nick13, Micker (defacto double move)

[carblue5757]

nick13, Micker

Game number: http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=302501

Comments: Caused me and my teammate to miss a turn directly after they played in a freestyle matchup, giving them two consecutive turns. The proof is in the game log.



carblue5757

[Windparson]

I think that is the infamous "defacto double move", maybe not the most honorable move, but legal. Do a search on it.

Windparson

[carblue5757]

So they can keep doing this to us every round and not so much as recieve a warning! Well, with this logic, couldnt everyone start doing this? Then you have a battle between the cheaters and the honorable players, and guess what! the honorable players will leave and the cheaters will remain. Is that what you want to happen to this website? To knowingly cheat a victory is wrong and should be treated as such, If you are going to punish those that cheat by multiple accounts or secret alliances...what about those that actually cheat in manipulating game play?

[b.k. barunt]

Welcome to freestyle.

[Windparson]

I agree with your feelings in this matter. But it is a legal tactic. My advice to you, and I'm not being a smarta.., is to avoid Free Style. I very rarely play a free style because some of the tactics that are used are, well, distasteful to me and many players here.

You almost have to sit at your computer and hit refresh constantly to be ready at the end of the allowed hour for moving. You are not really losing a turn, they are just getting back to back turns, before you and your partner get to move.

If you search the forums, there is advice on tactics to use in Free Style and what to expect. There are several players who have made a "science" of Free Style playing. I remember the first time I came up against a "professional" set of Free Stylers. They beat my partner and myself like red-headed step children! I just chalked it up as a learning experience and got on with me CC life, avoiding Free Style as much as possible.

Hope that helps. Again, many people here agree with your feelings, but the tactic is "legal" if distasteful.

Hope that helps,

Windparson

[Master Bush]

I moved this thread to General Discussion because it's not cheating. If you wanna discuss if this move is weak or not, this is your forum.

[Micker]

Sorry, at the time I did it I didn't realise it was such a dis-honest move. Now that I look back on it, both nick and I have realised that although it was legal, it is unfair to the other team. Yes the other team gets double reinforcements next round, but we now know how this really effects the game. So again, I apologise for making such a dishonest move, and we have decided we won't do it again.

However, I would have to agree with you that there should probably be some option made to stop this kind of move being made.

I know this won't make up for what we did, but if its any consolation you two will probably still win the battle as nick can't make the rest of his moves. We both agreed to not use this tactic in any of our battles anymore anyway. Anyway, look at the game chat, we have explained everything there. Once again, sorry for that!

[alster]

So they can keep doing this to us every round and not so much as recieve a warning!

Yes. It’s a fair tactic.

Well, with this logic, couldnt everyone start doing this?

Yes. And quite a few do. All skilled freestyle players are aware of this glitch in the game engine.

Then you have a battle between the cheaters and the honorable players,

It’s not cheating. And “honorable” is a subjective term with many shades of gray. Words are inherently ambiguous.

and guess what! the honorable players will leave and the cheaters will remain. Is that what you want to happen to this website?

Just be aware of the settings and the game engine and you’ll be fine.

This is a public thing. If people spent some time browsing the forums, they wouldn’t always have to learn things the hard way.

To knowingly cheat a victory is wrong and should be treated as such, If you are going to punish those that cheat by multiple accounts or secret alliances...what about those that actually cheat in manipulating game play?

It’s not cheating. And it’s not really manipulation (but that depends on how you define the term).

If you read the two rules of CC you’ll notice that they are, in fact, only two rules. One cannot compare this move to cheating.

[alster]

Sorry, at the time I did it I didn't realise it was such a dis-honest move. Now that I look back on it, both nick and I have realised that although it was legal, it is unfair to the other team. Yes the other team gets double reinforcements next round, but we now know how this really effects the game. So again, I apologise for making such a dishonest move, and we have decided we won't do it again.

It’s not really such a dishonest move. That guy just blew it up beyond recognition.

It’s the opposite teams fault. If they enter a freestyle game – they should be aware of this possibility. They cannot blame anyone besides themselves. This is all public information.

You broke no rules, no nothing. Whether people like it or not is a subjective things. Some players are upset by cursing in the game chats, some not. Some are upset by the de facto double turn move, some not. Some are upset by skipping turns, some not.

The bottom line is: It’s all subjective notions of fair play. But, anyone who enters a public game cannot expect the opponents to play according to his personal standards. A lot of people in here really need to learn that.

However, I would have to agree with you that there should probably be some option made to stop this kind of move being made.

I concur. I think the freestyle game setting would gain in popularity if the game engine was tweaked to not allowing this move.

I know this won't make up for what we did, but if its any consolation you two will probably still win the battle as nick can't make the rest of his moves. We both agreed to not use this tactic in any of our battles anymore anyway. Anyway, look at the game chat, we have explained everything there. Once again, sorry for that!

My God… Calm down. Seriously. Really. Calm down. You did nothing wrong.

[carblue5757]

Yes. And quite a few do. All skilled freestyle players are aware of this glitch in the game engine.

Ususing a "glitch" to your advantage is cheating in my opinion, and I'm sure Im not the only one. The ones who dont have a problem with this "strategy" are those that would feel comfortable using it themselves.

Really its not common, I've played 50+ freestyle doubles and have yet to see it.

That being said, The Two guys both apologized and I believe them when they say that it was an accident and they really seem like nice guys. So I am dropping this whole thing. =D Happy Gaming all!

[alster]

Ususing a "glitch" to your advantage is cheating in my opinion, and I'm sure Im not the only one. The ones who dont have a problem with this "strategy" are those that would feel comfortable using it themselves.

Really its not common, I've played 50+ freestyle doubles and have yet to see it.

That being said, The Two guys both apologized and I believe them when they say that it was an accident and they really seem like nice guys. So I am dropping this whole thing. =D Happy Gaming all!

Dunno if it’s a glitch or not. It’s been there since the dawn of Freestyle games. Just the way the game engine works. People find it troublesome for two reasons: (i) the game settings do not indicate that this move is possible, (ii) it is a move that can give an unduly big advantage.

Doesn’t matter if it’s common or not though. It’s public information, you have no reason to be upset really.

But that's just my two cents.

[carblue5757]

I respect your opinion. I just got heated because i did not know about this manuver, and I believe it was coupled with excelent dice roll, which made it look worse than it really was. Thanks for puting it in perspective for me.

[Micker]

I know this won't make up for what we did, but if its any consolation you two will probably still win the battle as nick can't make the rest of his moves. We both agreed to not use this tactic in any of our battles anymore anyway. Anyway, look at the game chat, we have explained everything there. Once again, sorry for that!

My God… Calm down. Seriously. Really. Calm down. You did nothing wrong.

Haha sorry, just wanted to make it clear we were sorry for what we did

[alex_white101]

play sequential. dont moan.

[detlef]

Must....let....it....go...but...I...can't.

Kudos to the guys for coming forward and admitting their mistake, no kudos, once again for the spineless twit who keeps defending this action and puts the onus on people doing exhaustive research into every seedy little advantage that less scrupulous players can use to their advantage.

Is there a rule against me shutting off the power to your house the second you start your move? It may cost you a turn. Honestly, could someone check the rules? From what I can tell, it seems "fair".

Once again, this is a hidden move. Yes, momo, it's hidden to all but people who have been victims of them or people who take this game way to seriously and comb the forum before entering any game style or map that they're unfamiliar with. I mean, heaven forbid someone should say, "I'm good at risk, let me give this a try." without being subject to BS like this.

Where do you draw the line? If someone discovered that if you click attack 3 times really quickly you're assured of getting 6s, would think that cool? Would that be, "Just one of those things that experienced players understood and newbs just had to deal with?"

And just like your stupid secret border that only really cool people in the know about it is a flaw. If it's intentional, it's there to make fragile people feel like the man because they're "in the know" and can claim some heightened sense of place.

[tahitiwahini]

Thank you for the eloquent post, detlef.

I fundamentally believe that any tactic that requires delaying the game to succeed is unsportsmanlike. It follows from this that those that employ those techniques or defend those techniques are behaving in an unsportsmanlike manner. Unsportsmanlike behavior is best dealt with here with negative feedback.

The freestyle play at this site doesn't prohibit this de facto double turn is sufficient reason for me not to play freestyle games on this site.

[Kahless]

I don't understand why the team that missed their turn couldn't make their move before their oppenents for that round.

[carblue5757]

Thanks detlef, Nice to hear someone take my side on this and I agree with everything you said. Oh, and how many "Glitches" are in the game? I would like to become aware of these so I am not so naive next time.

[alster]

Kudos to the guys for coming forward and admitting their mistake, no kudos, once again for the spineless twit who keeps defending this action and puts the onus on people doing exhaustive research into every seedy little advantage that less scrupulous players can use to their advantage.

Once again, this is a hidden move. Yes, momo, it's hidden to all but people who have been victims of them or people who take this game way to seriously and comb the forum before entering any game style or map that they're unfamiliar with. I mean, heaven forbid someone should say, "I'm good at risk, let me give this a try." without being subject to BS like this.

Where do you draw the line? If someone discovered that if you click attack 3 times really quickly you're assured of getting 6s, would think that cool? Would that be, "Just one of those things that experienced players understood and newbs just had to deal with?"

Well. I guess I’m the one you refer to as being the “spineless twit”. Jez…

The issue comes down to this: CC is a complex game. More complex than the board game of Risk. You have more settings, more maps etc. And that is what makes it great. You have a steeper and longer learning-curve. Risk and CC is not the same game.

People need to calm down and accept that loosing is part of the learning-curve. By loosing you learn new moves, new tactics, new tricks on new maps etc. Loosing is not the end of the world. Loosing is an opportunity to improve if handled correctly.

After a while, when you lost in every conceivable way, at least you know what you’re getting into. You know what you get when signing up for a freestyle, unlimited fortification team game, you know that people get added armies if missing a turn etc. etc. Then you play with open eyes being able to foresee what may happen in the coming rounds. To complain about not expecting the unexpected is just a waste of energy. Take the hit, learn from it and get back in the game. Why does people expect to have everything served on a silver tray?

With respect to the dice. No, it’s not a perfectly random dice. And yes, I believe that there may be a way to tweak it just a tad bit.

[alster]

Thanks detlef, Nice to hear someone take my side on this and I agree with everything you said. Oh, and how many "Glitches" are in the game? I would like to become aware of these so I am not so naive next time.

Two ways:

1. Read up on the forum discussions. Among the manifold of useless threads, there are quite a few very interesting discussions.

2. Play the game and learn from your mistakes and learn from your losses. Experience and patience is the two ways to success.

[alster]

I fundamentally believe that any tactic that requires delaying the game to succeed is unsportsmanlike. It follows from this that those that employ those techniques or defend those techniques are behaving in an unsportsmanlike manner. Unsportsmanlike behavior is best dealt with here with negative feedback.

The freestyle play at this site doesn't prohibit this de facto double turn is sufficient reason for me not to play freestyle games on this site.

That is partly the right attitude.

1. You acknowledge that your personal views are merely a subjective view. What you find to be unsportsmanlike is not an objective, general standard.

2. Absolutely. Don’t like freestyle if you don’t like the setting.

3. But. With respect to delaying the game. Dunno. You know very well when you enter a game that skipping a turn is perfectly alright. If you don’t like it, play RT games instead.

[detlef]

Kudos to the guys for coming forward and admitting their mistake, no kudos, once again for the spineless twit who keeps defending this action and puts the onus on people doing exhaustive research into every seedy little advantage that less scrupulous players can use to their advantage.

Once again, this is a hidden move. Yes, momo, it's hidden to all but people who have been victims of them or people who take this game way to seriously and comb the forum before entering any game style or map that they're unfamiliar with. I mean, heaven forbid someone should say, "I'm good at risk, let me give this a try." without being subject to BS like this.

Where do you draw the line? If someone discovered that if you click attack 3 times really quickly you're assured of getting 6s, would think that cool? Would that be, "Just one of those things that experienced players understood and newbs just had to deal with?"

Well. I guess I’m the one you refer to as being the “spineless twit”. Jez…

The issue comes down to this: CC is a complex game. More complex than the board game of Risk. You have more settings, more maps etc. And that is what makes it great. You have a steeper and longer learning-curve. Risk and CC is not the same game.

People need to calm down and accept that loosing is part of the learning-curve. By loosing you learn new moves, new tactics, new tricks on new maps etc. Loosing is not the end of the world. Loosing is an opportunity to improve if handled correctly.

After a while, when you lost in every conceivable way, at least you know what you’re getting into. You know what you get when signing up for a freestyle, unlimited fortification team game, you know that people get added armies if missing a turn etc. etc. Then you play with open eyes being able to foresee what may happen in the coming rounds. To complain about not expecting the unexpected is just a waste of energy. Take the hit, learn from it and get back in the game. Why does people expect to have everything served on a silver tray?

With respect to the dice. No, it’s not a perfectly random dice. And yes, I believe that there may be a way to tweak it just a tad bit.

Sorry, can't give you this one either. To be honest, I don't think losing (not exactly sure whatloosing is) is the end of the world and, like you said, is a fine chance to learn. In fact, I often get bored with a game once I stop losing often enough to keep it interesting. Thus far, I've learned a ton about the game of risk here. Most of it at the expense of winning a game. Of course, the next time, I was the guy getting the points. These things, however, were honorable tactics like lying in wait until you have the armies to contend rather than take a territory that you are bound to lose, not cashing in your cards until you need them, etc. Each and every "trick" that I deploy is one that nobody would argue is outside the rhelm of the spirit of the game and certainly not a "rule" that isn't apparent by reading the basic rules of the game.

This is where I can't, in any way, buy your feeble argument that loopholes like this are the same as any other learned advantage.

[detlef]

Sorry, one more thing. Since "proper play" is so hard to define, I suppose it would be cool to do the following:

Three player game on the classic map. One guy gets 3 of the countries in Aussie on the flop. The other two use that as an excuse to make an offical and announced alliance and spend the first few rounds only attacking him. Soon enough, he's pretty much toast and the other two get to play head to head. Officially nothing "illegal" happened since the alliance was announced.

Is this just something that one has to learn? Would your reply be to never join a 3 player game? Is that the catch-all excuse for poor sportsmanship to simply tell those who want to engage in fair battle to avoid all games where there's some chance that an a-hole can abuse the rules?

[tahitiwahini]

1. You acknowledge that your personal views are merely a subjective view. What you find to be unsportsmanlike is not an objective, general standard.

I fundamentally believe that any tactic that requires delaying the game to succeed is unsportsmanlike.

I don't know, it sounds like an objective, general standard to me.

2. Absolutely. Don’t like freestyle if you don’t like the setting.

Not sure exactly what you're getting at here. But if I had to guess it would be something like: "if you don't like how freestyle is implemented, then don't play freestyle." Well, I don't and I don't. I sort of tried to say that already, here's an edited version to make it clearer:

The freestyle play at this site doesn't prohibit this de facto double turn [and that] is sufficient reason for me not to play freestyle games on this site.

3. But. With respect to delaying the game. Dunno. You know very well when you enter a game that skipping a turn is perfectly alright. If you don’t like it, play RT games instead.

There's no lesser benefit or greater penalty to skipping a turn in a RT game than a non-RT game. At present the rules for RT games are exactly the same as the rules for non-RT games. Applying my objective, general standard of sportsmanship I'm compelled to consider that purposely skipping a turn is as wrong in a non-RT as it is in a RT game. However, since this standard of sportsmanship is not enforced by the game engine, I fail to see how playing a RT game offers me any more protection against a player purposely missing his turn than a non-RT game.

[alster]

Sorry, can't give you this one either. To be honest, I don't think losing (not exactly sure whatloosing is) is the end of the world and, like you said, is a fine chance to learn.

Don’t be anal and try to make a point about peoples’ spelling. As long as you understand it, just shut up focus on the issue.

In fact, I often get bored with a game once I stop losing often enough to keep it interesting. Thus far, I've learned a ton about the game of risk here. Most of it at the expense of winning a game. Of course, the next time, I was the guy getting the points. These things, however, were honorable tactics like lying in wait until you have the armies to contend rather than take a territory that you are bound to lose, not cashing in your cards until you need them, etc. Each and every "trick" that I deploy is one that nobody would argue is outside the rhelm of the spirit of the game and certainly not a "rule" that isn't apparent by reading the basic rules of the game.

This is where I can't, in any way, buy your feeble argument that loopholes like this are the same as any other learned advantage.

In practice we all have to play with the same game engine. If you have a subjective notion regarding the spirit of the game, it’s up to you. All I’m saying is that it’s useless to be upset when people don’t play in accordance to your ideas/notions. Get over it and don’t play them anymore or chose settings you like better. It’s the same for everyone.

Anyways, I think we’re starting to restate things that we’ve already said.