ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Phatscotty]

no Ballin, don't you see. If you just forget about where the money must come from, then everything will be okay.

And when it blows up in their face, they point the finger at you ya know.

[PLAYER57832]

But such a move towards expanding welfare similar to Norway's comes at a huge, unseen cost. The US will definitely lose business with higher taxes in order to raise more revenue to support such an ambitious and expensive program like the so-called Obamacare.

I am not referring to the welfare system, just to the medical systems and, in my case, not Norway's example (because I don't know much about it, for one thing). I like France's system or Germany's.
Providing universal coverage and a single payor type system, even just setting up one basic form and coding system for insurance would save money in the long run. Right now, a LOT of money is spent on dealing with uninsured people (working citizens, not illegal aliens). Most of those people paid into the insurance company system for years and then were dropped, just when their bills got high. So, the insurance companies get to take the profits and give back little, leaving huge costs for we taxpayers to cover. That is a big reason why universal coverage is a better idea.

In my humble opinion, regarding healthcare the US wasn't in enough of a "crisis" to justify such a huge expansion in state welfare. It's unnecessary, and not at all the best of available options.

Here's the real equation:
universal healthcare means healthier people who are more productive and, in the long run (not immediately, but down the road), cost less overall.

pay for preschool and better education means fewer prisons. Better preschools in particular mean greater success in school, IF the preschool is a good one.

Etc.

The problem is that these so-called "solutions" to cut spending really are the greatest increase in future debt ever.

I agree that there are some benefits in "socialized medicine," but the right regulations and limitations are never properly put in place to maximize its efficiency, which ultimately is much more limited with state control.

It is still far better than relying on for profit insurance companies. Better for coverage, better for overall health and even better for cost savings to tax payers.

[saxitoxin]

But such a move towards expanding welfare similar to Norway's comes at a huge, unseen cost. The US will definitely lose business with higher taxes in order to raise more revenue to support such an ambitious and expensive program like the so-called Obamacare.

I like France's system or Germany's. Providing universal coverage and a single payor type system, even just setting up one basic form and coding system for insurance would save money in the long run.

Germany doesn't have a "single payor" system. Or even a "single payer" system.

[Juan_Bottom]

My point about Norway is basically this

The Point isn't that the US really should be just like Norway, (at least for me), the point is that we could move a lot closer to them and not, as Phattscotty et al seem to imply, wind up with a totalitarian communist regime here.

&
The state doesn't force an oil company to split it's profits with Norway's people; the state is the oil company. The Nords don't believe in privatizing mineral rights as we do here, instead they believe that it's Norway's oil (not Shell or Exxon's) so all Norwegians should share it.
Personally, every time I hear the word "privatization" I know that the politician who asked for it has already sold out. I think that the Nords are completely in the right on this one.

Furthermore, the Scandinavian's have somehow figured out how to have something like a $35 minimum wage, free health care, 5 weeks minimum paid vacation, 35 hour work week, paid maternity leave, nationalized retirement, full unemployment benefits, and still have nice GNP's. I have no idea how to make that work here, and truley don't see it happening, but I'm all ears.... I have no idea why other Americans aren't. Literally, we are much closer to the Chinese model of labor than we are to the Scandinavian one.... out loud that sounds scary... And here we sit, debating whether health care reform works or not, while Einer is laughing at me on facebook cause he's on his third week of vacation.

[nietzsche]

saxi, being yourself a doctor, do you think that doctors are overpaid these days? where is your feeling in the line that has to be drawn between basic medical care and "luxury" medical care?

In Mexico, we could generalize that the attention you get from a private doctor is better than the attention you get from a public doctor. What does this imply in relation to the ethics of a doctor?

thanks

[DangerBoy]

She thinks that anyone who doesn't crown her as some type of authoritative source must be totally immersed in Fox News or listening to Rush Limbaugh. They have their ears plugged and won't listen to reason, while she happens to know what the REAL issue is.

And, again, you have not disputed even a single data point I presented, and those of us "on the other side" have well disputed what you put forward.

So, once again, you descend to personnal attacks instead of countering ideas. Yes, I do sometimes call people idiots, for believing certain things and refusing to verify information.

Blah Blah Blah, player. You're a broken record.

Newsflash, the Tea Party is not about real change.

Here's the real equation: universal healthcare means healthier people who are more productive and, in the long run (not immediately, but down the road), cost less overall.

The problem with the right wing is that they want to move those scales over, and declare that ALL citizens, not just a few have to obey the standards they consider correct.. and too often they do so based solely on superficial understandings of the real issues involved.

it would be nice if you compared your thinking to real countries that actually have the systems you claim "won't work", etc, etc, etc, instead of these fictitious ideas you have about what it means.

REAL comparisons, not illusionary

Notice how he quickly ignores any real data brought forward that disproves his points?

The real truth is that KKK was not considered much by non-whites outside of the south. (but, yes, this gets complicated. I am just giving a brief rundown).

Now, to get back to the real debate:

With Reagan, you had to listen close to get the "real message"

The real truth is that when you advocate groups like Promise keepers, etc.

The REAL reason for Arizona's immigration law?

the right wing has been at distorting the truth and getting people to focus on anything but the real truth that the economy IS improving and that more government controls will help reign in the abuses by banks and corporations that caused this mess.

You say this, yet, the REAL truth is that you can learn a lot about TRUE conservative and right wing views by listening to NPR.

That was only a very small sampling of how Player insulates herself from reality by dismissing anything outside of her little bubble world by claiming she knows the REAL truth.

[jay_a2j]

That was only a very small sampling of how Player insulates herself from reality by dismissing anything outside of her little bubble world by claiming she knows the REAL truth.

Well done! I don't think I could have bared to spend the time digging all that up but point well noted!

[Juan_Bottom]

[PLAYER57832]

That was only a very small sampling of how Player insulates herself from reality by dismissing anything outside of her little bubble world by claiming she knows the REAL truth.

No, its actually a pretty good sampling of how often the rest of you ignore data in favor of your opinions.

And again.. I notice that you never once actually refuted what I say. You just claim that because I am disagreeing with you, I am "insulated from reality". That, even though I repeatedly demostrate I truly do know your positions.. and you show you know almost nothing of mine.

[PLAYER57832]

That was only a very small sampling of how Player insulates herself from reality by dismissing anything outside of her little bubble world by claiming she knows the REAL truth.

Well done! I don't think I could have bared to spend the time digging all that up but point well noted!

And yet, you still have not addressed the data I presented. Unable to understand it jay? Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

You claim over and over and over that any touch of socialism will mean no freedom. Several of us bring up example after example of how that is patently false.. and you STILL try to claim I am the one who doesn't know what she is talking about, is ignoring reality.

[jay_a2j]

That was only a very small sampling of how Player insulates herself from reality by dismissing anything outside of her little bubble world by claiming she knows the REAL truth.

Well done! I don't think I could have bared to spend the time digging all that up but point well noted!

And yet, you still have not addressed the data I presented. Unable to understand it jay? Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

You claim over and over and over that any touch of socialism will mean no freedom. Several of us bring up example after example of how that is patently false.. and you STILL try to claim I am the one who doesn't know what she is talking about, is ignoring reality.

I'm just trying to remember all those socialist quotes by Jesus.....


If your right hand causes you to sin go to the free clinic and have it removed.
Blessed are the poor for they shall be taken care of by the rich.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's so that he may redistribute it.
Take up your cross daily and if you can't have your neighbor carry it.


(Note:these are not quotes by Jesus, it is how socialist think they should read)

[GreecePwns]

Let's see actual facts this time instead of the nothing that's been presented from the anti-Obamacare crowd now. Or is asking for facts being out of touch with reality.

[saxitoxin]

The state doesn't force an oil company to split it's profits with Norway's people; the state is the oil company. The Nords don't believe in privatizing mineral rights as we do here, instead they believe that it's Norway's oil (not Shell or Exxon's) so all Norwegians should share it.

Well put, as always.

In the Marxist-Leninist model all private property is abolished. This is no attempt to be "fair." This is simply the natural state-of-affairs in all traditional civilizations. In a traditional civilization you curate only the property you are able to personally defend against intruders. However, in industrial society, through the process of deeds and titles, the cost of curating private property is transferred from individuals to the state through the cost of maintaining police forces, municipal clerks and land surveyors. Marxism-Leninism simply seeks to restore a true, free market, where the State doesn't subsidize real estate adventurism.

Furthermore, the Scandinavian's have somehow figured out how to have something like a $35 minimum wage

Well, Norway doesn't have a state-regulated minimum wage.

So, the first step for the U.S. to become like Norway would be to repeal all minimum wage laws tomorrow. The second step would be to triple the per-capita debt burden (just like Norway) to fund all the taupe-coloured furniture, bobsledding holidays, mints on pillows, and daily handjobs from supermodels. The third step would be to discover such massive oil reserves that oil alone increased to 50% the U.S. export market, like Norway, versus 0% as now. And then drill for it anywhere and everywhere - parks, offshore, wherever.

A more realistic solution for the United States is the armed overthrow of parasitic capitalism. The world isn't a fairyland, the lunatic Fabians who try to make it one are dreamers doomed to disappointment as the French, Spanish, Portuguese and British (or anyone not sitting on a Norway-style mountain of black gold) are discovering. The only options are (1) pig-capitalism, or, (2) The Movement for the Three-Revolution Red Banner. Personally, I choose the latter.

saxi, being yourself a doctor, do you think that doctors are overpaid these days? where is your feeling in the line that has to be drawn between basic medical care and "luxury" medical care? In Mexico, we could generalize that the attention you get from a private doctor is better than the attention you get from a public doctor. What does this imply in relation to the ethics of a doctor? thanks

It's utterly impossible for me answer you, nietzsche. Already each of your posts fill me with such a warming sense of delight. Since you added your current avatar, however, it's all I can do to keep my head from exploding with joyful ecstasy each time I read something you've written. This is the closest I've ever felt to what the Pillsbury Doughboy must experience each time that monstrous woman molests him.

Blah Blah Blah, player. You're a broken record.

As a person on the left myself I often think that she must be a plant of some type designed to discredit the left through her atrocious grammar and spelling, her cringe-worthy fall-back cry of "IDIOT! IDIOT! IDIOT!", her horrific command of basic facts about basic knowledge (see where she makes a concrete assertion here regarding 527 groups [though she didn't actually know what they were called and had to use the placeholder term she invented, like a baby wanting to express itself but not having full language ability, "new groups"], is rebuffed and slinks into the shadows: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=130624) and her absolutely shameless pimping of her family from thread to thread.

[PLAYER57832]

(Note:these are not quotes by Jesus, it is how socialist think they should read)

Wherever you got that impression, it was neither from socialists, study of socialism nor the Bible.

[PLAYER57832]

Uh, Player ... the link I cited said $107,000 per person. If you multiply $107,000 x 4 ("family of four", as I said) you get $428,000, or, colloquially, "$500,000."

And now you descend to changing your posts, once errors are found.

Really, you have descended below even what we expect from you.

Your original post, which sadly, I did not quote , referred to individuals owing 500K (I triple checked before calling you out on that) AND did not say "coloquial", either.

You can prove anything by lying.

[saxitoxin]

Your original post, which sadly, I did not quote , referred to individuals owing 500K (I triple checked before calling you out on that) AND did not say "coloquial", either.

Huckleberry, I still don't think you understand what "colloquialism" means. One generally doesn't preface their words with the caveat "I am now going to speak colloquially." Either you get it or you don't. You, very obviously, don't.

But, if you think you scored a GOTCHA! moment because you discovered that Belgians are only $428,000 in debt per family of four rather than $500,000 as I colloquially said, you should absolutely celebrate your ideological victory. You really showed me!

Jesus, what a nutcase.

[Nola_Lifer]

There was a day when healthcare didn't exist and people seemed to manage to pay their medical bills without it. How much does insurance cost? Why should we be forced to have health care and pay for it not only out of pocket but through taxes too? Health care is a scam. It should be eliminated completely. I should be able to take the money I would spend on insurance and invest it wisely, so if i did have some medical problem I would be able to pay for it myself through savings. With Universal health care we are forced to play by "their" rules. Screw that I am gonna play by mine.
EDIt: This theory may be construed as rightist but who wants to pay a third part or have a third part save our money just in case we do have some major accident. How often does an average person see their doctor. I see mine once every two years if that.

[Juan_Bottom]

Well put, as always.

Well, Norway doesn't have a state-regulated minimum wage.

I'm aware, I was trying to say it in a way that showed that I only had basic knowledge. My cousin was born in Wisconsin, to Norwegian parents, ran away from home to Norway, and makes $44 an hour out of high school there. He actually sends money home to his sister. What I spoke of was from our correspondences together and a quick google tie-in.

So, the first step for the U.S. to become like Norway would be to repeal all minimum wage laws tomorrow. The second step would be to triple the per-capita debt burden (just like Norway) to fund all the taupe-coloured furniture, bobsledding holidays, mints on pillows, and daily handjobs from supermodels. The third step would be to discover such massive oil reserves that oil alone increased to 50% the U.S. export market, like Norway, versus 0% as now. And then drill for it anywhere and everywhere - parks, offshore, wherever.

What?
If we did start shipping out that much oil, worldwide oil would lose its value and we'd be bankrupt. We do have a lot of oil, like Norway, but we also have coal, copper, gold, feldspar, ect. We have all kinds of minerals. I'm not advocating a society identical to Norway, I'm just trying to point out that other places have better systems. That said;

A more realistic solution for the United States is the armed overthrow of parasitic capitalism. The world isn't a fairyland, the lunatic Fabians who try to make it one are dreamers doomed to disappointment as the French, Spanish, Portuguese and British (or anyone not sitting on a Norway-style mountain of black gold) are discovering. The only options are (1) pig-capitalism, or, (2) The Movement for the Three-Revolution Red Banner. Personally, I choose the latter.

I'm actually moving closer to your line of thinking than I even feel comfortable admitting. I'm not saying that you're right, but with the system we are using now we all bet our lives on a lottery ticket and hope the jerk-offs on the top haven't rigged the drawing (which, they admit they do). Anyway, America still has a lot going for it most days.

[soldierboy]

Just to change pace a little bit what about the heath care Obama wanted to do with the military! He wanted to take it away from them and make them have to get their own health care plan just because they volunteered to join and they knew what they were getting themselves into!!!!!!!!!! I served 8 years in the military and 3 tours to Iraq and this really ticks me off!!!

[GreecePwns]

Just to change pace a little bit what about the heath care Obama wanted to do with the military! He wanted to take it away from them and make them have to get their own health care plan just because they volunteered to join and they knew what they were getting themselves into!!!!!!!!!! I served 8 years in the military and 3 tours to Iraq and this really ticks me off!!!

Source? I feel like this would be political suicide. Then again, I also felt that about denying health care for 9/11 responders, but that was deemed as "excessive spending" by our wonderful Senate and the legalized tyranny-of-the-minority that is the filibuster.

[PLAYER57832]

Just to change pace a little bit what about the heath care Obama wanted to do with the military! He wanted to take it away from them and make them have to get their own health care plan just because they volunteered to join and they knew what they were getting themselves into!!!!!!!!!! I served 8 years in the military and 3 tours to Iraq and this really ticks me off!!!

Source? If true, I will be sending off a few letters IMMEDIATELY.

EDIT. Did a little checking (3 leading google entries.. by no means true verification). Although Stewart says the military would be forced to buy private insurance, other sources say the plan was actually to bill private insurance that the veterans already have.

"The vets are paying premiums to insurance companies, and that is a free ride that needs to stop," Gorman said in describing the president's message to the group.

Even so, many Veterans groups are upset because they see this as leading to elimination of the VA, etc.
They feel that requiring third party billing would complicate things. But, they are afraid that it will go through unless another way to save $540 million is found.

I don't feel I know enough yet, also it does seem the plan was dropped. I do think its reasonable to expect private insurers, who already insure soldiers, to bear some of the burden. If they are being paid premiums, so why should they just be able to exclude these guys and keep making profit? But, I do not feel soldiers should be required to have non-VA insurance.

ON another side, I find it interesting that so much of the debate here has been about Obama turning our healthcare system into socialized healthcare. Yet, here we have one component that truly IS socialized and it seems Obama is moving in the other direction, privatizing. Even so, the same people are objecting.

[Night Strike]

ON another side, I find it interesting that so much of the debate here has been about Obama turning our healthcare system into socialized healthcare. Yet, here we have one component that truly IS socialized and it seems Obama is moving in the other direction, privatizing. Even so, the same people are objecting.

You just don't get it do you? Do you have any clue what the proper role of the federal government is supposed to be? The federal government is responsible for establishing and funding a standing army, which includes providing for the needs of those people who sacrifice everything to serve. The only group of people who should be provided health care by the government is those military people. Instead, the administration wishes to dump their only responsibility in favor of expanding their power over everyone else. It's a perfectly understandable reason for us to object to both facets.

[Night Strike]

So if this health care law is so good, why does the administration continue to hand out waivers to shut up their critics and favor their supporters? Sounds like bribes to me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/business/07insure.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/health/policy/10waiver.html

[Phatscotty]

Just to change pace a little bit what about the heath care Obama wanted to do with the military! He wanted to take it away from them and make them have to get their own health care plan just because they volunteered to join and they knew what they were getting themselves into!!!!!!!!!! I served 8 years in the military and 3 tours to Iraq and this really ticks me off!!!

Source? I feel like this would be political suicide. Then again, I also felt that about denying health care for 9/11 responders, but that was deemed as "excessive spending" by our wonderful Senate and the legalized tyranny-of-the-minority that is the filibuster.

oh please.... That is preposterous.

[tdans]

I am the 2000th post....