Limit New Recruits for 16 games, unlock settings and maps

[Woodruff]

This recommendation offers a reasonably achievable goal: participate in X games, unlock this cool thing; participate in X more games, unlock these other cool things; etc. A goal of this suggestion is to allow new Recruits to experience this great game with basic, beginner, understandable, game options that don’t give an unfair advantage to seasoned players.

This is where our long-standing disagreement begins. The REAL truth is there is no clear stair-step ladder to the various CC maps. I began with Age of Merchants and Coral Cairns. For a while, I did pretty well on those. Then Fuedal and AOR came along. They threw most people for a loop, but a lot of people have wound up enjoying them immensely. Now we have such a wide range of play styles the idea that any kind of a specific ladder such as you describe actually helping players to understand the maps just does not make any sense.

You started in one place, I started in a different place, that guy over there started in an even different place, but we all were limited and prevented from playing certain maps. None of us could play the maps that hadn't yet been developed, so we couldn't start there.

It's really not a sound argument to suggest that your idea of limiting maps is good because you were limited from "playing on maps that hadn't yet been developed".

The argument comes from the fact that all of us who are here playing games and conversing in fora are still here despite the fact that we were gradually eased into each of the new settings and new maps over time.

That isn't even an argument. It's taking a situation and trying to twist it as much as you can to fit what you WANT it to be.

We all stuck around because new facets of the site, new functionalities, new settings, and new maps were introduced piece by piece.

No. That is a lie. That is not even remotely true. We all stuck around for many different reasons, but they had nothing at all to do with "oh good, new things are being introduced at a nice, slow pace!". In point of fact, we have lost interested members precisely because of the inordinately slow pace at which things are implemented here.

The new recruits that join today are confronted with hundreds of maps and several settings whose funcationality is not readily apparent. Why not give new recruits these settings in a piecemeal fashion? We got to try the maps and settings in piecemeal form. I think new recruits should get that same benefit.

You see that as a benefit. I see that as a negative. My view has ALWAYS been that the more maps I can play, the better. In fact, the thing I love about the random map selection is that I can play any map at any time with no regard for any limitation to what I can play. Personally, I would not have stayed at this site if I were limited to so few maps upon joining. I'm personally even against the anti-farming-complicated-map limitation imposed, because I would have hated that restriction to be put on me.

Any new recruit can only play 4 maps at one time, and they can only physically be taking turns on one map at a time. The new recruit is limited to certain maps and restricted from other maps. I think that restriction is a good idea.

I see nothing that makes it inherently a good idea.

I'll admit, I've skimmed the majority of this thread. But the main conflict seems to be that some users don't think this should be forced, while others think it would be extremely helpful. Why don't we make this optional when you join? "Would you like to go through the New Recruit Tutorial? NOTE: Pressing 'NO' will not allow you to return to the tutorial later".

In being given the option of "Would you prefer to have all of our maps available to you or would you prefer to have maps given to you a set at a time?", do you think there will be a large clamoring for the second option? I can't imagine there are a LOT of people who would see that question and think "Sure, I'd rather not have access to all of the maps now". It just doesn't make sense to me. Thus, if this were implemented as only an option as you suggest...the very limited use of it in comparison to the very large time required to implement it would seem to be a rather large negative.

I agree with you Woodruff. I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

Which will never happen because they will have left the site by that point.

[PLAYER57832]

I agree with you Woodruff. I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

You say you agree, but launch into saying you "agree with" the exact opposite of what Woodruff has said he wants.

Your idea is not a training program, nor is it a good idea. And claiming that the ability to turn it off might make it OK is just a farce. New people won't know how to turn it off, so they will be stuck with your program, and will leave.

[Queen_Herpes]

I agree with you Woodruff. I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

You say you agree, but launch into saying you "agree with" the exact opposite of what Woodruff has said he wants.

Your idea is not a training program, nor is it a good idea. And claiming that the ability to turn it off might make it OK is just a farce. New people won't know how to turn it off, so they will be stuck with your program, and will leave.

I should have separated my comment like this:

I agree with what you said here, Woodruff.

To provide further clarification on that point, I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

[stahrgazer]

Map Categories

Potential Names for each level: Level 0 - Beginner, Level 1 - Novice, Level - 2 Intermediate, Level 3 - Competitive, Level 4 - Advanced, Level 5 - Professional, Level 6 - Experimental

Unlock Level 0: Classic Shapes, Classic Art, Archipelago, Canada, Caribbean Islands, CCU, Circus Maximus, Conquer 4, Doodle Earth, France, Haiti, High Seas, Hong Kong, Iceland, Indochina, Ireland, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Middle East, Mongol Empire, Netherlands, Oceania, Portugal, Puget Sound, WWII Iwo Jima. (25)

Unlock Level 1: Alexander’s Empire, Ancient Greece, Arctic, Australia, Brazil 2, British Isles 2, Cairns Metro, Discworld, Draknor - Level 1, Egypt: Lower, Egypt: Upper, Extreme Global Warming, Iberia, Land and Sea, Midgard, Midkemdil, Montreal, South America, U.S. Senate, USA, USA West, WWII Eastern Front. (22)

Unlock Level 2: 8 Thoughts, Africa, Asia, BeNeLux, Chinese Checkers, Dust Bowl, Egypt: Nubia, Egypt: Valley of the Kings, Europe, France 1789, Gilgamesh, Great Lakes, Greenland, Philippines, San Marino, Soviet Union, Sydney Metro, Tamriel, Triple Alliance, USA New England, USA Rockies, USA Southeast, USA Southwest, WWI Ottoman Empire, WWII Australia. (25)

Unlock Level 3: American Civil War, Battle of Actium, Berlin 1961, Cairns Coral Coast, Castle Lands, Charleston, Crossword, Duck and Cover, Europa, Greater China, Halloween Hollows, Imperium Romanum, Indian Empire, Italy, King of the Mountains, Malta, North America, San Francisco, Scotland, Space, USA Great Lakes, USApocalypse, Wales, World 2.1, WWI Western Front. (25)

Unlock Level 4: Arms Race!, Conquer Man, D-Day: Omaha Beach, Eastern Hemisphere, Europe 1914, Feudal War, Holy Roman Empire, New World, NYC, Oasis, Pearl Harbor, Poker Club, Route 66, Texan Wars, The Citadel, Treasures of Galapagos, WWII Europe. (17)

Unlock Level 5: Age of Merchants, Age of Realms 1, Age of Realms 2, Age of Realms 3, Bamboo Jack, Battle for Iraq!, City Mogul, Forbidden City, Madness, Operation Drug War, Poison Rome, Prohibition Chicago, Rail Australia, Rail Europe, Rail USA, Siege!, Solar System, Supermax: Prison Riot!, Waterloo, WWII Ardennes, WWII Gazala. (21)

Unlock Level 6:
-The Random Map (1 map, and it is not really a map per se as much as it is an option to play from one of all the maps, ergo a player would need to have unlocked all the maps via the preceding Unlock Levels in order to use the Random Map function in its current iteration.)
-All Beta Maps (Currently (November 5, 2009) there are 6 Beta Maps available to play) (Beta maps would be ascribed a particular level once they come out of Beta and have achieved their “final forge, quench.”)

I have zero clue where you're pulling your "levels" from except your own subjective opinion.

I'll agree Bamboo Jack can be really tough, and for its confusion, Rail Europe, Forbidden City, and Poison Rome are probably on par.

But many of the other maps you put in that last category are nowhere near the level of difficulty.

Similarly, your zero-thru-four levels look like you picked based on your favorites, while some of my earliest favorites are several levels up.

Sorry, QH, but with this idea, you're trying to regulate farming by calling new players stupid.

You're wrong. Some are, some aren't, and some are more naive or "brave" or "afraid to be considered scared" than others... but some new players are quite shrewd. Then you have some other players who've played your requisite number of games who don't know their tush from shinola on even the simplest of maps.

But if I were handcuffed to this extent because someone's afraid some player would take advantage of me, I wouldn't have stuck around, and I'd have wondered why I was being punished because someone ELSE is doing something "not nice." I'd wonder (well, yeah, I do wonder this, even now) why admin isn't working on regulating the "not nice" people rather than punishing someone just for being new.

But, I mean, really, you REALLY think Carribbean Isles is easier to play than British Isles? or Charleston is harder than Egypt: Vallye of the Kings?

No, QH. Initially your idea sounded neat. But the more I think of it, the more I think this is chaining up the boy because the dog might bite.

[Queen_Herpes]

Map Categories

Potential Names for each level: Level 0 - Beginner, Level 1 - Novice, Level - 2 Intermediate, Level 3 - Competitive, Level 4 - Advanced, Level 5 - Professional, Level 6 - Experimental

Unlock Level 0: Classic Shapes, Classic Art, Archipelago, Canada, Caribbean Islands, CCU, Circus Maximus, Conquer 4, Doodle Earth, France, Haiti, High Seas, Hong Kong, Iceland, Indochina, Ireland, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Middle East, Mongol Empire, Netherlands, Oceania, Portugal, Puget Sound, WWII Iwo Jima. (25)

Unlock Level 1: Alexander’s Empire, Ancient Greece, Arctic, Australia, Brazil 2, British Isles 2, Cairns Metro, Discworld, Draknor - Level 1, Egypt: Lower, Egypt: Upper, Extreme Global Warming, Iberia, Land and Sea, Midgard, Midkemdil, Montreal, South America, U.S. Senate, USA, USA West, WWII Eastern Front. (22)

Unlock Level 2: 8 Thoughts, Africa, Asia, BeNeLux, Chinese Checkers, Dust Bowl, Egypt: Nubia, Egypt: Valley of the Kings, Europe, France 1789, Gilgamesh, Great Lakes, Greenland, Philippines, San Marino, Soviet Union, Sydney Metro, Tamriel, Triple Alliance, USA New England, USA Rockies, USA Southeast, USA Southwest, WWI Ottoman Empire, WWII Australia. (25)

Unlock Level 3: American Civil War, Battle of Actium, Berlin 1961, Cairns Coral Coast, Castle Lands, Charleston, Crossword, Duck and Cover, Europa, Greater China, Halloween Hollows, Imperium Romanum, Indian Empire, Italy, King of the Mountains, Malta, North America, San Francisco, Scotland, Space, USA Great Lakes, USApocalypse, Wales, World 2.1, WWI Western Front. (25)

Unlock Level 4: Arms Race!, Conquer Man, D-Day: Omaha Beach, Eastern Hemisphere, Europe 1914, Feudal War, Holy Roman Empire, New World, NYC, Oasis, Pearl Harbor, Poker Club, Route 66, Texan Wars, The Citadel, Treasures of Galapagos, WWII Europe. (17)

Unlock Level 5: Age of Merchants, Age of Realms 1, Age of Realms 2, Age of Realms 3, Bamboo Jack, Battle for Iraq!, City Mogul, Forbidden City, Madness, Operation Drug War, Poison Rome, Prohibition Chicago, Rail Australia, Rail Europe, Rail USA, Siege!, Solar System, Supermax: Prison Riot!, Waterloo, WWII Ardennes, WWII Gazala. (21)

Unlock Level 6:
-The Random Map (1 map, and it is not really a map per se as much as it is an option to play from one of all the maps, ergo a player would need to have unlocked all the maps via the preceding Unlock Levels in order to use the Random Map function in its current iteration.)
-All Beta Maps (Currently (November 5, 2009) there are 6 Beta Maps available to play) (Beta maps would be ascribed a particular level once they come out of Beta and have achieved their “final forge, quench.”)

I have zero clue where you're pulling your "levels" from except your own subjective opinion.

I'll agree Bamboo Jack can be really tough, and for its confusion, Rail Europe, Forbidden City, and Poison Rome are probably on par.

But many of the other maps you put in that last category are nowhere near the level of difficulty.

Similarly, your zero-thru-four levels look like you picked based on your favorites, while some of my earliest favorites are several levels up.

Sorry, QH, but with this idea, you're trying to regulate farming by calling new players stupid.

You're wrong. Some are, some aren't, and some are more naive or "brave" or "afraid to be considered scared" than others... but some new players are quite shrewd. Then you have some other players who've played your requisite number of games who don't know their tush from shinola on even the simplest of maps.

But if I were handcuffed to this extent because someone's afraid some player would take advantage of me, I wouldn't have stuck around, and I'd have wondered why I was being punished because someone ELSE is doing something "not nice." I'd wonder (well, yeah, I do wonder this, even now) why admin isn't working on regulating the "not nice" people rather than punishing someone just for being new.

But, I mean, really, you REALLY think Carribbean Isles is easier to play than British Isles? or Charleston is harder than Egypt: Vallye of the Kings?

No, QH. Initially your idea sounded neat. But the more I think of it, the more I think this is chaining up the boy because the dog might bite.

I'm not married to the list. I did invest some time in attempting to determine which maps are more "complicated" or more "difficult." As yet, no one has said "Please move this map to that group" And I happily would move maps around - just provide some reasoning.. You are right...this is subjective. There is no way to remove subjectivity from this. We can attempt to be completely objective, but that would be utopian.

Bu all means, please help and provide your perspective on the maps.

[natty dread]

QH, you missed the main point of stahr's post.

Sorry, QH, but with this idea, you're trying to regulate farming by calling new players stupid.

You're wrong. Some are, some aren't, and some are more naive or "brave" or "afraid to be considered scared" than others... but some new players are quite shrewd. Then you have some other players who've played your requisite number of games who don't know their tush from shinola on even the simplest of maps.

But if I were handcuffed to this extent because someone's afraid some player would take advantage of me, I wouldn't have stuck around, and I'd have wondered why I was being punished because someone ELSE is doing something "not nice." I'd wonder (well, yeah, I do wonder this, even now) why admin isn't working on regulating the "not nice" people rather than punishing someone just for being new.

I agree btw.

[PLAYER57832]

I'm not married to the list. I did invest some time in attempting to determine which maps are more "complicated" or more "difficult."

No, you did not do real research. When you first came up with this idea, you had not even PLAYED many maps. You utterly ignored the comments of those of us who had and have.

As yet, no one has said "Please move this map to that group" And I happily would move maps around - just provide some reasoning.. You are right...this is subjective. There is no way to remove subjectivity from this. We can attempt to be completely objective, but that would be utopian.

The truth is you HAVE gotten a lot of specific criticism. I have said all along that AOR2 is a very EASY map. I pointed you to a list that really did categorize ALL the maps at the time (I kept it updated for over a year, though now it is out of date). So, your claim that "no one has offered ideas" really is just more of you only listening to people who agree with you or who you can somehow twist into thinking is agreement, as you have done with Woodruff.

Bu all means, please help and provide your perspective on the maps.

The "perspective" provided, had you bothered to really pay attention, was that this is a bad idea.

This thread is once again descending into various people providing legitimate criticism and disagreements, which you ignore or twist into something you claim is "agreement", which you use to launch into "further dialogue". You won't accept any clarification, all you will accept is "everybody really does like my idea..and those who don't either don't understand it or are just being obnoxious".

I have no idea why you have so fixated on this particular terrible idea, but it is time to let it die... and to let this thread die as well.

[stahrgazer]

Bu all means, please help and provide your perspective on the maps.

Deal. Here it is:
Unlock Level 0:

• Classic - If you've played a Hasbro game, you'll recognize everything except fog of war and nuclear - every other variation can be found in some of the Hasbro game options.
  
• Archipelago, Canada, Caribbean Islands, France, Haiti,Hong Kong, Iceland, Indochina, Ireland, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Middle East, Mongol Empire, Netherlands, Oceania, Portugal, Puget Sound, WWII Iwo Jima, Alexander’s Empire, Ancient Greece, Arctic, Australia, Brazil 2, British Isles 2, Cairns Metro,Iberia, Midgard, Midkemdil, Montreal, South America, Great Lakes, Greenland, Philippines, Africa, Asia, BeNeLux, Soviet Union,Tamriel, Cairns Coral Coast, , Charleston, Greater China, Indian Empire, Italy, North America, San Francisco, Scotland,
  While the maps appear greatly different, and continent shape changes game play, these maps have features no different from Classic. New players should avoid speed games on these maps until they are comfortable with the pattern of play
  
• CCU, Circus Maximus, Conquer 4, Doodle Earth, High Seas, Discworld, Castle Lands
  straightforward looking maps but because of their small sizes or circular patterns, new players should be cautious
  
• 8 Thoughts, Chinese Checkers, Draknor - Level 1, Egypt: Lower, Egypt: Upper, Extreme Global Warming, Land and Sea, U.S. Senate, USA, USA West, WWII Eastern Front, Dust Bowl, Egypt: Nubia, Egypt: Valley of the Kings, Europe, France 1789, Gilgamesh, San Marino, Sydney Metro, Triple Alliance, USA New England, USA Rockies, USA Southeast, USA Southwest, WWI Ottoman Empire, WWII Australia. American Civil War, Crossword, Duck and Cover, Halloween Hollows, Imperium Romanum, Europa,Battle of Actium, Berlin 1961, King of the Mountains, Malta, Space, USA Great Lakes, USApocalypse, Wales, World 2.1, WWI Western Front. D-Day: Omaha Beach, Feudal War, Holy Roman Empire, New World, Arms Race!, Conquer Man, , Eastern Hemisphere, Europe 1914, NYC, Oasis, Pearl Harbor, Poker Club, Route 66, Texan Wars, The Citadel, WWII Europe, Age of Merchants, , Battle for Iraq! Madness, WWII Gazala
  These maps each have at least one new feature, game may not be as straightforward as they appear, legend should be closely reviewed for non-obvious bonuses
  
• Bamboo Jack, Forbidden City, Operation Drug War, Poison Rome, Prohibition Chicago, Rail Australia, Rail Europe, Rail USA, Siege!, Solar System, Supermax: Prison Riot!, Waterloo, WWII Ardennes, Stalingrad, Das Schloss
  Because of the sizes, bombardments, multiple and varied bonuses, these maps tend to take understanding the map, what assaults where. Players could gain that understanding by studying the map and legends carefully before playing; could get it from team games; could get it from losing a few till they understand - should avoid speed games before playing
  
• Treasures of Galapagos, Age of Realms 1, Age of Realms 2, Age of Realms 3, City Mogul
  These maps tend to have a set strategy; newcomers may wish to play team games with a more familiar partner unless they like a "lose till I learn" education. By about the third loss, they should figure it out

Here's the rest of my point:

Once a player "gets" fog of war, the rest is based on understanding the specific map and its strategies.

I can play 2 billion games on Classic and it still won't tell me how to win on Stalingrad, Asia, CCU, and all the rest, the first time. Only studying those maps and their features will tell me how to win on them. Therefore, the "unlock" idea doesn't work.

The last series is the series of maps with very specific strategies that only playing the map, win or lose, will help one learn. Therefore, the "unlock" idea doesn't work.

Now, a new player might be vulnerable to vultures on every map, even on Classic with fog, when playing the maps the first few times.

Locking up the player because the dog might bite is still the wrong way to go.

Rather than continue trying to chain up the child, work on getting admin to muzzle the dogs more than they do.. and encourage new players to read the Strategy Guides that a group of people are working hard on, to help new players, or old players confronted with new maps, understand how to win on the VARIETY Conquer Club offers, that EVERY new player ought to see.

[Queen_Herpes]

This has nothing to do with regulating farming.

[PLAYER57832]

This has nothing to do with regulating farming.

You did have that listed as a reason early on.

[Queen_Herpes]

This has nothing to do with regulating farming.

You did have that listed as a reason early on.

Ancillary benefit, not the reason to make the changes.

[Woodruff]

To provide further clarification on that point, I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

Which will never happen because they will have left the site by that point.

[Doc_Brown]

In being given the option of "Would you prefer to have all of our maps available to you or would you prefer to have maps given to you a set at a time?", do you think there will be a large clamoring for the second option? I can't imagine there are a LOT of people who would see that question and think "Sure, I'd rather not have access to all of the maps now". It just doesn't make sense to me. Thus, if this were implemented as only an option as you suggest...the very limited use of it in comparison to the very large time required to implement it would seem to be a rather large negative.

I agree with you Woodruff. I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

So, you're acknowledging that new players would not voluntarily choose this option. You're, in essence, telling them:

We're going to make this site a lot less fun for your first four months here because we don't trust you to not screw up our games. We know better than you do what's good for you, and we're going to force you to jump through some arbitrary hoops in a fixed track based on arbitrary and subjective ideas about what settings are easiest for everyone. Even though there is no teaching involved, we're going to call this "training." And we're going to reduce the amount of fun you are able to have on this site for your first four months because we know that when you have fewer opportunities for enjoyment here, you're much more likely to stick around.

[Doc_Brown]

To provide further clarification on that point, I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

Which will never happen because they will have left the site by that point.

This is exactly right. The so-called "99%ers" (who, I suspect are more like 20+% of the people that join this site and stick around for any length of time) will simply not join in the first place once they realize how limited their options are. They won't stick around long enough to find the way to bypass training.

[Doc_Brown]

Based on posts in this thread, here's the breakdown of opinions:
Posts in favor:
Queen_Herpes
SirSebstar

Posts opposed:
JoshyBoy
natty_dread
PLAYER57832
mpjh
TheForgivenOne
Doc_Brown
Woodruff
macbone
blakebowling
stahrgazer

[Queen_Herpes]

In being given the option of "Would you prefer to have all of our maps available to you or would you prefer to have maps given to you a set at a time?", do you think there will be a large clamoring for the second option? I can't imagine there are a LOT of people who would see that question and think "Sure, I'd rather not have access to all of the maps now". It just doesn't make sense to me. Thus, if this were implemented as only an option as you suggest...the very limited use of it in comparison to the very large time required to implement it would seem to be a rather large negative.

I agree with you Woodruff. I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

So, you're acknowledging that new players would not voluntarily choose this option. You're, in essence, telling them:

We're going to make this site a lot less fun for your first four months here because we don't trust you to not screw up our games. We know better than you do what's good for you, and we're going to force you to jump through some arbitrary hoops in a fixed track based on arbitrary and subjective ideas about what settings are easiest for everyone. Even though there is no teaching involved, we're going to call this "training." And we're going to reduce the amount of fun you are able to have on this site for your first four months because we know that when you have fewer opportunities for enjoyment here, you're much more likely to stick around.

So the site was "unfun" when there were only a few dozen maps and two settings?

[Queen_Herpes]

To provide further clarification on that point, I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

Which will never happen because they will have left the site by that point.

The 99%ers I was talking about are the people to whom Doc_Brown opened my eyes about their existence. They are the people who would search to find the way to unlock the training.

[Queen_Herpes]

To provide further clarification on that point, I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

Which will never happen because they will have left the site by that point.

This is exactly right. The so-called "99%ers" (who, I suspect are more like 20+% of the people that join this site and stick around for any length of time) will simply not join in the first place once they realize how limited their options are. They won't stick around long enough to find the way to bypass training.

I think that comment is flat wrong. I've never, ever decided to "not play" or "not buy" or "not join" a game simply because my options were limited when I was a novice. Every gamer is accustomed to limited options. It doesn't matter the game, the options are limited at the beginning to allow the novice to experience some success and get some understanding of the way the game is played, use controls, etc., before obtaining or unlocking those settings, map packs, fields, bats, weapons, (whatever) which allow you to compete in the open games online.

Further, let's take Junior Soccer as an example. When a 5 year old starts to play, they don't immediately play on the large field with a large ball. Instead, they are given a smaller ball, smaller field, and fewer players per team on the field. Each year, as they progress, the ball increases in size, the field gets larger, and more players are put on the field. How about Junior Basketball? You start with a foam ball before you join a league on a hoop that goes just a few feet in the air. When you join a team and a league, the first court you play on is 1/2 court with a lowered rim and a smaller ball. The court size increases over time, the ball size changes, and the rim is raised up.

With this and MANY other examples in sports and games, novices are given a slow introduction to the game so that they have a chance of experiencing success. Success is fun. Success doesn't always mean winning the game. Success can mean accomplishing other goals. At Conquerclub, some of those novice goals include "understanding spoils." Still others include "understanding fog,..." and the list goes on. Allow novices at conquerclub to experience small successes of understanding different settings, even different maps, before moving on to the more challenging settings. The current set-up at conquerclub pits novices in a way that would be similar to novice baseball players (if they did this in baseball, which they wouldn't): no tee, no coach-pitch, just player pitch on the professional field.

Lets take this to math class in First Grade. Here at conquerclub currently, the first grader is told, "Hey go out there and discover what you need to learn about multiplication and factoring. When you think you're ready, try some algebraic functions." Whereas, in most first grade classrooms, the novice mathemeticians are still learning to identify numbers and perhaps discover some relationships between those numbers as they relate to addition and subtraction. We could even take this to a 7th grade classroom. I know I've played against some members here who are (or claim to be) in middle school. How do you teach algebraic problem solving coupled with geometric shapes? Do you jump straight into Euclidean Geometry? Or do you start with basic algebra functions and basic geometric shapes, and build from there?

[Doc_Brown]

So, you're acknowledging that new players would not voluntarily choose this option. You're, in essence, telling them:

We're going to make this site a lot less fun for your first four months here because we don't trust you to not screw up our games. We know better than you do what's good for you, and we're going to force you to jump through some arbitrary hoops in a fixed track based on arbitrary and subjective ideas about what settings are easiest for everyone. Even though there is no teaching involved, we're going to call this "training." And we're going to reduce the amount of fun you are able to have on this site for your first four months because we know that when you have fewer opportunities for enjoyment here, you're much more likely to stick around.

So the site was "unfun" when there were only a few dozen maps and two settings?

It was "less fun" and had "fewer opportunities for enjoyment" than it does now. And I suspect that they had far fewer people joining the site on a daily basis.

And nice job completely sidestepping the entire point of my post: Your suggestion pushes onto new players something they don't want (a fact you tacitly acknowledged).

[Queen_Herpes]

So, you're acknowledging that new players would not voluntarily choose this option. You're, in essence, telling them:

We're going to make this site a lot less fun for your first four months here because we don't trust you to not screw up our games. We know better than you do what's good for you, and we're going to force you to jump through some arbitrary hoops in a fixed track based on arbitrary and subjective ideas about what settings are easiest for everyone. Even though there is no teaching involved, we're going to call this "training." And we're going to reduce the amount of fun you are able to have on this site for your first four months because we know that when you have fewer opportunities for enjoyment here, you're much more likely to stick around.

So the site was "unfun" when there were only a few dozen maps and two settings?

It was "less fun" and had "fewer opportunities for enjoyment" than it does now. And I suspect that they had far fewer people joining the site on a daily basis.

And nice job completely sidestepping the entire point of my post: Your suggestion pushes onto new players something they don't want (a fact you tacitly acknowledged).

Read the response right above this one of yours that I am quoting. For the record, you cannot push something on someone that they don't want if they aren't yet a member of the site.

[Doc_Brown]

To provide further clarification on that point, I think that this option to drop the tutorial should be hidden. Available to players who had a benevolent friend bring them to the site, or available to the 99%ers who will take the time to read and search their way through the fora and rules and "how to play." Once found, then they can bypass the training...for good.

Which will never happen because they will have left the site by that point.

This is exactly right. The so-called "99%ers" (who, I suspect are more like 20+% of the people that join this site and stick around for any length of time) will simply not join in the first place once they realize how limited their options are. They won't stick around long enough to find the way to bypass training.

I think that comment is flat wrong. I've never, ever decided to "not play" or "not buy" or "not join" a game simply because my options were limited when I was a novice.

I have. Especially if I could find another option that maybe wasn't quite as polished but offered me a lot more freedom. It's one of the reasons many people chose the Android over the iPhone.

Further, let's take Junior Soccer as an example. When a 5 year old starts to play, they don't immediately play on the large field with a large ball. Instead, they are given a smaller ball, smaller field, and fewer players per team on the field. Each year, as they progress, the ball increases in size, the field gets larger, and more players are put on the field.

Granting for a moment that your analogy has any bearing on this situation (a position I would strongly dispute, but it's the least nonsensical of your analogies), your proposal assumes that everyone that signs up to play soccer is a 5-year old novice and treats them that way. It doesn't ask them if they're actually 20-year olds that have been playing soccer for years. It just tells everyone, "here's your beginner ball - now go play on the pint-size field. Next year you get a larger ball and larger field." So what do the 20-year olds do? A very few might go to the office and ask if there's any way they can go play on an appropriately sized field. Most will just say, "Screw this! I'm going across town to play there. The fields may not be as well kept, and they don't have the same quality referees, but at least I can play an enjoyable game!" Now, if you had 99% 5-year olds showing up and 1% of these experienced 20-year olds, it might not be an issue. But, just as a community soccer field is going to attract people anywhere from 5 to 50 with all sorts of different levels of experience, so this site attracts people with all manner of different preferences and skill levels.

[Doc_Brown]

For the record, you cannot push something on someone that they don't want if they aren't yet a member of the site.

And with your suggestion, they never will be.

[PLAYER57832]

So the site was "unfun" when there were only a few dozen maps and two settings?

You make more than one logical error in that statement.

There is a difference between things plain not being available and things being available, but withheld. Your list is not even based on history.. or anything else that the rest of us (most of whom HAVE PLAYED all the maps) can garner. I mean, if your argument is it was better when you first started, then that would be a logical place to start, but you have eliminated many maps that were available then.

However, the main problem here is just a misunderstanding on your part as to how to judge growth, on a site like this. You want to say that the rate of growth is slowing, so that means there is a problem. In fact, what you need to look at is whether the site is growing overall or shrinking. As far as I know, the stie has continued to grow, with a slight blip (perhaps) due to classic issues (NOT within CC's control.. but if you were not here then, peruse the threads on it before chomping in, if you were.. then you know of what I speak).

Here is the thing. ANY new site will immediately show wide growth. The site is new, and there are always a few people who will be interested. In fact, often the initial issue is keeping growth under control. Sometimes the site itself limits advertising initially, up until they get enough servers, etc. I can remember when CC was growing so fast, it was a problem because the servers kept crashing and having other issues. Normal "growing pains", but the thing is too fast a growth can sometimes be more of a problem than stagnation. What you want is steady, constant growth to replace those who leave and gain a bit.

So, where is CC in this? On the one hand, I am sure there is a part of Lack that would like to see constant, unending growth to "infinity". But, there is an old saying "try to please everyone and you please no one". Lack has carved out a nice niche here. He attracts varied people, sees (as far as I know) more or less constant growth. Expanding too much might garner a new people for a time, but would they stay? The answer is "NO".

Now, I realize you want to argue that your system is designed to weed people out. However, you cannot both do that AND increase membership. It just doesn't work that way. This is a volume game. A lot of people visit, a small percentage join, an even smaller percentage get premium. Only if there were a big problem with, say ... I don't know, maybe people joining freestyle games and then leaving or some such, only then woudl a limiting program make sense. This IS the case with the very complicated maps and Assasin maps. Even so, the limits are over quickly for a reason. The reason is that if you want to play here, you need to learn how to play. Anyhow, you have continued to fail any connection between your set system and people leaving. You have not only not shown a solution, you have not even correctly identified a real problem. And, you keep bouncing around to find "ancillary" benefits in what seems to most of us to be a back-handed attempt to justify your plan.

Finally, regarding training. There IS a training program, SOC. It is currently limited, but focused on the most popular map and style of play. There already are plans to expand this, but it takes time. You plan definitely does not provide any kind of training.

So, to sum up. You have not correctly identified any real problem. You have not provided a real solution to even those things you have brought up as problems, but you still continue insisting this is a good plan.

QH it is time to let this rest. In two years, you have only convinced a handful of people. At this point, I believe those of us who respond are doing so just to be sure you don't continue in your mistaken impression that silence somehow means everyone not posting agrees with your idea (an idea you seem comfortable believing, apparently). We will continue to do so.. until this idea and ALL of these threads are firmly laid to rest.

[SirSebstar]

player57832. If you accuse QH from generalizing the responses, could you please leave out the part where you do the same? its a bit childish now.

also, the [I want to bypass the tutorial] button is available. I know you have said whats the point? in that case. But believe me, a lot of newbies will find it more enjoyable this way. Also I imagine, like completing the soc, there will be a medal for those who did complete the tutorial..

That the list is not based on history is something you can remedy by creating a better list. My thanks by the way for your earlier remarks to that effect. QH still needs to convince you, if possible, but that was a contribution.

myself i am rethinking the whole idea a bit. But only to make it more...implementable and in some way ... more logical..

right now i am thinking unlockable paths, like.
[start a game]
[learn more about the assassin games]
[learn more about objective maps]
[I don't need to learn, I want to play all maps and settings right now]

press:[learn more about objective maps] bla bla bla, you have now unlocked the objective based maps.

this would be to much?

[PLAYER57832]

player57832. If you accuse QH from generalizing the responses, could you please leave out the part where you do the same? its a bit childish now.

also, the [I want to bypass the tutorial] button is available. I know you have said whats the point? in that case. But believe me, a lot of newbies will find it more enjoyable this way. Also I imagine, like completing the soc, there will be a medal for those who did complete the tutorial..

Sorry, but I utterly disagree and to convince anyone other than QH and a few isolated individuals, you need to show more evidence. Note that I have played more than a few games with newbies myself, and have been involved in some "background" discussions on this issue.

That the list is not based on history is something you can remedy by creating a better list.

First establish that there is a need.
Then establish that limiting games in this manner will help. So far, no real evidence is presented.

To clarify, you and QH saying you have talked to people and believe this to be true is not evidence. Particularly not when you have several of us who have gotten the exact opposite idea from also talking to people. Why is YOUR assessment so much more valid than ours? You have not answered that except to elude to stats you have not presented (and no, for reasons already stated, QH data does not really show what she believes it shows)

My thanks by the way for your earlier remarks to that effect. QH still needs to convince you, if possible, but that was a contribution.

I am and always have been against this idea. AND, despite QH claims to have made a "lot of investigation", I know this is not true, because I was here when she first presented this idea. She has altered every post she made so much that might not be currently evident, but just ask any of the older players who were also here. When she first came up with this idea, she had not even played most of the games she criticized. Exactly how, then can she claim her list had any kind of validity when she had never even played those maps!

myself i am rethinking the whole idea a bit. But only to make it more...implementable and in some way ... more logical..

You have yet to truly explain why or show real evidence that this would work. Being a mod does not somehow make your ideas more valid or more workable. If anything, you should work harder to be truly objective, to monitor, not to take sides as you seem to be doing in so many threads.

right now i am thinking unlockable paths, like.
[start a game]
[learn more about the assassin games]
[learn more about objective maps]
[I don't need to learn, I want to play all maps and settings right now]

press:[learn more about objective maps] bla bla bla, you have now unlocked the objective based maps.

this would be to much?

First, show there is a problem. You have not yet. I believe both you and QH have utterly missed this argument. Or, perhaps don't understand what is meant by proof of a problem. (I KNOW that is the case for QH! I have tried, again, to explain above why this is so).

THEN show the specific reasons why your plan or QH's plan will fix those problems.

Right now, it seems like the only reason this thread is even alive is because you, a mod have taken an interest in it. Sorry, but I don't believe I am the only one thinking that.

And, here is another thing. Its not just that you haven't shown proof of a problem, you have not shown that you even really get what the SOC is about or the impact it has had OR the plans there to improve and increase its use. Case in point -- your statement that manybe people should get a pm informing them of the SOC. They DO! They have almost from the start of SOC. Second, you don't seem aware that there is already an awards program. Not only do you get a trophy, but you get 3 months free premium when you graduate SOC!

Finally, if you absolutely and truly are set on this idea the closest I could come is to say maybe you could have a "suggested list" for newbies. Some maps ARE easier. I have given people such a list myself many, many times and can write one up again, along with a brief bit about why I suggest that. BUT, any time you make it a forced issue, you are playig "nanny". If someone want so limit, they can do it well on their own, with guidance. MOST people, however won't want that.

And, again, that really does not have much to do with QH's idea.. and is something other people have already suggested many time (I believe there is more than one such list out there already, in fact, I know there is because I have contributed to that thread).