inter clan tourny debate

by **joeyjordison** on Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:09 pm

change the tourny privs back to how they used to work until the new system is in place

ok first off can we keep this civil with serious suggestions.

i propose that whilst the clan system is acknowledged as needing improvements it now works worse than it did. would it be possible to allow clans to continue to organise their challenges etc in the tournaments thread until the new clan system is in place.

i have pointed out that tournaments are allowed to have requirements and at the moment the 2 types of games which are in question are clan related ones (where the requirement is to be in a clan) and rank related ones (where the requirement is to be of a certain rank which is very common in tournaments)

i can understand the objection to clan games but rank related ones seems off.

while we are talking about it does anyone have an estimate of how long it will be to put the new clan system in place?

i know you are going as quick as you can lack and i don't want to put pressure on but due to recent circumstances all our clan's regular activities have been put on hold and also that of other groups

priority:3/4

by **wicked** on Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:17 pm

Please use the form.

by **AK_iceman** on Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:29 pm

The new clan system will be available when phpBB Rivals is released. If you feel you need to pressure somebody to get it done faster, don't talk to Lack, talk to phpBB.

joeyjordison wrote:would it be possible to allow clans to continue to organise their challenges etc in the tournaments thread until the new clan system is in place.

Yes, we already have a system for this. If you want to start an in-clan tourney or some "Elite" games, then all you need to do is host an acceptable public tourney, and then you can use the privs for 3 months.

by **Nikolai** on Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:15 pm

AK, you dropped a tournament on myself and a bunch of others not so long ago because it was too much work and you were too busy. Remember War of the Worlds? You, of all people, should know that running a good tourney is a lot of work, and it's not exactly something that a person who just wants to set up clan challenges or open games needs to add to their schedule. And you apparently aren't interested in sham tourneys, so it would have to be a tourney that takes time to administer. (With which position I happen to agree.) So the system is dysfunctional, or at least difficult to work with - and it's a problem with our system, not phpBB.
People have mentioned private games before, but unless I'm greatly mistaken, you have to be in the game if it's private - that's the big advantage to tourney games, that you can set them up for others.
I'll see if I can get joey to put this suggestion in the proper form. In the meantime, can we at least be considering a simple change in the requirements for tourney privs?

by **AK_iceman** on Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:36 pm

Did you actually have a suggestion? All I have heard so far are complaints about how the system doesn't work for one particular group of people. Everyone else that sets up clan tourneys and Elite Games has done the required work by setting up a public tourney first.

And as for War of the Worlds, I didn't drop it, I'm waiting for the update where Lack implements some tourney goodies to make it easier to PM game information to lots of people. I had a co-host to help me (Highborn), but he left CC for good and I can't handle it by myself right now. But don't worry, it will be finished.

by **Nikolai** on Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:25 pm

My first suggestion would be to give clan leaders tourney privs for clan purposes. Since Lack is limiting the number of clans anyway, I don't see this causing problems. My second suggestion would be to consider taking the 3 month limit off so that as long as people really are doing something useful, they can retain tourney privs. They'll have to answer the weekly pms, but that's not a big deal. I don't know what would be easiest for the mods, and I'm trying not to generate a lot of extra work, so tell me if either or both of these ideas causes problems. But I do think that a whole bunch of people adding new 8 man tourneys or some other such lame idea every 3 months isn't going to be what you want to deal with.

Glad to hear War of the Worlds isn't dead. I wasn't trying to accuse you of something, I was just pointing out that running a tourney is a lot of work to ask someone to do regularly just so that they can provide an additional service for others.

by **joeyjordison** on Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:54 am

wicked wrote:Please use the form.

sorry wicked i forgot the priority :oops:

by **AK_iceman** on Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:45 am

Ok, let me explain something to you.

I am a TOURNAMENT Director. I give people TOURNAMENT priveleges. The key word being tournament. :wink:

You still with me?

Let me break this down... tournament priveleges are for people to organize tournaments with. Myself, Lack, the Mod Squad, and a set group of Advisors came up with these rules to limit the abuse that has been going on with tourney games. These are priveleges that you must earn by hosting a public tournament. Now, I would imagine if there weren't any rules, that pretty much everyone who knew about them would want them so they can label their games. But for the people who are actually trying to host a tournament, do you realize how crowded and unorganized the tourney join page would be?

The rules are not difficult, the only complaint I have had so far has been from Marvaddin, and I have been following these rules for quite some time. Now, if an honest Tournament Organizer has a problem with the system, then I would like to hear from him to see if there really is something that is needed to be fixed. As for the Dragoons, it sounds like what you are looking for is Naming Private Games. This means you wouldn't have to earn anything, but you can still organize your "Elite" games the easy way.

by **Nikolai** on Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:28 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a clan tourney is still a tournament, right? Same with an inter-clan challenge. And again, private games are not functional for this purpose, because they rely on the individual who created them remaining in them. Look, we're not requesting that the rules be eliminated. We know that they serve a good and reasonable purpose. We just think that the purpose would be better served by a slight change in the rules.
Did you have any problems with either/both of my two above suggestions?

by **joeyjordison** on Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:23 pm

AK u are 100% correct about that 1 thing. i would love to be able to label private games. the only problem is that isn't implemented.... what i'm suggesting is a in between measure while the system is waiting to be introduced.

also i'm really looking forward to that war of the worlds coz i can't wait to get my hands on that prize!

by **AK_iceman** on Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:04 pm

Tournament priveleges were not created for Clan Tourneys or Elite Games. They were created for public tournaments open to everyone. My "job" here is to make sure that the people organizing public tournaments get the priveleges they need to run them. When we came up with this set of rules, we were generous enough to offer a system for Elite games and clan tourneys.

by **Nikolai** on Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:12 pm

Maybe I should ask this: how are you defining "public tourney"? My biggest problem right now is that something like the Dragoon Open Games or a clan tourney meets as many of the qualifications as many tourneys. And since you apparently have no practical problems with my suggestions, just ideological, I'm a bit confused about how this is driven. I mean, it makes perfect sense to me to say that a tourney for the top 200 players is public, because anyone can get there with some work. But a simliar rationale applies to Dragoon Open Games and clan tourneys and Elite games (which I don't know a whole lot about, and so am trying to stay away from.)
Also

When we came up with this set of rules, we were generous enough to offer a system for Elite games and clan tourneys.

I repeat my earlier point about how it doesn't make sense to make someone go through extra work just so that they can offer a service to others.

by **joeyjordison** on Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:41 pm

AK_iceman wrote:public tournaments get the priveleges

ok so we have established that only public tournaments get priveleges which is correct in my view. thing is i myself hosted a tournament for sergeants and below and i have seen many tournaments offering places only to people of a certain rank. that is all that the open games are.

we even have leagues that run.

is the problem linked with the fact the games have 'dragoons' in the title and therefore appear specific to a clan?

by **AK_iceman** on Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:01 pm

No, the problem with the Dragoon Open Games is that they are not a tournament. :wink:

by **Nikolai** on Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:05 am

Come on, AK, help me out here. You're objecting to allowing tourney privs for clan business like Dragoon Open Games or clan challenges or inter-clan tourneys because ideologically, you don't think that these items meet the qalifications for tourney privs. I'm asking why, ideologically, these items are different from what you have set down as required to qualify for tourny privs.
We've already established that there are no practical problems with allowing tourney privs for this stuff: now I'm trying to figure out if there's an effective difference between what you currently have as required qualifications and the things we're saying should be legitimate qualifications. If there is no effective difference, then there's no reason not to amend the rules for tourney privs. So... help me out?

by **joeyjordison** on Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:08 am

AK_iceman wrote:No, the problem with the Dragoon Open Games is that they are not a tournament.

so if they had a scoring system they would be a tournament?
even if the nature of the scoring system means that it could go on for a very long time rite?

now i know it was a pedantic suggestion but my scoring system for the open games proved that the only difference between the open games and some tournaments is the lack of a points system

by **AndrewB** on Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:39 am

AK_iceman wrote:Tournament priveleges were not created for Clan Tourneys or Elite Games. They were created for public tournaments open to everyone. My "job" here is to make sure that the people organizing public tournaments get the priveleges they need to run them. When we came up with this set of rules, we were generous enough to offer a system for Elite games and clan tourneys.

Ak_iceman, i had exactly same problem with those rules as well. It may not necessarily for you to answer though.

So here is my problem, which needs to be fixed somehow.

I am managing tournaments for Super Elite. You can say it is "in clan" tournament, open to the selected members of CC, which are all, by the way, are paying members. Also we usually have 10-15 ongoing open Super Elite games.

So I need to create a GAME (whether it is a tournament game or anything else), which I won't join automatically. Whether is has any labels or not, it does not matter for me. Whether it goes to the tournament page or any other page, or in fact not displayed at all, again it does not matter to me. As long as people can find it through "Game Finder" it is all I need. I will distribute those games numbers to the required people myself. Currently ONLY tournament game allows you to create this kind of the game.

I understand that from your perspective it is not a "tournament" game. And I understand that giving tournament privileges for those games is a work-around, not a fix.

My main problem with the work around, that you get those privileges ONLY after hosting a "public" tournament, and u get to keep it only for 3 months.

In one period of time, I had 4 (four) private tournaments in Super Elite going in the same time, currently I have 3 ongoing. So for me to host another "public" tournament will take up a lot of my time, which I just don't have.

I hope I have explained my need properly, and looking forward to get an answer to my problem.

by **joeyjordison** on Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:46 pm

thats exactly how i feel. as you put very well tourny privs are a work around. what i object to is the fact the that while we have no clan system in place for games the work around isn't being used!

by **AndrewB** on Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:19 pm

Anyone?

by **Nikolai** on Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:57 am

Hello...

(Yes, it's a bump.)

by **AndrewB** on Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:11 am

I have a feeling that we are getting ignored here....

by **hwhrhett** on Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:51 am

by **spinwizard** on Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:13 pm

by **Nikolai** on Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:27 am

I'm trying to give the mods the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're just busy, but it's getting steadily more difficult... and I would be disappointed if they just started ignoring us, since I thought we might be getting somewhere.