Why do the dice suck so bad?

[BIGMEANIE]

since installing the dice analyzer i am going 0-2 on 3v2 rolls 40% of the time. check out my log in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=132003

i'm sure it will be brushed aside immediately by the devout dice defenders but at least it is some sort of evidence that truly terrible dice are not just some sort of figment of the imagination....i'm tired of hearing "we only remember the bad dice".

its true that sample isn't THAT big--unless of course you are a freemie who can only make a handful of rolls in one day-- but then again, this streak COULD go on like this for years...its not probable, but its possible....and if if it did, then what? too bad?

[docchaos]

Don't get me wrong, wehn i had an exceptionally bad roll, i do complain about the dice in the game chat myself. But I never would've though of starting a forum topic about this nonesense.

The dice are random. Period.
Sometimes you get good rolls, sometimes you get bad rolls. But it all evens out over time. Everything else is just false perception. This is way too large to explain in all of its complexity, but I'll give you an example:
10vs2 is not too uncommon, I guess anyone plays this quite often. There's a 99% chance of success. While that doesn't mean that exactly 1 out of 100 will fail, in average it should be close to that number. How many of that 99 successful tries did you memorize? Probably just a few but you definitely didn't forget about that 1 fail. So 1 fail against a few successes and it's blown way out of proportion.
And that's just one of the mechanisms how your mind is deceiving you to think your luck has been worse than it really has been.

And there is no statistically significant amount of long streaks either.

Anyone who doubts this, please bring evidence (dice analyzer and dice streaks are two GM-scripts that help you gather this evidence, but be warned: if you believe you're treated wrong, you might not like the results) or keep your mouth shut.

PS: Since BIGMEANIE posted while I was typing: Calling a sample of just over 200 rolls "not that big" must be the understatement of the century. Think about how many dice are rolled per hour on here and you'll get why.

[BIGMEANIE]

but i'm talking about MY dice and what is happening to ME.

if i leave my house tomorrow there is a chance i will be hit by lightning. the fact that other people will be leaving their houses does not increase MY chance of being hit, right?

[impromptublue]

The thing is, I'm not just selectively remembering my losses. I'm not here to gripe. I remember just as many winning streaks as losing streaks. Overall, the dice are "fair" in that they do not favor individual people. But they aren't random, as random is commonly understood: each roll is not independent of the others. With random dice, the chances of winning or losing any roll should be independent from the roll before, but that is not what's happening: what's happening is that winning is more likely after you've won the previous roll, and vice versa with losing.

I'm no computer programmer, so I have no idea how to gather significant data regarding how common streaks are. It is definitely possible that I am overremembering streaks in general because they are more interesting than non-streaks. Anyone who does know how to collect this data, please do, and share. Or if anyone has the code for the site's randomizer-- that might explain what's going on (or not-- perhaps they'll show that the dice are in the fact random and we're all suffering from selective memory).

[Mad777]

So many complains or kind of explanations about those "DICES".
First of all why starting playing in this Club?
I guess because one day you discover this famous board game and started to spend night and nights with friends,beers,music in your living rooms or your garage playing either the world conquest or one of the missions proposed. Did I'm right?
If that's the case, how many time you get kicked after 1 hour because your dices suck? Was realy the dices or was mostly a wrong strategy?
I'm 36 years old and I started to play with this board game when it came out, what I realized after dozens of games, was you get too much concentrated of what your opponent mission was or tried to guess which continent he was trying to have or what was his target to kill and in the mean time you forgott to set'up or built up your army or preparing your place!
After minutes you realized you had nothing good and tried to direct the fault somewhere else than your strategy, for instance you have three rolls with bad dices in a particular instant of the game and did not had any card, you pass your turn and your opponent take that chance to kill you because, first you was too light in certain places and second your opponent was more concentrated on their mission, building a strategy and tried to avoid as much as they can to be discovered.
This situation remember you something? If yes did you get pissed like you are in those threads/post? Or did you take that as a simple game fact (like card playing), may be happened more often some days than other, when that happened, you never go to the fridge open another beer and watch the remained players having the same bad dices against each other and you started laughing
Now you have to work with electronic using the same rules and you realy think there is a difference? Of course not! You get so frustrated you tried again to find a different way to accept loosing because unlucky, bad strategy, you don't know the map, bad dices, and more, and more...
7 days ago I had 1747 point, 1 week later with only few games I lost 200 points...and I guess what? That's only a game, I joined CC because this open me a door to re-discover this game. I spend $25 per year for the secong time to have the privilege to play many games I want by taking the easiest way to find hundreds of players with dozens of differents maps (In reality its more hard to find players every days, no?), tooks me more than 200 games to start having my points climbing because my strategy was suck or because I played against opponents knew the map better than me, or may be I had some unlucky shots? then I had up and down results.
Why don't simply accept what happen and let enjoying the fact you can play with people living to the other side of the earth, no matter what is the rank at the end! There is no prize money, its just a fun moment you have with other humans! Discovering a new map and then you realize the map is your country, this not sound exiting?
There is nothing to say more than: DON'T WORRY, THE EARTH WILL NOT STOP TURNING BECAUSE YOUR DICES SUCKS! OR BECAUSE YOUR SCORE GOES DOWN,ENJOY YOUR DAY BECAUSE YOU ARE IN GOOD HEALTH AND YOU ARE ONE OF THE GUY HAVING A COMPUTER WITH INTERNET AND FRIENDS ALLOWING YOU TO PLAY WITH CC.
If you don't like it that's okay, leave this site few weeks and come back when you will accept the fact than your life will not becomes critical because you lost 10 games in row.

Note: Sorry for my english as my native language is french

[BIGMEANIE]

i skipped about 98% of your post but the 2% i did read made me happy, so merci beaucoup.

[Mad777]

i skipped about 98% of your post but the 2% i did read made me happy, so merci beaucoup.

Why 98%? My english is so bad?

[BIGMEANIE]

no its not bad. i understand what you are saying. i just find something almost endearing about the way non-native speakers write. the choice of words, the grammar, the flow. it is fun to read.

congratulations to you for being able to speak more than one language. i wish i could!

[Mad777]

no its not bad. i understand what you are saying. i just find something almost endearing about the way non-native speakers write. the choice of words, the grammar, the flow. it is fun to read.

congratulations to you for being able to speak more than one language. i wish i could!

thanks

[Woodruff]

The problem with the dice is that they are not random.
Now, I recognize that they are not random in a fair (between players) way. I have no conspiracy theories here; I get about an equal number of winning streaks and losing streaks. But the thing is, in a truly random system, these streaks wouldn't be happening except in very rare cases.

You don't play much roulette, do you? These sorts of streaks are PRECISELY why casinos put those big boards up that show you the last twenty spins...so that you, in your human perception, will try to gauge what the next spin will be based on them (for spinning against black/red). It's a setup by the casino to work on you in exactly that way by using exactly those streaks that you claim are very rare. And believe me, we have far more dice rolls in a given day here than there are spins of the roulette wheel in a year at the casino.

[Arama86n]

long story short people, it's not the dice, it's your expectations, and at times your arrogance, thinking you "should" win this or that. There is no such thing as a perfect plan, not in IRL, not in CC.
If you want an atmosphere where you can control everything, play Chess. Real life or CC will just disappoint you, again and again.
The "problem" is an illusion created by yourself, it is the sum of your expectations and desires.

P.S. play RISK some time, try using real dice. You might be unpleasantly surprised and find that these perfect fantasy dice you imagined don't exist
Hell, go to a Casino and play just watch games played with dice.

tldr version;

dice = no problem
dice + expectations = problem
dice + expectations + desires + arrogance = big problem

[Hatchman]

long story short people, it's not the dice, it's your expectations, and at times your arrogance, thinking you "should" win this or that. There is no such thing as a perfect plan, not in IRL, not in CC.
If you want an atmosphere where you can control everything, play Chess. Real life or CC will just disappoint you, again and again.
The "problem" is an illusion created by yourself, it is the sum of your expectations and desires.

P.S. play RISK some time, try using real dice. You might be unpleasantly surprised and find that these perfect fantasy dice you imagined don't exist
Hell, go to a Casino and play just watch games played with dice.

tldr version;

dice = no problem
dice + expectations = problem
dice + expectations + desires + arrogance = big problem

Very reasonable and well said Arama

[BIGMEANIE]

i am not sure where the arrogance bit is coming from. if one says they "should" win i am sure they still realize that they might not. they are only saying that according to the odds it is very likely they will. consequently, i think that in these cases the word "should" is used a bit loosely. i'm sure they understand that there is no master plan their dice "should" be following. moreover, i can see how one can be arrogant when it comes to their perception of their own skill/strategy--but not their dice, over which they have no control. for example, something about this just doesn't seem right: "He's so arrogant--he thinks he can roll great dice all the time." "He's so arrogant, he thinks his strategy is perfect", on the other hand, makes much more sense, i think, because unlike in the first case, one actually has control over their strategy. unreasonable dice-expectations are one thing, but arrogance seems to be something else. is dice-arrogance even possible?

perhaps i'm going off on a limb and/or or missing a point entirely.

[Master Chief]

i am not sure where the arrogance bit is coming from. if one says they "should" win i am sure they still realize that they might not. they are only saying that according to the odds it is very likely they will. consequently, i think that in these cases the word "should" is used a bit loosely. i'm sure they understand that there is no master plan their dice "should" be following. moreover, i can see how one can be arrogant when it comes to their perception of their own skill/strategy--but not their dice, over which they have no control. for example, something about this just doesn't seem right: "He's so arrogant--he thinks he can roll great dice all the time." "He's so arrogant, he thinks his strategy is perfect", on the other hand, makes much more sense, i think, because unlike in the first case, one actually has control over their strategy. unreasonable dice-expectations are one thing, but arrogance seems to be something else. is dice-arrogance even possible?

perhaps i'm going off on a limb and/or or missing a point entirely.

Very reasonable and well said BIG.

[Hatchman]

i am not sure where the arrogance bit is coming from. if one says they "should" win i am sure they still realize that they might not. they are only saying that according to the odds it is very likely they will. consequently, i think that in these cases the word "should" is used a bit loosely. i'm sure they understand that there is no master plan their dice "should" be following. moreover, i can see how one can be arrogant when it comes to their perception of their own skill/strategy--but not their dice, over which they have no control. for example, something about this just doesn't seem right: "He's so arrogant--he thinks he can roll great dice all the time." "He's so arrogant, he thinks his strategy is perfect", on the other hand, makes much more sense, i think, because unlike in the first case, one actually has control over their strategy. unreasonable dice-expectations are one thing, but arrogance seems to be something else. is dice-arrogance even possible?

perhaps i'm going off on a limb and/or or missing a point entirely.

Very reasonable and nicely put Meanie.

I like the avvy too, and I should invite you to a game too. You kick ass.

BTW, I'm sure he means "dice over-confidence" rather than "dice arrogance".

[BIGMEANIE]

BTW, I'm sure he means "dice over-confidence" rather than "dice arrogance".

i figured--i just felt compelled to address the use of the word "arrogance". i have been doing my fair share of dice-moaning as of late; however, this moaning is in no way fueled by arrogance. i am not a fan of arrogance, and i find this game can be very humbling indeed lol.

hatch, i will accept an invite anytime. that goes for Ara and MC as well, who i would also prefer to fight with as opposed to against!

[Arama86n]

You'll have to excuse me mate, but I'll refrain from further explanations of my train of though regarding expectations, arrogance, and dice whining I don't have the energy for a long meaningless discussion this evening, haha.

And right back at you, my game load is pretty full right now and I'm trying to prioritise games with clan members, but in general, I'm more than happy to play with you (or against you if you so wish)
See you on the field of battle soon.

[Master Chief]

BTW, I'm sure he means "dice over-confidence" rather than "dice arrogance".

i figured--i just felt compelled to address the use of the word "arrogance". i have been doing my fair share of dice-moaning as of late; however, this moaning is in no way fueled by arrogance. i am not a fan of arrogance, and i find this game can be very humbling indeed lol.

hatch, i will accept an invite anytime. that goes for Ara and MC as well, who i would also prefer to fight with as opposed to against!

I can vouch for the dice moaning!!!

What about inviting me to a few quads games with me, you, hatch, and ara? I doubt even the worst dice could hurt us if we team up!

[Cognac]

Sorry...the dice suck balls. It has nothing to do with expectations...I'm just on here for fun, not to achieve a certain score or prove anything.

I've had DOUBLE DIGIT 0 for 6s, 0 for 8s in the last couple weeks. Statisically, that is highly unlikely to happen. I don't play a ton of games...maybe 15-20 at a time. So to have that many 0-fers is frustrating. It was NEVER like this for me up until a couple months ago. Sure, I'd see a few of these turn up occasionally...which is expected. But the frequency they happen to me (and others that I talk to) now is disturbing. I'm close to quitting the site because strategy is gone entirely in favor of who has the "good" streaky dice. The fun is gone.

When noobs or idiots are complaining...its one thing. However, I'm seeing plenty of GOOD players and strong contributors to the site voicing concerns. The dice IMO are indeed an issue.

[Hatchman]

Sorry...the dice suck balls. It has nothing to do with expectations...I'm just on here for fun, not to achieve a certain score or prove anything.

I've had DOUBLE DIGIT 0 for 6s, 0 for 8s in the last couple weeks. Statisically, that is highly unlikely to happen. I don't play a ton of games...maybe 15-20 at a time. So to have that many 0-fers is frustrating. It was NEVER like this for me up until a couple months ago. Sure, I'd see a few of these turn up occasionally...which is expected. But the frequency they happen to me (and others that I talk to) now is disturbing. I'm close to quitting the site because strategy is gone entirely in favor of who has the "good" streaky dice. The fun is gone.

When noobs or idiots are complaining...its one thing. However, I'm seeing plenty of GOOD players and strong contributors to the site voicing concerns. The dice IMO are indeed an issue.

[jefjef]

Sorry...the dice suck balls. It has nothing to do with expectations...I'm just on here for fun, not to achieve a certain score or prove anything.

You would think CC would want PAYING customers happy and provide us with unmanipulated random. You would think they would want us telling the world how good and fun and honest CC is. How CC is a great investment.

They don't even keep this site from being over run by freemi multis.

Hey CC. Stop giving away the points I pay for. I want to have fun too instead of always watching my opponents giggle and think that they are strategic gods.

I want the random you almost always give my opponents. I checked my 31 active games a couple days back. My teams had 1st move in 8 of them. My teams dice also mirror that same randomness...

I have even gifted premium and put extra money in your pockets. I'm thinking you stop fixing the games and make it an enjoyable experience for those of us that finance it.

This isn't random. It borders on fraud and false advertising.

Let me have fun and enjoy some of my games. I used to be able to. We the customer really don't want to bitch but thats all your version of random deserves from many of us.

How many consecutive sixes can a 12th tert defended by a 1 randomly roll? I saw 6 of them this morning...

[musicalmaven]

ok - my favorite topic - lousy dice.

first let me say - yes the dice do suck.

second - yes much of what the dice defenders say is correct. they are random and human perception is skewed, and we assign a pattern to arbitrary situations ("my i-pod seems to play so-and-so more than anyone else in my playlist").

i am not trying to play both sides of the issue. i am saying if you want to make a statement that the dice suck then throwing out a few examples of horrid dice rolls is not enough. over a short period anything is possible, and often those 8, 10, 12 vs. 1, 2, 3 or more loses are evened out over time by the numerous "easy wins" of beating 3 men and losing only 1 (that's a winning percentage of 75%). and those who defend the dice are counting on those "smaller" wins to balance off the horrid throws - and let's face it, we certainly remember those horrid throws.

if you want to make a statement about the lousy dice you must be able to back it up with hard facts

i am reaching the end of my 3rd year as a member of c.c. for my first year i complained bitterly about my lousy dice - mostly to my wife (who, of course turned a deaf ear to it).
then i did some web research and found a couple of sites which gave the statistics i needed.
both sites gave similar odds - against 2 defenders the attacker should win 53.9% of the time and against a single defender the attacker should win 65.9% of the time.

armed with this information i had something solid to measure against my dice results.
i have been keeping fairly accurate records of all my attacks for almost 2 full years. when i started we were using the familiar risk board map. the hasbro forced us into the shape maps, followed by the current "classic" map. with each change i re-started my count. i even re-started my count when we went to the "intensive cubes" a few months ago.

yes, that means many, many, many sheets of paper of 4 sticks and a slash, divided between attacks against 2 defenders and 1 defender. and while a hand full of those sheets show some very positive results, the vast majority show results very far below the averages i mentioned two paragraphs ago. also, for the entire time frame that i have been keeping track of my results - i have never gotten my total count above the average!

it seems to me that after almost two years i should have been able to get my results above the average a couple of times.

it may be that the dice are random, but they may not be as random as the defenders believe.

my ranking has been quite a roller coaster ride for my years in c.c. and my results since the intensive cubes began have been better than previous time periods, and if i hold on a few more months, maybe i will finally get my totals above the average......maybe.

[Rozebud]

ok - my favorite topic - lousy dice.

first let me say - yes the dice do suck.

second - yes much of what the dice defenders say is correct. they are random and human perception is skewed, and we assign a pattern to arbitrary situations ("my i-pod seems to play so-and-so more than anyone else in my playlist").

i am not trying to play both sides of the issue. i am saying if you want to make a statement that the dice suck then throwing out a few examples of horrid dice rolls is not enough. over a short period anything is possible, and often those 8, 10, 12 vs. 1, 2, 3 or more loses are evened out over time by the numerous "easy wins" of beating 3 men and losing only 1 (that's a winning percentage of 75%). and those who defend the dice are counting on those "smaller" wins to balance off the horrid throws - and let's face it, we certainly remember those horrid throws.

if you want to make a statement about the lousy dice you must be able to back it up with hard facts

i am reaching the end of my 3rd year as a member of c.c. for my first year i complained bitterly about my lousy dice - mostly to my wife (who, of course turned a deaf ear to it).
then i did some web research and found a couple of sites which gave the statistics i needed.
both sites gave similar odds - against 2 defenders the attacker should win 53.9% of the time and against a single defender the attacker should win 65.9% of the time.

armed with this information i had something solid to measure against my dice results.
i have been keeping fairly accurate records of all my attacks for almost 2 full years. when i started we were using the familiar risk board map. the hasbro forced us into the shape maps, followed by the current "classic" map. with each change i re-started my count. i even re-started my count when we went to the "intensive cubes" a few months ago.

yes, that means many, many, many sheets of paper of 4 sticks and a slash, divided between attacks against 2 defenders and 1 defender. and while a hand full of those sheets show some very positive results, the vast majority show results very far below the averages i mentioned two paragraphs ago. also, for the entire time frame that i have been keeping track of my results - i have never gotten my total count above the average!

it seems to me that after almost two years i should have been able to get my results above the average a couple of times.

it may be that the dice are random, but they may not be as random as the defenders believe.

my ranking has been quite a roller coaster ride for my years in c.c. and my results since the intensive cubes began have been better than previous time periods, and if i hold on a few more months, maybe i will finally get my totals above the average......maybe.

I LOVE the dice

[TheForgivenOne]

How about we make it, so that every time you throw 3 dice twice, a 1 2 3 4 5 6 show up exactly once.

[king achilles]

Just in case for those who do not know yet, the attacker only wins when he has greater value of the dice. When you get a draw, the attacker loses on that. The defense wins if they get an equal or higher dice value.