counter cheater alliance

[tahitiwahini]

Well-said, Akrasia.

[detlef]

Well, now I got all nostalgic here.

Let me tell you new guys here a beautiful little story. Back in the days when you still created games with 4 digit game numbers, there was this beautiful glitch in the game engine. Then, when playing team freestyle games, the game engine only registered individuals, not teams. So, if your teammate was the last one to make a move, you were eligible yourself to start the next round. That allowed a team to take 4 moves in a row.

I can tell you this much: Me, Cmeb and Eye84 skimmed off a shitload of points using that tactic. What we did was basically starting up dozens and dozens of freestyle doubles, waiting 23 hours, then going on msn and closing the games in round 1 and 2 using double moves. Unfortunately that glitch one day vanished into the air, leaving us with a few dozen of freestyle games on our hands… Still, all in all it was a beautiful experience.

Well aren't you cool. The other day I lied about my age and joined a boxing tourney for 5 year olds. I beat the crap out of all of them and feel very proud about the trophy in my hall.

[wacicha]

now understand beating up on 5 year olds is not cool

What alstergren did is something I have never and would never do BUT it was legal to do.

If you post enough about something and it is found reasonable then the rules will be changed. he did not lie about it, he played according to the loop holes --I mean rules. I do respect Alstergren he is a great player. but as i said I would not play his way

[detlef]

now understand beating up on 5 year olds is not cool

What alstergren did is something I have never and would never do BUT it was legal to do.

If you post enough about something and it is found reasonable then the rules will be changed. he did not lie about it, he played according to the loop holes --I mean rules. I do respect Alstergren he is a great player. but as i said I would not play his way

I guess my point is that, last I checked, this was a game and that ultimately we should play for the satisfaction of engaging others fairly and defeating them. Getting up in the middle of the night with your loser friends to ambush people because somebody didn't yet make a rule against what was ultimately decided to be unfair reveals you as somewhat pathetic.

Why does it cost thousands of dollars in legal fees and contracts that are as thick as telephone books to get anything done these days? Because there's always some a-hole trying to get over on people by staying a step ahead of the rules. At least in their case, they're actually gettting something more than some stupid rating on a game website out of it. I mean they may be crooks but at least they get a nice car or something out of the deal.

[wacicha]

when CC was first Started, and the players were new (understand i was 698 person to sign up. nobody knew where this site would go. I have been accused of cheating lying noobie bashing. but i always followed rules it is what they are there for yes it is a game but a game of rules we are unmistakably human so we look to win within rules.

i have never cheated i never have picked on the new person i go the other extreme and help the new person as much as possible.

oh and i do not lie. but it was all players ALL of us that has helped evolve this site to what it is now. so lets get back to the game lol i just opened 10 more i of course will be the red man

Congrats to all for making this site enjoyable for me

[Nameless One]

Would it be a good idea to make a master tread about people who abuse the rules like this, people who don't play fair like two stronger players taking out a weak player in a three player game or people who kill newbs just so they can't lose that much pts., and list the names to warn people about it?

[wacicha]

that is why i tell all new people do not join in a game unless it has 5 or 6 players unless you personally know the players

because no matter if there are only 3 playetrs you can assume it is you against 2

[alster]

The de facto double turn is clearly perfectly allowed according to the game rules.

That’s a fallacious argument. Just because it’s not in the rules does not mean that it is perfectly allowed. It's true that there is no rule against it but it is clearly against the notion of eliminating double turns.

Just because it’s not against the two rules that are posted does not mean that it is supported.

No - it's not a fallacious argument.

Yes - just because it’s not against the two rules that are posted it does mean that it is allowed.

"Supported" - well, that's a different issue. Depends on what you mean by the word "supported". Do most players dislike the move? - Yes, it's a move generally frowned upon. Is the move allowed? - Yes it is.

But that doesn’t change the nature of the issue as it stands today. Since the game engine allows for it, and since the move doesn’t violate the game rules it’s a perfectly allowed move. And it is, and will be used. When signing up for a freestyle game people are aware of this (or should be aware of this). Thus, by signing up, one acknowledges the “risk” that this move may be made. Issue closed.

[alster]

Whatever one believes about the legality of the de facto double turn it's pretty clear that it involves purposely delaying your turn. Deadbeating very definitely involves delaying your turn, to the point where you time out. Might I suggest that players who want to play a game where players take their turns as soon as they can out of some bizarre notion of courtesy, might want to look elsewhere for a suitable opponent. On the other hand, if you're looking for a time-waster look no further...

The move is perfectly legal/allowed. That is not an issue.

And please, indulge me - what are you insinuating you little bastard?

[alster]

yeah it defeats the spirit of the game.

There is no time limit for taking your moves in a normal risk board game either, so according to the logic of some people here, it would be perfectly ok if I took 12 hours to take my go thus pissing off all the other players so they stop playing leaving me the de-facto winner.

What a fun game that would be.

It's pretty sad that so many people feel compelled to cheat in a computer game and then justify it by saying 'it's not my fault if other people aren't sad enough to cheat too. (hint, if everyone cheated, the games would become unplayable and nobody would get any benefit)

The Internet CC game cannot be compared with a normal board game of Risk (especially since CC is not associated with Hasbro[TM] in anyway).

Again. It’s not “cheating” to do a de facto double turn. The game engine allows for it and Rule no. 1 and 2 doesn’t prohibit the move. Really people, the issue is moot. It’s a perfectly ok move to make. Whether or not such a move will be appreciated by your opponents and hailed as a strategic masterstroke is a completely different issue.

[alster]

What alstergren did is something I have never and would never do BUT it was legal to do.

If you post enough about something and it is found reasonable then the rules will be changed. he did not lie about it, he played according to the loop holes --I mean rules. I do respect Alstergren he is a great player. but as i said I would not play his way

Thank you wacicha. As always, I appreciate your straight-forwardness.

And with respect to the comments on that particular post: The game has evolved tremendously since it was initially launched.

Besides, when we were doing those moves, we didn’t even consider them as being unethical or loopholes. We had a lot of games going on at the same time, coordinating our games using msn online and just played according to the game engine in those early days. We didn’t get up in the middle of the night or anything, for 8-10 hours per day we were all online, taking moves as the games opened up. Me in a library writing, Cmeb and Eye at work playing CC during calm hours. Great times. Looking back though, seeing how the game engine changed over time, yes, we used a loophole in the game engine. But a loophole that has been closed.

Generally though, with respect to loopholes: I make my living as a lawyer, loopholes are my bread and butter. Bad karma perhaps, but well, I’m not bothered by that anymore. Maybe when I was young and enthusiastic. Now I’m old and just live a happy-go-lucky life without reflecting to much on the karma part…

[alster]

Would it be a good idea to make a master tread about people who abuse the rules like this, people who don't play fair like two stronger players taking out a weak player in a three player game or people who kill newbs just so they can't lose that much pts., and list the names to warn people about it?

Jez... It's not abusing the rules. What is wrong with you people? There are indeed only two rules. Abusing them constitutes cheating. However, playing the game engine may be taking advantages of the engine, but it has nothing to do with the rules. Two different matters.

And: As has been said in the thread already.
- Don’t play freestyle unless you understand the pros and cons of the settings.
- Look at peoples’ feedback, play with people you know etc.

However: Being a CC player is always a process. First you need to learn the game well, this will take a lot of games. Second, once you know the game, you’re always faced with new challenges. The game engine is amended from time to time, new settings and new maps are introduced. This is why people stay, the changes that are made now and then gives us all new challenges we have to adopt to, it keeps us on our feets.

[rluzinski]

While I'm relatively new around here, I've played thousands of hours of internet multiplayer games over the last decade, plus. One thing I've learned is that anyone willing to aggressively debate the differences between "cheating", glitching and exploiting loopholes is not someone I want to play with.

[alster]

While I'm relatively new around here, I've played thousands of hours of internet multiplayer games over the last decade, plus. One thing I've learned is that anyone willing to aggressively debate the differences between "cheating", glitching and exploiting loopholes is not someone I want to play with.

I’m not debating.

I’m just informing the people in this thread about the two simple rules of CC. Those are the rules, nothing more, nothing less.

Then the debates taking place in this forum have in the past - and I’m sure will in the future - resulted in lack making changes in the game engine (although not the two rules, they have been rock solid over time).

However, if you believe that you have personal, perfect set of moral/ethical rules on how to play CC - and that those are sacred - please feel free to play only with those who share your views and don’t mind the discussions in here.

[detlef]

yeah it defeats the spirit of the game.

There is no time limit for taking your moves in a normal risk board game either, so according to the logic of some people here, it would be perfectly ok if I took 12 hours to take my go thus pissing off all the other players so they stop playing leaving me the de-facto winner.

What a fun game that would be.

It's pretty sad that so many people feel compelled to cheat in a computer game and then justify it by saying 'it's not my fault if other people aren't sad enough to cheat too. (hint, if everyone cheated, the games would become unplayable and nobody would get any benefit)

The Internet CC game cannot be compared with a normal board game of Risk (especially since CC is not associated with Hasbro[TM] in anyway).

Again. It’s not “cheating” to do a de facto double turn. The game engine allows for it and Rule no. 1 and 2 doesn’t prohibit the move. Really people, the issue is moot. It’s a perfectly ok move to make. Whether or not such a move will be appreciated by your opponents and hailed as a strategic masterstroke is a completely different issue.

OK. Nobody is saying that it is against the rules. We are simply saying that it is a completely BS way of playing. The correlation to the board game is an excellent example and trying to say they don't compare just shows what a baseless stance you are arguing from.

Once again, this is a game. For most of us, building up our rating is secondary to the enjoyment of beating other players fairly in a game. For you, apparently, a rating is so coveted that you and your loser friends get up in the middle of the night to screw people over, excuse me to take advantage of a loophole that they're welcome to take if they, like you, were also losers. That's great. Congrats.

[alster]

OK. Nobody is saying that it is against the rules. We are simply saying that it is a completely BS way of playing. The correlation to the board game is an excellent example and trying to say they don't compare just shows what a baseless stance you are arguing from.

Once again, this is a game. For most of us, building up our rating is secondary to the enjoyment of beating other players fairly in a game. For you, apparently, a rating is so coveted that you and your loser friends get up in the middle of the night to screw people over, excuse me to take advantage of a loophole that they're welcome to take if they, like you, were also losers. That's great. Congrats.

So what exactly is the baseless stance I’m arguing from? All I’m saying is that the de facto double turn move is within the rules and that people will resort to it from time to time. (Why? Because it can be done. And it’s a move that can grant a pretty cool advantage in a game.)

I’m amazed over the fact that this happens over and over again. I’ve always taken a firm position on the de facto double turn issue. Personally I believe it’s not a good move to make, and I rarely make it. I rarely play freestyle games anyway - but if I do and someone uses the move against me, I retaliate by using it myself. I'm not above retaliation, and never said I was.

I’m not getting up in the middle of the night together with my friends to screw people over (although, people playing freestyle games deserves to be screwed over, that is what freestyle games is all about in my opinion). Where do you get this idea from? I suggest you actually read the posts before lashing out like that.

[detlef]

OK. Nobody is saying that it is against the rules. We are simply saying that it is a completely BS way of playing. The correlation to the board game is an excellent example and trying to say they don't compare just shows what a baseless stance you are arguing from.

Once again, this is a game. For most of us, building up our rating is secondary to the enjoyment of beating other players fairly in a game. For you, apparently, a rating is so coveted that you and your loser friends get up in the middle of the night to screw people over, excuse me to take advantage of a loophole that they're welcome to take if they, like you, were also losers. That's great. Congrats.

So what exactly is the baseless stance I’m arguing from? All I’m saying is that the de facto double turn move is within the rules and that people will resort to it from time to time. (Why? Because it can be done. And it’s a move that can grant a pretty cool advantage in a game.)

I’m amazed over the fact that this happens over and over again. I’ve always taken a firm position on the de facto double turn issue. Personally I believe it’s not a good move to make, and I rarely make it. I rarely play freestyle games anyway - but if I do and someone uses the move against me, I retaliate by using it myself. I'm not above retaliation, and never said I was.

I’m not getting up in the middle of the night together with my friends to screw people over (although, people playing freestyle games deserves to be screwed over, that is what freestyle games is all about in my opinion). Where do you get this idea from? I suggest you actually read the posts before lashing out like that.

OK, I made up the middle of the night part, but I got this little tidbit from you:

I can tell you this much: Me, Cmeb and Eye84 skimmed off a shitload of points using that tactic. What we did was basically starting up dozens and dozens of freestyle doubles, waiting 23 hours, then going on msn and closing the games in round 1 and 2 using double moves. Unfortunately that glitch one day vanished into the air, leaving us with a few dozen of freestyle games on our hands… Still, all in all it was a beautiful experience. Very Happy

The point that was made about the board game is as follows. There is no time limit on making moves in the board game. Thus, as was pointed out, you could just not make a move when it's your turn and then declare yourself the winner after everyone gets tired of waiting and quits.

If you and some friends get together for two-hand-touch football, there's no actual definition for what "touch" means. Thus, you could slam a guy as hard as you can in the head with your two hands, knock him out and quite possibly win the game because they'd be a guy short. Totally legal, very uncool. By your logic, they should simply retaliate. Next thing you know, rather than playing football, you're beating each other senseless. Not as much fun as tossing the old pigskin around, is it?

[alster]

OK, I made up the middle of the night part, but I got this little tidbit from you:

I can tell you this much: Me, Cmeb and Eye84 skimmed off a shitload of points using that tactic. What we did was basically starting up dozens and dozens of freestyle doubles, waiting 23 hours, then going on msn and closing the games in round 1 and 2 using double moves. Unfortunately that glitch one day vanished into the air, leaving us with a few dozen of freestyle games on our hands… Still, all in all it was a beautiful experience. Very Happy

The point that was made about the board game is as follows. There is no time limit on making moves in the board game. Thus, as was pointed out, you could just not make a move when it's your turn and then declare yourself the winner after everyone gets tired of waiting and quits.

If you and some friends get together for two-hand-touch football, there's no actual definition for what "touch" means. Thus, you could slam a guy as hard as you can in the head with your two hands, knock him out and quite possibly win the game because they'd be a guy short. Totally legal, very uncool. By your logic, they should simply retaliate. Next thing you know, rather than playing football, you're beating each other senseless. Not as much fun as tossing the old pigskin around, is it?

The problem with the board game / CC freestyle analogy is this: Freestyle games are a tactical business. Since you can take your moves anytime in the round, you may wish to consider whether to go first or last in the round. If you want to go last, you hold out a bit, hoping that the rest of the players take their moves. It’s part of the game, and nothing strange. Frowning upon that, saying that a player should take his freestyle game turns as soon as he logs in, well… that’s a very arcane point of view. In that case, one should play sequential and not freestyle. Freestyle is a mouse and cat game, it takes a lot of computer presence time to fully play out a freestyle game.

The de facto turn: Well, is it a loophole or not? I’m not so sure. Perhaps it can fairly be described as that, but it can also be described as part of the Freestyle game toolbox of strategies. Personally, I’m not a fan of it, but I won’t really condemn right out it either.

However, I’m not claiming to sit on a very high horse here. If I play freestyle – which I rarely do these days – I may not be the guy doing a de facto turn first. But, if someone does it against me, why should I not retaliate? CC is not touch football. It’s an online game. Why should I reframe from doing a de facto double turn if others in the game are doing it? That doesn’t make sense to me.

And please, read the posts I made about the double moves. It was a nostalgic post. That was the way the game engine worked back in the old days. What we did was perfectly within the scope of the two rules and we didn’t think twice about it since the whole CC site was much cruder back then than it is now. And we weren’t the only ones. After a while it became a more and more common way to do your moves in the team games. We saw nothing wrong with it; it was the way the team freestyle games were played back then. If you weren’t there, it’s hard to pass a judgment over it.

Do I mourn the changes in the game engine taking away that possibility? No, not really. Personally I think it was a good change, making the freestyle games more predictable and fairer. It was a funny game engine amendment though. It just kicked in one day, no announcements, no nothing. I got the impression it was something lack hastily amended after being tipped off about it.

[detlef]

OK, I made up the middle of the night part, but I got this little tidbit from you:

I can tell you this much: Me, Cmeb and Eye84 skimmed off a shitload of points using that tactic. What we did was basically starting up dozens and dozens of freestyle doubles, waiting 23 hours, then going on msn and closing the games in round 1 and 2 using double moves. Unfortunately that glitch one day vanished into the air, leaving us with a few dozen of freestyle games on our hands… Still, all in all it was a beautiful experience. Very Happy

The point that was made about the board game is as follows. There is no time limit on making moves in the board game. Thus, as was pointed out, you could just not make a move when it's your turn and then declare yourself the winner after everyone gets tired of waiting and quits.

If you and some friends get together for two-hand-touch football, there's no actual definition for what "touch" means. Thus, you could slam a guy as hard as you can in the head with your two hands, knock him out and quite possibly win the game because they'd be a guy short. Totally legal, very uncool. By your logic, they should simply retaliate. Next thing you know, rather than playing football, you're beating each other senseless. Not as much fun as tossing the old pigskin around, is it?

The problem with the board game / CC freestyle analogy is this: Freestyle games are a tactical business. Since you can take your moves anytime in the round, you may wish to consider whether to go first or last in the round. If you want to go last, you hold out a bit, hoping that the rest of the players take their moves. It’s part of the game, and nothing strange. Frowning upon that, saying that a player should take his freestyle game turns as soon as he logs in, well… that’s a very arcane point of view. In that case, one should play sequential and not freestyle. Freestyle is a mouse and cat game, it takes a lot of computer presence time to fully play out a freestyle game.

The de facto turn: Well, is it a loophole or not? I’m not so sure. Perhaps it can fairly be described as that, but it can also be described as part of the Freestyle game toolbox of strategies. Personally, I’m not a fan of it, but I won’t really condemn right out it either.

However, I’m not claiming to sit on a very high horse here. If I play freestyle – which I rarely do these days – I may not be the guy doing a de facto turn first. But, if someone does it against me, why should I not retaliate? CC is not touch football. It’s an online game. Why should I reframe from doing a de facto double turn if others in the game are doing it? That doesn’t make sense to me.

And please, read the posts I made about the double moves. It was a nostalgic post. That was the way the game engine worked back in the old days. What we did was perfectly within the scope of the two rules and we didn’t think twice about it since the whole CC site was much cruder back then than it is now. And we weren’t the only ones. After a while it became a more and more common way to do your moves in the team games. We saw nothing wrong with it; it was the way the team freestyle games were played back then. If you weren’t there, it’s hard to pass a judgment over it.

Do I mourn the changes in the game engine taking away that possibility? No, not really. Personally I think it was a good change, making the freestyle games more predictable and fairer. It was a funny game engine amendment though. It just kicked in one day, no announcements, no nothing. I got the impression it was something lack hastily amended after being tipped off about it.

This is not a question of whether you should be tactical about when you make your moves in freestyle, rather about exploiting the rules to give yourself an unsavory advantage. The OP was talking about someone not ending their turn and thus getting around the rules regarding back to back moves. You were waxing nostalgic about when it was even easier to do that.

That is a far cry from simply letting the board do its thing before making your play which is somewhat akin to holding off on cashing your cards in (even in flat rate) in hopes that everyone wastes their bonuses on each other. Unlike getting around the rules, this is simply using strategy.

You've simply exposed yourself as someone who values winning over fair play. That's fine, but you need to own that.

Oh, that and you've established that this is neither touch football or a board game. Thanks for clearing that up.

[alster]

This is not a question of whether you should be tactical about when you make your moves in freestyle, rather about exploiting the rules to give yourself an unsavory advantage. The OP was talking about someone not ending their turn and thus getting around the rules regarding back to back moves. You were waxing nostalgic about when it was even easier to do that.

That is a far cry from simply letting the board do its thing before making your play which is somewhat akin to holding off on cashing your cards in (even in flat rate) in hopes that everyone wastes their bonuses on each other. Unlike getting around the rules, this is simply using strategy.

You've simply exposed yourself as someone who values winning over fair play. That's fine, but you need to own that.

Oh, that and you've established that this is neither touch football or a board game. Thanks for clearing that up.

Again. It’s not really about the rules. There are only two rules. What you do here is circumventing the game engine settings a tad bit. These are two different things. However, it isn’t a massive violation, all players still have one move per round. And people know (or should know) about it when entering a freestyle game.

However, the de facto double turn has been in the books since the beginning. Despite criticism, the game engine still allows for it. So, is it really a loophole then or is the game’s creator happy with the game engine allowing for this? Well, you tell me.

I was nostalgic about the old days when the game engine was cruder. But again, that was the way freestyle team games were played back then. I agree with you that the de facto double turn isn’t really fair play. And that is the reason for why I don’t play freestyle much anymore. I prefer sequential since I find those games to be fairer. But again, freestyle is freestyle. If you are that upset with the way freestyle games work, play sequential (or play freestyle with a bunch of people that before hand agrees not to use the de facto double turn move).

Also. If you want me to clarify any more issues or analogies, don’t be shy to ask.

[rluzinski]

The point you seem to be missing is that for many, whether something is technically against the rules and punishable is largely irrelevant. It's the whole notion of fair play and sportsmanship that's being debated here (at least after it was made clear that the "double turn" in question is allowed). The fact that you wax nostalgic about using tricks to pump up your ranking at the expense of others perfectly illustrates the kind of actions some find unpalatable. Some ere on the side of caution in those situations; others constantly push the boundaries, looking for an advantage. I value fair play above all (certainly, above my ranking) and hope to play against and with similar minded individuals. It's clear that I'm not alone.

[wacicha]

It is human nature to push the limits it is how we grow and continue to grow.

that is why we create rules without them we would have no fair play.

If we play within those rules we are playing fairly, our opinion of what is fairplay needs to be done by the rules!!!

[rluzinski]

I'm simply telling you that some people consider "fairplay" isn't strictly defined by what the rules allow (or don't specifically disallow). For instance, it's obvious that the coders wanted to keep players from being able to make two turns in a row. Even though it's apparently possible to still do it in specific circumstances and the coders haven't expressly forbid it, I would not use the technique because:

1. It seems to go against fairplay.

2. Many players don't even realize it's possible and should assume it isn't anyway.

Obviously, defining what's fair play or not is a subjective matter and no one is required to follow fair play. If you want to use these tactics to your advantage, that's your prerogative and apparently not against the rules. Just don't tell me that there aren't people that would rather ere on the side of caution and not do something that might be construed as unfair. I'd rather risk a couple rank points than "push the limits."

[wacicha]

As i have stated Earier I do not play this way never will!!!

But it is legal- the reason I do not play this way is I work with the new people to help them against all you predators.

[alster]

As i have stated Earier I do not play this way never will!!!

But it is legal- the reason I do not play this way is I work with the new people to help them against all you predators.

We are all predators in here. No one is innocent.