's way of saying he's too lazy to look elsewhere and if you did it for him then he could keep sitting on his ass.....lol

[DoomYoshi]

Honestly I suspect that some of the people pushing for Nark's lynch right now are mafia taking advantage of the fact he has claimed a character who has questionable allegiance.

While I didn't agree fully agree with Nark analysis (if you'd like to, I can easily compile his actions from the series where he acts very amorally), but I agree that he's most likely not Mafia (my bet would be a 3rd party or SK) and mafia most likely would try to get him out.

And yet your vote is still on him...

I realize you won't be back in time to reply, but expect the day 2 investigation to start with you.

[VioIet]

Well, I think we have just found Illiad's scummate here. I see your attacking me out of nowhere, as an overwhelming defense for him. I know- because i do the same thing when I'm on someone's team (ex. potc, matxrix)

First off, I said "much thought" not "any". Big difference especially considering that several people find it hard to ignore the "discussion" you have been having with iliad. So to go and then prove something by finding all the times others have talked about it is rather a waste as we are all very aware the "discussion" is still on going between you two. This matters mainly because in a few things you've posted throughout the game you seem to take things out of context or look harder for things that may or may not be there. When there are other times where you "know" something yet don't persue it.

I think it was given about as much thought as it could be in the midst of the naxus and fircoal wagon's. Had those two wagon's not gone on- it would have generated more discussion. And as heated as things were on Fir, it is actually quite good that me and Illiad's banter got as much commentary as it did. And even as you say- it will prove very useful for Day 2.

And I get this I really do. However much of your case is based on the fact of the joke voting stage comment iliad made here:

Unless you have psychic abilities the rest of us don't posess I find it difficult to to buy this as completely truthful or a groundbreaking argument. So yes when I later call your continual "discussion" with him a distraction I really mean it. Because honestly basing it entirely off mispercieved quotes is not the way to go.

You conveniently seem to forget the post, or rather the two post, where I admitted that I had some things confused in my argument on Illiad. I admitted to the misperceivings, so i don't see what you are looking for- by continually hounding me about that fact.

No, I am not psychic, but I can sense things. I know he is scum, but unfortunately I can't prove it. Actually, we can all argue back and forth as much as we want- but nothing will prove anything 100% except for an investigation. Until he is investigated, i can only try to look for things and find things as evidence, and hope that others will join on.

I think your "pursuing" comment is a bit misguided, as i am pursuing the heck out of this case right now. Really, I can only pursue one case at a time. If i had three/four cases going on at once, and was vote hopping and bandwagoning all over the place- i would look incredibly scummy. I've already stuck my neck out far enough in this game already- and its only Day 1- against Illy- who obviously has a ton of supporters out there.

What you are suggesting may sound good in theory and on paper- but i don't see that working out too well on my behalf. I'll explain why. To my recollection, the only things i claimed to "know" was that illy was scum, streaker was full of holes, and sheep wanted to hammer. And i actually wasn't even that confident on streaker; it was merely an observation and i was enquiring about his actions. So i don't at all see many, if any, other than the two i just pointed out, instances where I just claimed to "know" something. And ack- i know that previous sentence was horrid- but hopefully you understand what i was trying to say.

But let's say those are the two instances you had in mind.
I have my case on Illy. Then suddenly, I unvote him and throw a vote on streaker and present a case on him for defending and voting naxus all at the same time. And then i turn around and unvote him, and then Vote Sheep for hammering and being absent. If i had done all that, I would have already been under the noose, and we'd have been at Day 2.

So yes, there may be a lot of scum tells out there, and suspicious or questionable things that I may notice. But in reality, I have to pursue the one that seems like the best lead. I can't just pursue all of them at once. At least just not in the time frame of Day 1. So I noted my observations for others to read, but spent the majority of my time going after Illy.

In my experience, you started off on the right foot and played the part of a concerned town member which is always a great way to get conversations rolling. Though I fail to see the importance with continuing this bickering with iliad when it's not solving anything. The points iliad brought forward against you were valid observations or at least enough to merit notice. However for all the discussing you are doing with him back and forth I fail to see you bring much else to the table for the rest of us to discuss. You only really made one more point about another player while once again letting us know your discussion with iliad is "on hold" because hes away and busy with finals. You think you've cleared yourself and explained your actions satisfactorily enough, so why keep responding to him when no one else gives the argument between you two much merit. In my experience, players with a role to hide are the only ones truly concerned about the half cocked notions of another player. So tell me this, why aren't you scum?

Thank you, and I did try. You do bring up a good point, and it is fairly possible that I pursued Illiad too hard and fast. And yes in his rebuttals, Illy did manage to bring up some points to make my actions look bad- and i never properly defended them. I just posted about two or three more times about his joke vote, and the points i did manage to bring up where from a different game. I think I am actually usually pretty good about not mixing my games up- especially since I'm always in at least four at a time, but i did mess up in this instance.

You say that no one gave Illy's argument much merit- but I disagree. They were just simply divided with three on going topics at the same time, and they thought of the Naxus/Fir topic as the most pertinent at the time. However, safari and a few others have commented that they will revisit the Illiad argument later. So if someone raises a negative point on me, its in my best interest to respond to it and try to defend myself. In fact, you were quite eager for me to respond to your argument, and questioned why i didn't do so in a timely manner. At the same time, i was eager to hear Illy's response to mine, and the constant discussion did indeed make the game fun. Last thing I want is on Day 2 or 3, for someone to ask me why i never responded to these points that were brought up on a previous day. If i had explained my actions to him satisfactorily, then he nor you would continue to bring up these issues against me. The fact remains, that my answers have been less then satisfactory for you two, which is why some arguments are still focused on me. Had all the questions/issues been resolved- i don't think i would really be needing to type this post/response right now.

In my experience, those with something to hide, are the ones who do not like discussing about certain issues, and responding to things. It may seem to you, like I'm beating a dead horse- or however the saying goes. I'm just responding and discussing. I'd say as a pro-town character, I'd better be concerned with the "half-cooked notions of another player," especially if it is something about me. So it seems that we see things opposite on this matter.

You also comment that you don't see me bringing much else to the table- but i think that i have done about as much as I can on Day 1. All of the leads are dwindling down, and I helped to at least bring about one lead- even if it is partly/mostly about myself.

So tell me this, why aren't you scum?

I am not scum, because the mod gave me a town role.

REALLY, I mean REALLY?!?!?! Ummm, would the scum in this game please raise their hands? What, no takers......shocker . I'm sorry Vioiet but for someone who likes to discuss things that is one lame reason to fall back on. If you can make several page discussion out of something you get a "gut feeling" about and then make one quick blanket statment such as the one above and expect me to buy it, then you will be disappointed. Sorry, nice try though.

Well, let me ask, what the hell did you expect by even asking this question?! You say yourself that no one in there right mind, is going to claim scum. Unless you are Victor Sullivan, nobody is going to do that. We both agree with this. So if you know this, then what did you even think that you had to gain by asking me if i was scum? Obviously, regardless of my role, I'm not going to say I'm Scum. Really, this is laughable

I'm not going to claim unless forced too, but all i can say is that you are treading down the wrong road on this one. I've given out enough clues today about my role.

I brought up comments about naxus, sheep, fir, streaker, commander, and strike. Maybe more. It is possible that they easily got overlooked due to me mostly talking about Illiad. But my point is that I did talk about the current happenings in the thread, while making my case.
If i have a feeling that someone is scummy, why should I not pursue the case?

I COMPLETELY agree with this, and this is one of the reasons I have a problem with you at the moment. You are basing your vote on iliad and discussing it at length(And apparently will continue to do so when he returns). Mainly because you saw things in his post that quite honestly are'nt entirely there and a "gut feeling". Yet you have a strong "gut feeling" on sheep and then later say:

"I will keep my vote on Illiad until I have a reason to take it off.

And Sheep, you totally wanted to HAMMER!! I just know it!!!"

So please explain to me how you are more convinced that iliad is scum and you want your vote staying on him yet you claim to know sheep wanted to hammer during a time when it could have made a difference in a townie dying. You claim you know he was "eager" to do it. So please explain why a player making a scummy move like possibly hammering a possible townie, and you being so sure thats exactly what he did, is less scummy then iliad's two sentence post. Because honestly, I'm at a loss. You like to discuss things, well then come on and discuss. Because from your play style that I've seen so far, and the facts or conceptions that you have thus far in the game, they all point to sheep being more scummy then iliad yet you refuse to drop your vote for him and go for sheep.

I admitted that i saw things that aren't there, and am only going off my "inner feelings" at this point.

You say it was a distraction, and it wasn't helping promote town discussion. But after all the discussion about naxus, fir, shaggy, saf/anark- where are we now?
As saf said himself, it will be an interesting case to look at more on Day 2. I think I am promoting a lot of discussion. I think reactions are important. That is another reason why I pursued Illiad. Something about his immediate responses seemed out of character.

I actually backed up a bit- as he defended himself well, raised some points to make me look bad, and i started to run out of things to say about him. I also realized that I was confusing threads- so a lot of the things I was saying, didn't always apply to this game. So I was silent for awhile, and I haven't really been able to come up with many new things since.

I also made a small case against sheep, but it wasn't popular, and many people disagreed. So I didn't pursue anymore, after some time.

Ummm, hate to say it but your's and iliad's "discussion" isn't hugely popular either. And from your own posts throughout the game you have the same "gut feeling" on sheep as iliad. Only difference is that you"know" he wanted to hammer. In any game that move is scummy and as a mafia player you know it. Just because this discussion isn't popular doesn;t mean it shouldn't be persued. Besides, in the course of three posts you get more and more convinced of sheep's scummy actions, yet don't discuss any of it at length. Instead you focus on a reaction from iliad and improvise your own thoughts and interpretations on something that may or may not be there. Yet when a player makes an out right scum move you ignore it even though you "know" it and keep going after iliad.

So, whats your angle? Something here is wrong and the fervent pursuit of iliad is starting to reek of desperation, half truths, and phishing for info that I don't see. So yes, lets discuss this. Why in the world are you so bent on him when sheep is obviously the scummier according to your posts? And don't give me the "it's wasn't popular argument" because thats BS unless a game is at a stalemate. Hell, I'd make a case everyday arguing about mandy's or fircoal's scum ties if I believed it popluar or not.

Hmm, i guess we won't see eye to eye on this one. From what I've noticed, if your case is not popular, you will have a bandwagon.
If the argument, and/or case you are presenting is not popular- then you will get a lot of pressure/heat for it, if you don't back down immediately.
And by popular- i don't necessarily mean that many people are catching on to it, and voting for it to. That is one definition of it. But what I mean by unpopular- is when they pretty much think you are dead wrong, or either overreacting, being over defensive, being a nitpicky scum, etc. For example, most of Herk's wagons.
Pursuing an unpopular case, with do just the opposite- and get people
If i really pursued a case on Sheep for Hammering and being absent, I'd likely get the following responses along with a bandwagon on me:
WTH Vio (i'm used to that one)
Vi, wtf
Are you serious???
tunnel vision
hypocrite

I'm speaking from experience here. I think it is just a wise thing not to pursue. Maybe as an old-timer and highly respected player, you might be able to get away with it once in awhile. But usually it is common thought not to pursue an unpopular case. And i didn't say that sheep was the scummiest person in the game- you are putting words in my mouth here. Yes, I thought some of his actions were suspicious, but i went with the case that I had more to go on. To be honest, i really didn't have much to go on for anyone. Out of all the things I mentioned, and with the little I had, I got the most positive feedback on my comments against Illy. It made me feel good, and like i was getting better, so that was the case I pursued.

In general it sucks coming into the game when I did as most of the strong arguments have been currently resolved. I would really like a hear from a few more players a bit more as it will hellp keep the discussions going. But for now I'm going to Vote: Violet as her play style in general is very suspicious. I see no need to continue bickering with iliad(Who can be extremely argumentative anyway) when no one else seems to care. That and the fact that you have to remind us your "discussion" with him isn't over yet seems a very deliberate distraction.

Not a distraction- but just trying to draw attention to the fact.

So yes, a distraction.

[/quote]

Well the biggest three bandwagons of the day were : Nax, Fir, Anark. It is only a distraction, if I am trying to get people to not vote for Naxus, Fir or Anark. I have in fact posted that I felt Fir was the SK, but i withheld voting him until hearing his claim. After he claimed, i choose not to vote him at all. I was also waiting for Nax to claim before placing a vote- and i never in fact gave Anark much thought at all. I actually rather liked Anark this game, because he told me that my case against Illiad was good. Nark and I tend to bump heads in almost every game, but in this one we did not. So i was surprised when i saw his claim out of nowhere. But through all of that- i have still chosen to keep my vote on Illy, just as you have chosen to keep yours on me.
It was not a distraction, but a matter of preference. If i was trying to distract, i think i could have done a much better job (ex. Briars).
I think my case on Illy, despite all the other things going on, is no different from you case on me, despite all the other things going on. However, I do not think you are being a distraction, just as I don't think that I am. I think you are also trying to promote discussion, notice scumtells, and pursue the person you think is scum. Same as me.


And don't call me WOMAN

[Talapus]

ARRRGHHHHH, Damn you Vio....now I have to respond to your post. We must set some ground rules on the differences between a discussion, and a novel....lol. Give me some time, you make some valid points and I agree with the not seeing eye to eye on things. But there are a few things you point out I still disagree with.

[DoomYoshi]

All included, I think Fir could actually be a lyncher and Jayne could fit that role perfectly (He absolutely hates Simon).

This is the first mention of the role of Jayne. I thought I had a case here, but I don't. I originally figured that a lyncher is a town role. This is not technically always correct. Then I figured that there might be some sort of recruitment thing; but the mod wouldn't support the kill if that was the case. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Any ideas from others.

I am going to go out on a limb here. I think Comm9 and strike make a convincing mafia now. They both have been pushing the town claims along. They have both been too careful avoiding crossing each others paths. At the moment, I am really starting to believe Vio also. That doesn't make Iliad scum in my mind, but it does clear her.

[Iliad]

Vi, if someone who posts that your case on me is very weak means that he's my scummate that means that basically everyone in the game is my scummate.

You have tried very hard to pin something on me, almost as if you have some kind of unknown purpose to do so. Your case against me hasn't brought any real scumtells though.

Also yes you should focus on more than one case. You don't have to hop and vote, but if you see a scumtell but you think someone else deserves your vote more, you should still point it out. This way ou've just focused on me stooping to more and more desperate antics. And you started off lying, so this case has only driven away some of my time and made you look fairly bad.

On the nark issue, I still propose lynching. I'm not sure why people are so ready to trust his claim, considering the circumstances around it. If a good name claim is all it takes to erase all suspicion, mafia will play cirles around us.
Nark has acted very scummy, and I find it quite likely that he's not town-aligned, and maybe not Jayne.

[safariguy5]

I sort of think that if you really feel that strongly that someone is mafia, the strongest indictment of that is to say "lynch him today and if he's not scum, lynch me tomorrow". I've done this a few times (whether explicitly or implicitly) and it's the ultimate way of accountability. Well Vio, are you willing to be lynched if Iliad is killed and doesn't turn up scum?

[VioIet]

I sort of think that if you really feel that strongly that someone is mafia, the strongest indictment of that is to say "lynch him today and if he's not scum, lynch me tomorrow". I've done this a few times (whether explicitly or implicitly) and it's the ultimate way of accountability. Well Vio, are you willing to be lynched if Iliad is killed and doesn't turn up scum?

Wow Saf! That post was a dagger.

Well my answer in short... Yes


But do I also have to show accountability for sheep and Fir, and streaker, or anyone else I've had suspicions on?

And will you apply this accountability principle to other people in this game who have started bandwagons on others. Or is it just because I've single handedly pursued Illy so heavily?

Is that why you unvoted anark?

[Talapus]

Ok, to start off with I'll make the response short as I know Fircoal will zone out 4 sentences into this anyway. Plus, I agree with some things you say and now understand why you said them so your actions are less scummy now for those reasons. Albeit a bit misguided, but again, apples to oranges and I can accept we won't see eye to eye on things.

Well, I think we have just found Illiad's scummate here. I see your attacking me out of nowhere, as an overwhelming defense for him. I know- because i do the same thing when I'm on someone's team (ex. potc, matxrix)

Scumbuddy hardly. And the fact that you didn't vote me after your response(Yes, I read it all) makes me think you don't believe that either. I certainly wouldn't say it was "out of nowhere" though. I have played in several games on this site as have quite a few players in this game as well where people who take quotes out of context or read too deeply into posts end up seriously hurting town. It's just a bad move all around, and yes you admitted it, but that on top on your Iliad is scum discussion made me pick you out as a very real threat. FYI - In the future you will not want to argue for your scumbuddy so hard as you claim I did for illy. Smart scum try a few casual discussions to point players elsewhere and if and when that won't work they throw their buddy under the lynch wagon, grab their pitchfork, and light their torches. So in the future, be really careful with that play style.

You conveniently seem to forget the post, or rather the two post, where I admitted that I had some things confused in my argument on Illiad. I admitted to the misperceivings, so i don't see what you are looking for- by continually hounding me about that fact.

Hmmm, really didn't see "continually hounding" you at all. Mentioned it and put it out there but certainly not perpetuating it over and over again.

No, I am not psychic, but I can sense things. I know he is scum, but unfortunately I can't prove it. Actually, we can all argue back and forth as much as we want- but nothing will prove anything 100% except for an investigation. Until he is investigated, i can only try to look for things and find things as evidence, and hope that others will join on.

I think your "pursuing" comment is a bit misguided, as i am pursuing the heck out of this case right now. Really, I can only pursue one case at a time. If i had three/four cases going on at once, and was vote hopping and bandwagoning all over the place- i would look incredibly scummy. I've already stuck my neck out far enough in this game already- and its only Day 1- against Illy- who obviously has a ton of supporters out there.

What you are suggesting may sound good in theory and on paper- but i don't see that working out too well on my behalf. I'll explain why. To my recollection, the only things i claimed to "know" was that illy was scum, streaker was full of holes, and sheep wanted to hammer. And i actually wasn't even that confident on streaker; it was merely an observation and i was enquiring about his actions. So i don't at all see many, if any, other than the two i just pointed out, instances where I just claimed to "know" something. And ack- i know that previous sentence was horrid- but hopefully you understand what i was trying to say.

But let's say those are the two instances you had in mind.
I have my case on Illy. Then suddenly, I unvote him and throw a vote on streaker and present a case on him for defending and voting naxus all at the same time. And then i turn around and unvote him, and then Vote Sheep for hammering and being absent. If i had done all that, I would have already been under the noose, and we'd have been at Day 2.

So yes, there may be a lot of scum tells out there, and suspicious or questionable things that I may notice. But in reality, I have to pursue the one that seems like the best lead. I can't just pursue all of them at once. At least just not in the time frame of Day 1. So I noted my observations for others to read, but spent the majority of my time going after Illy.

Ok, I get the vote hoping fear. But I don't understand why you think Iliad's comment deserves more attention then Sheep's bandwagon vote. Especially when you say you "know" he wanted to hammer. If you "know" it, that is definitely a better reason to vote someone then illy's comment. I think most players here would agree with me on this too. A guy jumping on a bandwagon in its final race to the gallows with possible claimed townie compared to a joke vote misconception? Ya, still really don't see the logic behind this reasoning yet Vio, sorry.

In my experience, you started off on the right foot and played the part of a concerned town member which is always a great way to get conversations rolling. Though I fail to see the importance with continuing this bickering with iliad when it's not solving anything. The points iliad brought forward against you were valid observations or at least enough to merit notice. However for all the discussing you are doing with him back and forth I fail to see you bring much else to the table for the rest of us to discuss. You only really made one more point about another player while once again letting us know your discussion with iliad is "on hold" because hes away and busy with finals. You think you've cleared yourself and explained your actions satisfactorily enough, so why keep responding to him when no one else gives the argument between you two much merit. In my experience, players with a role to hide are the only ones truly concerned about the half cocked notions of another player. So tell me this, why aren't you scum?

Thank you, and I did try. You do bring up a good point, and it is fairly possible that I pursued Illiad too hard and fast. And yes in his rebuttals, Illy did manage to bring up some points to make my actions look bad- and i never properly defended them. I just posted about two or three more times about his joke vote, and the points i did manage to bring up where from a different game. I think I am actually usually pretty good about not mixing my games up- especially since I'm always in at least four at a time, but i did mess up in this instance.

You say that no one gave Illy's argument much merit- but I disagree. They were just simply divided with three on going topics at the same time, and they thought of the Naxus/Fir topic as the most pertinent at the time. However, safari and a few others have commented that they will revisit the Illiad argument later. So if someone raises a negative point on me, its in my best interest to respond to it and try to defend myself. In fact, you were quite eager for me to respond to your argument, and questioned why i didn't do so in a timely manner. At the same time, i was eager to hear Illy's response to mine, and the constant discussion did indeed make the game fun. Last thing I want is on Day 2 or 3, for someone to ask me why i never responded to these points that were brought up on a previous day. If i had explained my actions to him satisfactorily, then he nor you would continue to bring up these issues against me. The fact remains, that my answers have been less then satisfactory for you two, which is why some arguments are still focused on me. Had all the questions/issues been resolved- i don't think i would really be needing to type this post/response right now.

Thats right, thats why we are clearing the air right now and getting on the same page.

In my experience, those with something to hide, are the ones who do not like discussing about certain issues, and responding to things.

Ummm, have you played with mandy? LMAO

So tell me this, why aren't you scum?

I am not scum, because the mod gave me a town role.

REALLY, I mean REALLY?!?!?! Ummm, would the scum in this game please raise their hands? What, no takers......shocker . I'm sorry Vioiet but for someone who likes to discuss things that is one lame reason to fall back on. If you can make several page discussion out of something you get a "gut feeling" about and then make one quick blanket statment such as the one above and expect me to buy it, then you will be disappointed. Sorry, nice try though.

Well, let me ask, what the hell did you expect by even asking this question?! You say yourself that no one in there right mind, is going to claim scum. Unless you are Victor Sullivan, nobody is going to do that. We both agree with this. So if you know this, then what did you even think that you had to gain by asking me if i was scum? Obviously, regardless of my role, I'm not going to say I'm Scum. Really, this is laughable

I'm not going to claim unless forced too, but all i can say is that you are treading down the wrong road on this one. I've given out enough clues today about my role.

Just making a point I find it humorous that you made pages of discussions with illy and try to convince us of his scummness yet then have the audacity to make a one sentence blanket statment that you are town and expect us to buy it. Poetically ironic actually.

I brought up comments about naxus, sheep, fir, streaker, commander, and strike. Maybe more. It is possible that they easily got overlooked due to me mostly talking about Illiad. But my point is that I did talk about the current happenings in the thread, while making my case.
If i have a feeling that someone is scummy, why should I not pursue the case?

I COMPLETELY agree with this, and this is one of the reasons I have a problem with you at the moment. You are basing your vote on iliad and discussing it at length(And apparently will continue to do so when he returns). Mainly because you saw things in his post that quite honestly are'nt entirely there and a "gut feeling". Yet you have a strong "gut feeling" on sheep and then later say:

"I will keep my vote on Illiad until I have a reason to take it off.

And Sheep, you totally wanted to HAMMER!! I just know it!!!"

So please explain to me how you are more convinced that iliad is scum and you want your vote staying on him yet you claim to know sheep wanted to hammer during a time when it could have made a difference in a townie dying. You claim you know he was "eager" to do it. So please explain why a player making a scummy move like possibly hammering a possible townie, and you being so sure thats exactly what he did, is less scummy then iliad's two sentence post. Because honestly, I'm at a loss. You like to discuss things, well then come on and discuss. Because from your play style that I've seen so far, and the facts or conceptions that you have thus far in the game, they all point to sheep being more scummy then iliad yet you refuse to drop your vote for him and go for sheep.

I admitted that i saw things that aren't there, and am only going off my "inner feelings" at this point.

You say it was a distraction, and it wasn't helping promote town discussion. But after all the discussion about naxus, fir, shaggy, saf/anark- where are we now?

SEE, here you do it again. You completely leave out sheep yet he was in several of your posts and you "know" he hammered which when it comes to claimed townies is very scummy. But it sounds like you did it based on your perceptions of how your mafia games have gone so far so now I am going to sum up so I don't have to requote the rest of this discussion. For the most part though I think I understand.

Hmm, i guess we won't see eye to eye on this one. From what I've noticed, if your case is not popular, you will have a bandwagon.

Doesn't mean it's not a valid argument. Now, If I argued Fircoal should be lynched because he's, yellow, fuzzy, and disgusting, it's a lame argument. Joke vote, sure, after that it sucks. But If I did that throughout the game and filled up pages with rantings of it then yes, players would and should bandwagon my ass as I'm not bringing anything to the table. However if you make some valid points and firmly believe it and think its the best case you have then go for it. Players(Well, players who read what you're saying) shouldn't bandwagon you for it ever. Lots of peeps would love to hop on a Tappy lynch wagon and hang me out to dry in games, but no one hopped on board when I made the points against you. That was because everyone sees that they at least had some merit.

If the argument, and/or case you are presenting is not popular- then you will get a lot of pressure/heat for it, if you don't back down immediately.
And by popular- i don't necessarily mean that many people are catching on to it, and voting for it to. That is one definition of it. But what I mean by unpopular- is when they pretty much think you are dead wrong, or either overreacting, being over defensive, being a nitpicky scum, etc. For example, most of Herk's wagons.
Pursuing an unpopular case, with do just the opposite- and get people
If i really pursued a case on Sheep for Hammering and being absent, I'd likely get the following responses along with a bandwagon on me:
WTH Vio (i'm used to that one)
Vi, wtf
Are you serious???
tunnel vision
hypocrite

I'm speaking from experience here. I think it is just a wise thing not to pursue. Maybe as an old-timer and highly respected player, you might be able to get away with it once in awhile. But usually it is common thought not to pursue an unpopular case. And i didn't say that sheep was the scummiest person in the game- you are putting words in my mouth here. Yes, I thought some of his actions were suspicious, but i went with the case that I had more to go on. To be honest, i really didn't have much to go on for anyone. Out of all the things I mentioned, and with the little I had, I got the most positive feedback on my comments against Illy. It made me feel good, and like i was getting better, so that was the case I pursued.

And again, you can't always do whats popular. When you say you "know" sheep wanted to hammer that is more scummy then illy's post. Because it was a claimed town and the wagon had left the station and was in closing distance of the finish line. In any game thats a very scummy move if you "know" that was their intention. So compared to illy or sheep, I had a big problem with you when you continued to persue illy when sheep made a huge scum move in any book.

Unfortunately it seems you are going to stick with illy because of bad or less positive experiences in your mafia past where people bandwagon for the wrong reasons. I get that now, I don't agree with it, but I understand. Yes we'll have great discussions for day 2 when it rolls around and I hope you start playing a bit more with the right thing to do instead of what you had to do in your last games. If you do, we'll probably see eye to eye a bit more. If not though, thats cool, but I'll call you out on it again next time.....lol

[Talapus]

Well crap, so much for short. Sorry Fircoal.

[safariguy5]

I sort of think that if you really feel that strongly that someone is mafia, the strongest indictment of that is to say "lynch him today and if he's not scum, lynch me tomorrow". I've done this a few times (whether explicitly or implicitly) and it's the ultimate way of accountability. Well Vio, are you willing to be lynched if Iliad is killed and doesn't turn up scum?

Wow Saf! That post was a dagger.

Well my answer in short... Yes


But do I also have to show accountability for sheep and Fir, and streaker, or anyone else I've had suspicions on?

And will you apply this accountability principle to other people in this game who have started bandwagons on others. Or is it just because I've single handedly pursued Illy so heavily?

Is that why you unvoted anark?

No, but you're saying that

I know he is scum, but unfortunately I can't prove it.

Well, if you really feel this strongly that he is scum but you can't bring up solid evidence that he is, then you have to be accountable for it. You're asking us to trust you that he's scum on blind faith. Which means that should he not turn up scum, you have no basis for defending your opinion. Also, since you were the origin on his case and have had trouble finding support, "unpopular case" as you call it, it might be the best way to get the support for an iliad lynch. The wagons that people agree have merit tend to garner support or ridicule based on their evidence presented. You basically have personal sense and "feelings" as your basis for why he's scum, therefore more is required in order to guarantee a lynch.

I was called out for being suspicious of Nark, therefore I presented a case on him to justify my suspicion. Due to his nameclaim and possibility that he is town, I don't feel strongly enough that he was scum to push militantly for his lynch. If I could garner the support for it, then I would definitely pursue it. But there is enough doubt with the extra information that I'm not comfortable pushing aggressively for the lynch. Just look at what happened to fircoal, after a role reveal, it's time to reevaluate the situation and decide if the case should be pursued further. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

[strike wolf]

Vi, if someone who posts that your case on me is very weak means that he's my scummate that means that basically everyone in the game is my scummate.

You have tried very hard to pin something on me, almost as if you have some kind of unknown purpose to do so. Your case against me hasn't brought any real scumtells though.

Also yes you should focus on more than one case. You don't have to hop and vote, but if you see a scumtell but you think someone else deserves your vote more, you should still point it out. This way ou've just focused on me stooping to more and more desperate antics. And you started off lying, so this case has only driven away some of my time and made you look fairly bad.

On the nark issue, I still propose lynching. I'm not sure why people are so ready to trust his claim, considering the circumstances around it. If a good name claim is all it takes to erase all suspicion, mafia will play cirles around us.
Nark has acted very scummy, and I find it quite likely that he's not town-aligned, and maybe not Jayne.

If I agreed with him being the most scummy I would probably agree with you on the nark part. As it is I full-heartedly support what you said about vio. The problem I have with the nark wagon is so many people who seemed to hop on it mostly out of convenience and the fact I don't feel the behavior that most are claiming (he claimed too early) as being condemning. He gave a reason for why he claimed and I tend to buy it. He says he has a crappy role and I can see why he may have felt a bit non-chalant about claiming it(perhaps some clarification as to what your crappy role is may clear the air a bit). Also to date there has not been a counterclaim so as a role I do not believe to be third party or mafia but I do feel should be in the game I will believe him.

Ok I am running out of time so I am going to have to keep this brief. Am I the only one who noticed that at the beginning of the post vio pretty much omgusly accuses tal of being iliad's scum buddy but by the end pretty much switches directions with a "hey we're both just scum hunting" comment? Also vio. Your initial case received moderate approval but was weighed to be less popular than naxus. It was also pretty much non-existant through your latter cases against him and most of the comments made about "revisiting" the case after fircoal was actually about making a case against you.

[Talapus]

Ok I am running out of time so I am going to have to keep this brief. Am I the only one who noticed that at the beginning of the post vio pretty much omgusly accuses tal of being iliad's scum buddy but by the end pretty much switches directions with a "hey we're both just scum hunting" comment?

Nope, saw that and commented on it in my longer post up top. But I attributed it more to a joke then anything else as she never voted me. Again, not the best way to play, but others including me have pointed out some issues with her play style. Unfortuately we are at like 19 hours and counting and some people are totally happy with a nark lynch while several others can't even be bothered to pop in and discuss.. It eems that day 1 will come to an end witout much of a consensus since it's a Sat. And that just all around blows.

[Anarkistsdream]

Seems to me that Saf and Talapus are both riding Violet pretty hard. (Do NOT take that sexually) However, unless you guys think she, herself, is scum, doing this is just confusing things even more and dragging them out into a bad area. This just gives mafia something to link up with on either side depending on what the outcome is. I would really recommend not doing this unless you guys are gonna vote her.

That in connection with Strikes good catch on her

Am I the only one who noticed that at the beginning of the post vio pretty much omgusly accuses tal of being iliad's scum buddy but by the end pretty much switches directions with a "hey we're both just scum hunting" comment?

really does make it look like she is trying to be fairly subversive in her behavior.

I really don't want ANOTHER person outed, but at some point you have to shit or get off the pot.

Unvote if needed
Vote Violet

[Talapus]

Seems to me that Saf and Talapus are both riding Violet pretty hard. (Do NOT take that sexually) However, unless you guys think she, herself, is scum, doing this is just confusing things even more and dragging them out into a bad area. This just gives mafia something to link up with on either side depending on what the outcome is. I would really recommend not doing this unless you guys are gonna vote her.That in connection with Strikes good catch on her

Am I the only one who noticed that at the beginning of the post vio pretty much omgusly accuses tal of being iliad's scum buddy but by the end pretty much switches directions with a "hey we're both just scum hunting" comment?

really does make it look like she is trying to be fairly subversive in her behavior.

I really don't want ANOTHER person outed, but at some point you have to shit or get off the pot.

Unvote if needed
Vote Violet

Ummmm, my vote has been and will remain on her. All the points I made against her are valid I I think even though her playstyle needs work, I don't agree at all with her vote remaining on illy when she "know"s that sheep tried to hammer a claimed townie which is very scummy in any game

[strike wolf]

deadline in about 26 hrs.

Before I log out I would like to point out it has been about 16 hours since this was posted meaning we have 10 hours to deadline.

[Talapus]

deadline in about 26 hrs.

Before I log out I would like to point out it has been about 16 hours since this was posted meaning we have 10 hours to deadline.

Yep, hard to reach a verdict with not everyone here. Weekends are always tough though.

[naxus]

Seems to me that Saf and Talapus are both riding Violet pretty hard. (Do NOT take that sexually) However, unless you guys think she, herself, is scum, doing this is just confusing things even more and dragging them out into a bad area. This just gives mafia something to link up with on either side depending on what the outcome is. I would really recommend not doing this unless you guys are gonna vote her.

That in connection with Strikes good catch on her

Am I the only one who noticed that at the beginning of the post vio pretty much omgusly accuses tal of being iliad's scum buddy but by the end pretty much switches directions with a "hey we're both just scum hunting" comment?

really does make it look like she is trying to be fairly subversive in her behavior.

I really don't want ANOTHER person outed, but at some point you have to shit or get off the pot.

Unvote if needed
Vote Violet

Got sidetracked and fell behind in this. Just read back up and have a few things to say. One is that while anark's claim is believeable it still seems like one ballsy gambit to me. Little to no pressure on him, he claims and most believe it leaving him clear for a day or two. Hell i believe it too it just gives me that vibe.

With violet, I concur with earlier arguments and that this is actually different then her usual playstyle so vote vio

[DoomYoshi]

unvote vote Iliad If he is not scum, we get Vio tomorrow

[nagerous]

unvote vote Iliad If he is not scum, we get Vio tomorrow

There are about 5 hrs before the deadline. Is this a proposal that we should speed lynch Iliad and not even let him claim?

[strike wolf]

Honestly this day is going to end in a no lynch. I don't understand why you are so quick to go against the only wagons that would even have a chance of reaching there conclusion to vote iliad where the only case against him has been shown to be weak. Especially when there really is not enough time to come to a good lynch with a claim.

[nagerous]

Honestly this day is going to end in a no lynch. I don't understand why you are so quick to go against the only wagons that would even have a chance of reaching there conclusion to vote iliad where the only case against him has been shown to be weak. Especially when there really is not enough time to come to a good lynch with a claim.

If this wasn't clear from my post, this was my conclusion too. I was questioning Yoshi's logic.

[strike wolf]

I got what you meant nag but wanted to reiterate.

[Anarkistsdream]

Yeah... Pretty freaking scummy, if you ask me. But too late to do anything else about it.