Is it OK to use a language other than English in game chat?

[Cynthia]

tahitiwahini wrote
Kahless wrote:
tahitiwahini wrote:
Cynthia wrote:
Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Its strange?What translator you use to translate these?

[tahitiwahini]

Also, I wonder why a person would start a poll only to
If all you're after is affirmation of your opinion, why not just set up a poll where all the answers agree with you. Then you always win!

The poll results as of now:

Is it OK to use a language other than English in the game chat?
Yes, it's always OK. 25% [ 14 ]
Yes, it's OK, but only if all the players speak that language. 47% [ 26 ]
No,English should be the only language allowed in game chat. 14% [ 8 ]
Other (I don't like any of the above options). 12% [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 55

The purpose of a poll as I understand it is to find out what people think, not to influence what they think.

Discounting the "other" vote (simply because I can't tell what they support), it looks like 61% agree (in some part) with my position, whereas 25% agree with yours. If all I was looking for was affirmation I guess I could quit now, declare victory, and move on to something else.

As it is I enjoy discussing and debating ideas and to the extent that my opponent's have presented me with ideas and arguments I've tried to engage with them.

If you think I've "vehemently and sometimes insultingly argued" with those that oppose my position I submit to you that you might benefit from another read through the thread (you admitted you have the time, it won't take long). I don't seem to recall calling anyone a "reactionary" or a "bigot" for having a different opinion than mine. I've tried to address my opponents points and rebut them. I was taught that's how one has a rational discussion with someone.

Admittedly, I have little patience with someone who criticizes an argument without taking the time to understand the argument first. Maybe that's what you referring to? If so, might I suggest that leaving "reactionary" and "bigot" out of the discussion might go a long way toward keeping the discussion on a higher level. The indiscriminate use of such terms tends to obscure the point being made, but it is perhaps understandable if one is dubious as to the strength of one's argument.

Was the poll unfair? How would you change it to make it better?

You can respond with an epithet if you wish, it certainly takes less time than formulating an answer, but I'd like to think you're better than that.

[tahitiwahini]

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Its strange?What translator you use to translate these?

Is this any better?

Kako se ovaj poboljšati sporazum?

http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?

The online translators (at least the free ones) are fairly primitive. The simpler the sentence the more likely it will be translated better. It's probably my fault for giving it a convoluted English sentence.

[sully800]

I would first like to note that I actually read everything in this thread

Anyway, this has been brought up previously in the cheating and abuse forum- whether or not posting alliance details in a foreign language constitutes it as secret. I PM'ed Andy regarding the case and this was his reponse

I think ammending the rules to something similar to that is on Lack's To-Do list. I'll make sure to talk with him about it. Most likely, it will also come when the rules are explained a little more clearly (I.E. fixing MoH issue completely) in the soon while.

For now, politely state that alliances should be announced in english.


--Andy

The entire point of the rule regarding secret alliances is that everyone in the game should be able to understand that the alliance is happening. Therefore posting the alliance in a language people can't understand is a loophole in the rule and will probably be corrected. There are plenty of loopholes if you read the rule quite literally, as I have pointed out before.

"Any form of collusion between opponents must be announced in the game chat."

So does that mean its okay to have an alliance the entire game and only announce it after the game is finished or other opponents have been eliminated? Well I would have followed the rules of announcing it in the game chat but I clearly did not follow the spirit of the rule which is why something like that would not fly.

Similarly, I could have a friend in the game with me in which we know our own private language. Would it be okay for me to post my alliance in that language? Well it would follow the rule with a literal interpretation but once again it is not in the spirit of the rule.

Yes, I know that language translators are available on the internet. However they are not accurate, and you need to know what language you are translating in order for them to work. It is impractical for every player on this site to be able to recognize every language in the world. Additionally, every language is not included in those internet translators so you could still be stuck if its a less common language.

Therefore, in the spirit of the rule, alliances should be posted so that everyone can understand they are happening. If everyone in the game speaks spanish it would be perfectly fine to only post in spanish. Similarly, this rule would not prevent people from chatting in their native language or even discussing alliance details in the language they feel more comfortable with. They simply need to be able to say "This player and this player have an alliance." I know that English is not everyone's first language, but if they can't speak english at all and they are on this site, then they wouldn't be able to read any of the rules in the first place.

So the point is...I can't guarantee that the rule will be changed to say that every alliance must be declared in English or a language common to all players...but based on Andy's previous thoughts it probably will be in the future.

[tahitiwahini]

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

It's Hrvatski. And if that doesn't help, you can get a clue from the fact that qwert knew it was a pretty lousy translation.

Online translators are better than nothing, but sometimes they produce some pretty hilarious results. It can also be fun to translate a sentence from one language into another language and then back again. And then repeat multiple times. If the translator were perfect, in theory you wouldn't lose the core meaning of the sentence. Often though, that's not what happens.

Which brings me back to my original point: it's really helpful to have a common language, if the goal is to promote understanding. I would argue that the purpose of the requiriement to announce alliances in game chat is geared toward promoting understanding of that fact (namely, that there is an alliance in the game and what its terms are). To believe otherwise is I think to make a mockery of the requirement, to render the requirement pointless. If that makes me a "reactionary bigot" then I really have to question the type of interaction here that passes for reasoned discussion. As it is I think it's the exception rather than the rule. Most people here are willing to engage in a polite discussion. That's the purpose of the forums anyway, isn't it?

Thanks for the Gaelic. I didn't recognize it at first, and then when I finally figured it out I couldn't find a English-Gaelic online translator. I ended up sending it to a Gaelic language forum.

Me: "May I have a translation please: Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?"

Gaelic Language forum: "What's that mean in English, please?"

Me: "I'm not testing anyone. I don't know what it means in English. I'm just hoping it's actually Gaelic, I don't really know."

Gaelic Language forum: "No, sorry about that! I was giving you the translation: What's that mean in English, please?"

Me:

There used to be an Abbott and Costello comedy routine that started with Costello asking "Who's on first?" to which Costello would reply "Yes."
It reads pretty well on the page, but it's much funnier to actually hear it performed:

http://members.aol.com/ACQtrly/who.html

[Nephilim]

tahiti, in my mind, here is the only real problem. this is one of the choices you put in your poll:

"No,English should be the only language allowed in game chat."

then you advocated this as the correct answer. so, literally, you have proposed or at least advocated the idea that in order for us to avoid cheating, no other language besides english can be used in game chat. sure, you have shaded and hedged in the discussion after the poll and initial post, but the above quote and your endorsement of it got me into the discussion.

notice the other dissenting voices here: we are trying to tell you that it is reactionary and dangerous to disallow all non-english languages b/c of 2 documented cheaters. the problem is cheating, the answer is not to ban all languages but english.

of course i agree that announcing an alliance in the chat in a language that not everyone understands is exploiting a loophole and is indeed cheating. all i've tried to say is that making english the only allowed language (tahiti's poll choice and his actual opinion stated in first post) is a bad, even ugly solution.

cheers

[sully800]

tahiti, in my mind, here is the only real problem. this is one of the choices you put in your poll:

"No,English should be the only language allowed in game chat."

then you advocated this as the correct answer. so, literally, you have proposed or at least advocated the idea that in order for us to avoid cheating, no other language besides english can be used in game chat. sure, you have shaded and hedged in the discussion after the poll and initial post, but the above quote and your endorsement of it got me into the discussion.

notice the other dissenting voices here: we are trying to tell you that it is reactionary and dangerous to disallow all non-english languages b/c of 2 documented cheaters. the problem is cheating, the answer is not to ban all languages but english.

of course i agree that announcing an alliance in the chat in a language that not everyone understands is exploiting a loophole and is indeed cheating. all i've tried to say is that making english the only allowed language (tahiti's poll choice and his actual opinion stated in first post) is a bad, even ugly solution.

cheers

Well in that case I think all 3 of us agree. The players should have the right to speak gaelic to each other, announce their alliance in english and then go back to speaking gaelic. Or whatever the language may be.

The poll doesn't reflect that situation but I think that is what is actually desired.

[Colossus]

i've not read this whole thread, only skimmed. but it would be really silly to make an official language, or even demand that a common language be used in games.

we can't police everything. you never really know if secret alliances are being made; you never know if a language you can't understand contains illegal stuff. anglocentrism isn't the answer.....not least b/c there are thousands of players here who dont speak english as a first language

First off I'd give a little more weight to your opinion if you had read the whole thread and not just skimmed.

Second, if you never really know if a secret alliance is being made, then I guess if makes no sense to have a rule prohibiting them, does it? The rule would be unenforceable, wouldn't it?

It happens that English is the de facto common language for this site. If you don't speak English how do you navigate this site and play the game? If I'm not mistaken the site is pretty much all written in English, is it not?

English is the lingua franca for much of the world's communications for many of the same political and economic reasons that other languages have been in the past (e.g., French, Latin). It's not anglocentric to point this out, it's a fact. Might it change in the future? Sure, but for now English is the most widely spoken second language in the world. For example all international air traffic control worldwide is in English.

This site would be utterly chaotic without a common language. I fail to see how this is silly. I guess I must be missing something?

This is not remotely indicative of a person who is merely interested in seeing what people think about something. This has all the hallmarks of someone who wants to influence what people think.

Anyway, it is obviously common courtesy to have alliances announced in a language everyone can understand. I just can't help but wonder how many people have had instances where they suspect two or more players in a game have been colluding and forming illicit alliances in a language they don't understand.

[tahitiwahini]

I would think the answer should be no, because otherwise it would be too easy to set up secret alliances, thereby running afoul of the rules.

However, I guess if all the players in the game speak a language other than English, and no one objected, then it should be OK.

Nephilim, I hope you won't take offence if I just say that it's possible to read this thread with an open mind.

That's the quote from my original post. I think a careful reading of that quote would lead someone to conclude that I'm indicating support for the second poll option: "Yes, it's OK, but only if all the players speak that language." I think that's the fair reading of my statements and it has the added benefit of being the way I actually voted. People who have taken the poll by a 48% to 14% margin apparently were also able to reach the same conclusion that has somehow escaped you.

From that initial misreading, you have escalated into talk of banning people who's first language isn't English, talked about "reactionary" people discriminating against non-native English speakers, finally ending up saying I have a "bad, even ugly solution." Somewhere, in there I think you referred to my position as "precursor to nationalist fascism." I think that says a lot more about you than it does about me. What intellectual baggage you must be carrying around with you! All without seeing how such hyperbole hurts your cause.

I went on to discuss in several posts that I had no problem with players conducting game chat in a language other than English if everyone in the game speaks that other common language.

For example:

It would be simple enough to add a clause to the rules which states that any alliance must be declared in English or in a language all players understand, as realistically it isn't fair to expect people to converse in English all the time especially if their English is shaky and their Ukrainian is fluent. If it isn't declared in English (or a language everyone understands if, for example, it is an all-Dutch game) then it should be considered a secret alliance.

A very sensible proposal.

I don't think anyone is objecting to game chat in which Dutch is used in a game in which all the players speak Dutch. In that game Dutch is the common language.

Your proposal captures the distinction quite nicely.

Allow me to express the notion that your behavior has a certain "shoot first, ask questions later" tendency that I think does a disservice to the ideas you're trying to express. I think it does little to advance your argument, but the proof of that rests with other's judgement not mine.

Finally, go back and read Sully's post. I'm assuming you don't think he is a "reactionary bigot" or perhaps a "precursor to nationalist fascism." It's an entirely reasonable argument he presents. You don't have to agree with it of course, but you can at least dignify it with some careful thought. Or is that too much to ask?

You claim to have read the entire thread. If that's true I have some doubts about the quality of your comprehension. If you are not a native English speaker, I apologize for pointing this out. I'm absolutely certain that you do a much more commendable job in English than I would be capable of in your native language.

[Nephilim]

zero occurrences here in a whole buncha games

[Nephilim]

alrite, tahiti, this is hopefully my final post. your reasoning powers are shit, and your observation skills ain't so great either. where did i claim to have read this entire thread?

let me get this strait: you actually said, "I would think the answer should be no," but a "fair reading" would lead a competent reader to think you favor an answer other than "no." that's what you're saying.

Furthermore, this statement is utter nonsense:
"People who have taken the poll by a 48% to 14% margin apparently were also able to reach the same conclusion that has somehow escaped you."

so, the point of the poll is to guess what tahiti's answer is and then vote for it? that is the gist of the paragraph containing the above quote.

i can read and comprehend what you are saying. you are saying that game chat should be written ONLY in english unless all game players are fluent in whatever other languages are used.

that is an utter bullshit idea and betrays an anglocentric mind, which is essentially racist, nationalist and hateful. i may discuss this with you further, if at sometime in the future you stop contradicting yourself and making illogical statements.

[tahitiwahini]

zero occurrences here in a whole buncha games

Responding to you is a Sysiphean task. You're wearing me down... LOL

It happened in the game referenced in the first post. But since you read the whole thread you already knew that.

IronE.GLE reports it happening in a game in one of the posts in this thread. But since you read the whole thread you already knew that too.

Ever hear the old saying that if you are digging yourself deeper in a hole the first order of business should be to stop digging?

Here's a suggestion: take the time you would spend compositing another response to this thread and actually read the thread instead.

If I ever decide to form a standup comedian team I know where I can find my Lou Costello...

[Colossus]

I love that disagreement implies a 'shoot first, ask questions later' mindset. that's awesome. Exactly the sort of indictment of dissension that is the foundation of the most successful societies in history! Go, tahiti, you pillar of the community!

As for Sully's post, it was clear, convincing, and in no way insulting or offensive to those who might have asserted an opinion differing to his. Right on, Sully!

As for further comment on your part, Tahiti, I'm done commenting on this.... so I guess that means you win!

[Qwert]

Cyntia speaks in what language?

[tahitiwahini]

As for further comment on your part, Tahiti, I'm done commenting on this.... so I guess that means you win!

Thanks, I think. I didn't realize the issue was in doubt

[Colossus]

excellent. we should play Risk sometime.

[Cynthia]

Cyntia speaks in what language?

Norwegian

[tahitiwahini]

excellent. we should play Risk sometime.

Ah... could the game chat be in English. Not trying to impose my anglocentric, imperialistic, national fascistic (well maybe not full-blown but certainly its precursor), bigoted, ugly, bullshit language on you, I'm just asking...

[tahitiwahini]

Cyntia speaks in what language?

Norwegian

and sometimes Gaelic. One never knows quite what to expect...

[tahitiwahini]

Hey qwert,

Is there a larger picture of that WWII map anywhere? Looks interesting.

[Colossus]

I don't speak anything else except egregiously broken spanish, so si.

[RobinJ]

I love that disagreement implies a 'shoot first, ask questions later' mindset. that's awesome. Exactly the sort of indictment of dissension that is the foundation of the most successful societies in history! Go, tahiti, you pillar of the community!

As for Sully's post, it was clear, convincing, and in no way insulting or offensive to those who might have asserted an opinion differing to his. Right on, Sully!

I have to say that I agree - Sully's reasoning was a hell of a lot better and had some proof. That quote of his stood me corrected. I still disagree with a lot said in this thread but, thanks to Sully, I am coming round more to your (tahiti's) point of view. Unfortunately, your arguments were terrible and no wonder they sparked such a heated debate. I agree with those who criticise tahiti for how he/she has manipulated this poll into a, "I'm right and no-one else can have an opinion" argument. Reminds me of a teacher at school who told me not so long ago that my opinion was wrong (you can't have a wrong opinion!).

One final thing tahiti: you have been on this website for not much longer than a month and so you could show a little more respect for some of the more experienced (and more skilled) players. I am not referring to myself here but players like Nephilim who are top ranking colonels (I got hammered by him in a match about a month ago). As the saying goes: "Manners maketh the man"

[tahitiwahini]

I love that disagreement implies a 'shoot first, ask questions later' mindset. that's awesome. Exactly the sort of indictment of dissension that is the foundation of the most successful societies in history! Go, tahiti, you pillar of the community!

As for Sully's post, it was clear, convincing, and in no way insulting or offensive to those who might have asserted an opinion differing to his. Right on, Sully!

I have to say that I agree - Sully's reasoning was a hell of a lot better and had some proof. That quote of his stood me corrected. I still disagree with a lot said in this thread but, thanks to Sully, I am coming round more to your (tahiti's) point of view. Unfortunately, your arguments were terrible and no wonder they sparked such a heated debate. I agree with those who criticise tahiti for how he/she has manipulated this poll into a, "I'm right and no-one else can have an opinion" argument. Reminds me of a teacher at school who told me not so long ago that my opinion was wrong (you can't have a wrong opinion!).

One final thing tahiti: you have been on this website for not much longer than a month and so you could show a little more respect for some of the more experienced (and more skilled) players. I am not referring to myself here but players like Nephilim who are top ranking colonels (I got hammered by him in a match about a month ago). As the saying goes: "Manners maketh the man"

I'm glad you found Sully's argument convincing. I found it to be convincing as well so I guess on that limited point we agree.

As for the rest of your post, I have to say I'm flabbergasted, especially over the last paragraph. It's like we read the same thread but it must have been in two parallel universes.

The fact that Nephilim is a top ranking Colonel is an interesting fact (congratulations Nephilim!), however, it doesn't change my opinion of his argument in this thread which I found to be wanting. I judge people by the content of their argument and how they present it, not on their rank. Regarding manners, I'll redouble my efforts to be polite and not call people names because I know how bothersome that can be.

Well, anyway that's my opinion, and everyone knows "you can't have a wrong opinion."

[Qwert]

How the hell you manage to translate from norwegian to (serbia croatian) language?Its some special translator?

[tahitiwahini]

How the hell you manage to translate from norwegian to (serbia croatian) language?Its some special translator?

If you're asking about me, it was just English into Croatian. I'm monolingual (English).

If you're asking about Cynthia, I think she is at least bi-lingual (Norwegian and English), so I suspect she could have used the translator I mentioned before (or one similar) to go either from Croatian to Norwegian, or from Croatian to English.

As you can see though the translator doesn't do a perfect job.