inter clan tourny debate

[Nikolai]

I will now post a self quote.

Come on, AK, help me out here. You're objecting to allowing tourney privs for clan business like Dragoon Open Games or clan challenges or inter-clan tourneys because ideologically, you don't think that these items meet the qalifications for tourney privs. I'm asking why, ideologically, these items are different from what you have set down as required to qualify for tourny privs.
We've already established that there are no practical problems with allowing tourney privs for this stuff: now I'm trying to figure out if there's an effective difference between what you currently have as required qualifications and the things we're saying should be legitimate qualifications. If there is no effective difference, then there's no reason not to amend the rules for tourney privs. So... help me out?

There's not a lot of point in putting it up as a suggestion if we can't dialogue long enough to establish whether it's a good idea or not.
Joey asked

so if they had a scoring system they would be a tournament?
even if the nature of the scoring system means that it could go on for a very long time rite?

AndrewB didn't ask a question, but he did effectively ask for your help in finding a solution to his problem.

So I need to create a GAME (whether it is a tournament game or anything else), which I won't join automatically. Whether is has any labels or not, it does not matter for me. Whether it goes to the tournament page or any other page, or in fact not displayed at all, again it does not matter to me. As long as people can find it through "Game Finder" it is all I need. I will distribute those games numbers to the required people myself. Currently ONLY tournament game allows you to create this kind of the game.

I hope I have explained my need properly, and looking forward to get an answer to my problem.

So... how about it?

[joeyjordison]

thats exactly how i feel. as you put very well tourny privs are a work around. what i object to is the fact the that while we have no clan system in place for games the work around isn't being used!

so i didn't post a question mark on the end but its pretty obvious that i wanted an explanation...

anyway nik has pointed out a few questions so it would be helpful to hav them answered

[AndrewB]

Was there a question that maybe I could answer?

I thought you guys were suggesting stuff that would be added to the to-do list or rejected by Lack.

Ok, let me sum it up and provide some of the possible solutions/suggestions:

1. For the long term, we need ability to create a game, without joining this game automatically. It can be protected by a special permission. Any clan will have a dedicated TD (one or two), who can create those games. It can go to a new tab in the "Join a Game", called "Clan games". Those games will have a title and will be password protected. Same as currently Tournament Games are. In order for a clan to have that permission, clan should meet minimum size specifications (10+ members or so).

2. Improve a work-around. For the time-being, until the #1 suggestion will be implemented, allow certain CC members, who host "in-clan" games to create the tournaments game without 3 months expiration rule.
Once #1 is implemented, you remove the tournaments permission from those "in-clan" TDs.

I think it is fear to ask to host a public tournament once. Because in that way you sharpen your skills in organizing tournament games, which will be very useful for the "in-clan" games.

[AK_iceman]

1. For the long term, we need ability to create a game, without joining this game automatically. It can be protected by a special permission. Any clan will have a dedicated TD (one or two), who can create those games. It can go to a new tab in the "Join a Game", called "Clan games". Those games will have a title and will be password protected. Same as currently Tournament Games are.

I would suggest you try and get this current suggestion implemented.
Naming Private Games
You have to agree, that if every clan at CC had the option for one or two members to have tourney privs, the naming games abuse would be extremely out of hand. I probably wouldn't mind giving it to more mature clans, such as yourselves, but since I choose not to discriminate it has to be everybody or nobody. And I choose nobody.

2. Improve a work-around. For the time-being, until the #1 suggestion will be implemented, allow certain CC members, who host "in-clan" games to create the tournaments game without 3 months expiration rule.
Once #1 is implemented, you remove the tournaments permission from those "in-clan" TDs.

We have a work-around. It's just that you and your clan members would rather not do any work in order to receive these priveleges. And no, there will be no CC members who will get priveleges without following the rules. I hold everyone to the same standard regardless of what they are using the priveleges for.


Look, I think this system is very functional, and it keeps the balance between the people who want priveleges for their own benefit, and the people who honestly just want to create a better experience for others by hosting a tournament. The only step I would take to change the system, is to eliminate "Elite Games" and clan tourneys being made with tourney privs. Personally, I feel tourney privs should be for public tournaments only, but I have accepted the fact that some people prefer these other games and am allowing it for the moment. So please don't push me to change it.

Anything else?

[AndrewB]

I would suggest you try and get this current suggestion implemented.
Naming Private Games
You have to agree, that if every clan at CC had the option for one or two members to have tourney privs, the naming games abuse would be extremely out of hand. I probably wouldn't mind giving it to more mature clans, such as yourselves, but since I choose not to discriminate it has to be everybody or nobody. And I choose nobody.

I am sorry, you didn't understand what I have asked there. I need a game, which I won't join by default. What is has to do with naming private games? When I create a private game, I'm joining it automatically.

Also I have edited, that we can impose a minimum size requirement for a clan, 10+, 20+, whatever will be decided.

And you cannot choose who to give it to, because it is not implemented.

We have a work-around. It's just that you and your clan members would rather not do any work in order to receive these priveleges. And no, there will be no CC members who will get priveleges without following the rules. I hold everyone to the same standard regardless of what they are using the priveleges for.

Again, as I said, it is fair to ask to do the public tournament once. But there should be no 3 months period. And why would you say "not do any work"? I explained already. I have currently 3 tournaments ongoing, I cannot add another one. I am doing lots of work to organize private tournaments.

I understand that you are following rules. I have posted my suggestion here to change the rules until the new type of game will be added. And I have explained, I think in very deep detail, the problem, which I am facing, and why do I need it.

Look, I think this system is very functional, and it keeps the balance between the people who want priveleges for their own benefit, and the people who honestly just want to create a better experience for others by hosting a tournament. The only step I would take to change the system, is to eliminate "Elite Games" and clan tourneys being made with tourney privs. Personally, I feel tourney privs should be for public tournaments only, but I have accepted the fact that some people prefer these other games and am allowing it for the moment. So please don't push me to change it.

Anything else?

As I was saying in some of my previous posts, I am yet to see the possible abuse of the system. What possible "own benefit" can one have with creating of the tournament game? But yet again, I don't ask you to open the tournament games to everybody, only to the certain clan games organizers. I believe currently we have only "Elite", "Super Elite" and "Dragoons" clan games (Correct me if I am wrong). I think you can use your own discretion to give those privileges for this work-around.

And I agree with you, it should not be a tournament game, but a special, new type of the game, which I have described in #1 suggestion.

[AK_iceman]

I am sorry, you didn't understand what I have asked there. I need a game, which I won't join by default. What is has to do with naming private games? When I create a private game, I'm joining it automatically.

I'm assuming the majority of your clan is premium, so this idea would work since they can create private games?

Also I have edited, that we can impose a minimum size requirement for a clan, 10+, 20+, whatever will be decided.

The current requirement is 6, and why does that matter?

Again, as I said, it is fair to ask to do the tournament once. But there should be no 3 months period. And why would you say "not do any work"? I explained already. I have currently 3 tournaments ongoing, I cannot add another one. I am doing lots of work to organize private tournaments.

It's not for people like you, since you are hosting public tournaments all the time it shouldn't be a problem for you to maintain your priveleges. It's for people such as joeyjordison, who think they deserve priveleges without doing any work, and when they don't get their way they set up a bogus tournament just for the priveleges. Maybe after the first or second bogus tournaments they will get tired and stop, or wisen up and actually try and help the community.

And I agree with you, it should not be a tournament game, but a special, new type of the game, which I have described in #1 suggestion.

That should be in a seperate suggestion thread. This thread is trying to change the current system, whereas you would like to implement a new idea.

[AndrewB]

I am sorry, I understood all, but this:

I am sorry, you didn't understand what I have asked there. I need a game, which I won't join by default. What is has to do with naming private games? When I create a private game, I'm joining it automatically.

I'm assuming the majority of your clan is premium, so this idea would work since they can create private games?

Do you mean that you are asking the players in the private tournament to create the games themselves? If so, it would never work, it is extremely inefficient, and prone to lots of errors, and will be extremely slow...

Had any finished or ongoing open tournament ever asked players to create games themselves?

But it could work for the "in-clan" open games, not tournament games. What I find recently that usual clan members are very reluctant in creating new open games, I have to feed them with the new open games constantly.

And ok, I can setup another thread about those "in-clan" games. Just there were too many of those...

I'll do it some time Monday.

And we can keep discussing changing existing rules in this thread.

[AK_iceman]

Well... I was talking about the "Dragoon Games" when I said the "Private games with names" would work. Since there is no organizer, everyone could just create the games they wanted and people could join them.

And I think Pedronicus's tournament, The CC World Cup was organized by people making their own games for about half of the tourney.

[Nikolai]

Thanks for responding. Sorry I haven't for a bit... I've been occupied. Let's see...

Not quite that simple, since the Dragoon Open Games are for the general consumption not only of ourselves, but of a large group of other players. We want to provide a variety games on a regular basis, and the best way to do it is to have a few people with tourney privs in charge of setting up various types of games for whoever likes those game types. Named private games might help, since they'd let any Dragoon set up whatever they wanted, but that doesn't help with allowing us to keep a variety of games up, including some types that most Dragoons aren't interested in playing.

AndrewB's point earlier about clan size, to clear up a misconception, was not size to allow a clan, it was size to allow one person in the clan tourney privs.

And all of this still fails to deal with the fact that clan challenges and tourneys become much, much more difficult to run without tourney privs. I'm in the process of gathering teams for a challenge against another clan, and I know I'd find my life much simpler if I had tourney privs. I'm not asking for them, since I haven't met the criteria stated in the current rules. But I am suggesting that it would be fairly straightforward to change the current rules. We've already established that there are no practical objections to the proposed changes, and I'm not seeing any particular other reason why not. Am I missing anything?

[spinwizard]

I love the open games, they r games with high quality oponents that are lots of fun.

[Nikolai]

Oh, and I thought I'd put this up just in case you didn't catch the relevance...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16578