Should Britain Join the Euro?

[The1exile]

As I'm having to argue this in a few days and have my argument more or less worked out, I'd like to hear the opinion of some people on here to debate my points and hopefully expand my views.

So... what do people think (especially the brits around here)?

[Kugelblitz22]

Where's the option for I'm a dumb American who doesn't tune into world news? Oh wait just because I'm not informed doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, I am American.

I voted yes.

[Guiscard]

Yep. The only way forwatd is to integrate more fully into the EU, and the Euro is a major step towards this. The survival as Europe as an autonomous area who can oppose America or power in Asia depends on unity.

As for economics, I can't really comment as I don't know enough about it.

I do like how the coins look though!

[flashleg8]

Yes. It will strengthen the EU. And I'm very pro-European.

P.S. Good topic, I'll get more into the debate when some euro-sceptics join in.

P.P.S. What you debating for or against?

[The1exile]

Mostly I'm for... my issue is mostly arguments againsst. Most consist of "It's taking away our national identity" (which I think is rubbish and irrelevant, especially with the whole globalization thing going on) or "The pound is worth more" (but why anyone would worry about carry €3 instead of £2 I don't know).

[RobinJ]

I voted yes simply because it would make going abroad a lot easier. On the other hand, the pound is a much stronger currency so...

[Ruben Cassar]

I am from Malta and we will be adopting the Euro next year. I understand that the British love their Sterling and that the Sterling is one of the oldest currencies in the world. I think it's over 1000 years old. Does anyone know exactly?

Anyway it makes economical sense for Britain to adopt the Euro and assume more pro-European policies. Europe needs to integrate more. However I think that people in Britain oppose it because of national pride and maybe romanticism as well...and I can understand that.

[flashleg8]

Mostly I'm for... my issue is mostly arguments againsst. Most consist of "It's taking away our national identity" (which I think is rubbish and irrelevant, especially with the whole globalization thing going on) or "The pound is worth more" (but why anyone would worry about carry €3 instead of £2 I don't know).

If you're looking for economics arguments against the Euro, I'd stay off jingoistic arguments like "the pound is our national identity" - I'd stress more that the UK would give away our freedom to adjust the interest rate to control our own inflation. This would be a down side to the Euro which has for example hit the German economy hard in recent years. In response though be prepared for the counter argument that the interest rate in Britain at the moment already causes regional problems, especially in the housing market (the interest rate obviously effects the price of your mortgage) - for example while London’s and the South East's house prices are becoming astronomical and unaffordable for the average buyer (thus necessitating an interest rate rise). Other parts of the UK are growing at a more steady pace and this interest rate rise will detrimentally effect this.

Your second point about the pound being strong is also a difficult point to argue. A strong pound helps us buy goods from the Eurozone cheaply so is good for the consumer generally, but it is crippling for UK manufacturing as to sell anything made here to the Eurozone will be less competitive. This is part of the reason we have lost massive amounts of manufacturing to Europe - not just to cheap Eastern European Labour but also to Ireland. I've personal experience of this as one of my previous jobs (as an electronic engineer) supplying the microchip industry got axed just for this reason alone.

[RenegadePaddy]

We should have been in from the start - greater influence would have been nice.

A main sticking point is the lack of control - how many stories do you hear of Brussels passing daft regulations, or those not suited to Britain? The press are very fond of scaring a generally conservative populace.

Plus, remember our economy is both differently skewed and of different strength to say, Germany or Spain, making the effects of things like price transparency potentially damaging.

[flashleg8]

We should have been in from the start - greater influence would have been nice.

Agreed. We missed the boat there.

A main sticking point is the lack of control - how many stories do you hear of Brussels passing daft regulations, or those not suited to Britain? The press are very fond of scaring a generally conservative populace.

The right wing euro-sceptic press maybe. If I hear one more story about EU laws regarding bananas....

Plus, remember our economy is both differently skewed and of different strength to say, Germany or Spain, making the effects of things like price transparency potentially damaging.

This is correct, but the stronger the EU is and as time goes on we will have greater parity. Look at how Spain, Ireland and Portugal’s economy’s have transformed under the EU - we should expect this for Eastern European countries as well. It will take time but a stronger EU will mean benefits for all of us - free trade zone helps all our economies, free movement of people allows us to cope with regional irregularities by an easy tranferrable labour market.

[RenegadePaddy]

A main sticking point is the lack of control - how many stories do you hear of Brussels passing daft regulations, or those not suited to Britain? The press are very fond of scaring a generally conservative populace.

The right wing euro-sceptic press maybe. If I hear one more story about EU laws regarding bananas....

True, true

However, sad fact is no Prime Minister will ever put us in without a referendum, and the general populace are sadly not tht bright, and tend to believe the crap spread in such tablods as the Sun, thus making the chance of a favourable result extremely difficult to get.

[Stopper]

Okaaayyy, I've always been in favour of the UK joining the Euro, and I still am - but I think it's politically impossible now, even if the government hadn't put it off for years, because of the poor performances of the French and German economies compared to the UK's in the last ten years. What difference it would have made had we joined the Euro, I don't know - I suspect it would have made, and still make, little difference, but you can see why people would be reticent to join currencies with the French and Germans when they're still struggling with 1% growth rates.

Flashleg, when you talked about the UK giving away its right to control the interest rate - that was a misgiving I had before 1997, because I would say the EU institutions as they stand are pretty unaccountable at the moment in the UK (though that isn't all their fault - the press has a lot to do with this.)

But having said that - the Chancellor gave control of the interest rate over to the Bank of England four days after he took position, so you could say that argument is irrelevant now, because the interest rate is in the control of technocrats anyway. It doesn't matter, in theory, whether they are based in London, or...eeeer, where is the Euro rate set now? Frankfurt, is it?

[Ruben Cassar]

France growth rate for 2006 - 2.0%
Germany growth rate for 2006 - 2.3%

A bit better than 1% mate. However Great Britain had 2.7% growth in 2006.

Source: The Economist

[Stopper]

France growth rate for 2006 - 2.0%
Germany growth rate for 2006 - 2.3%

A bit better than 1% mate. However Great Britain had 2.7% growth in 2006.

Source: The Economist

Yes, it may have picked up last year, but they'll need to sustain that for a few years to make British people less nervous. A quick check on Wikipedia will show that the average for France and Germany over the last six years is something like 1%, while Britain's average is something like 2.5% over the last 10 years, and there has been no recession in Britain in any quarter since 1993.

EDIT: BTW, that sounds a bit nationalistic. I'm not trumpeting Britain's economic record over France and Germany, I'm just saying why some people are nervous of joining the Euro, rationally or otherwise.

[flashleg8]

A main sticking point is the lack of control - how many stories do you hear of Brussels passing daft regulations, or those not suited to Britain? The press are very fond of scaring a generally conservative populace.

The right wing euro-sceptic press maybe. If I hear one more story about EU laws regarding bananas....

True, true

However, sad fact is no Prime Minister will ever put us in without a referendum, and the general populace are sadly not tht bright, and tend to believe the crap spread in such tablods as the Sun, thus making the chance of a favourable result extremely difficult to get.

I do agree with your point here, the general public (by this I mean mainly middle-England) are euro-skeptic and will vote No to any referendum vaguely related to Europe. So I can see why Labour put it off, so they wouldn't loose credibility (same for european constitution vote).

Also Stopper: I take your point about Britain out performing the Euro-zone and while I do think that if we'd have joined, it might have helped to strengthen the Euro, I'm realistic enough to say we would never know. It's probably in our short term interests to stay out just now, but I think we should be looking for entry at least mid to long term - not just these 5(?) economic criteria that Gordon Brown waffles on about (he’s not said much about that in a while now, wonder if its all been forgotten about knows he's a shoe in for PM this year!)

P.S. it's "flash" (Gordon) "leg8" (leggate) is my surname! Flash leg just sounds too kinky and wrong for me!

[Ruben Cassar]

France growth rate for 2006 - 2.0%
Germany growth rate for 2006 - 2.3%

A bit better than 1% mate. However Great Britain had 2.7% growth in 2006.

Source: The Economist

Yes, it may have picked up last year, but they'll need to sustain that for a few years to make British people less nervous. A quick check on Wikipedia will show that the average for France and Germany over the last six years is something like 1%, while Britain's average is something like 2.5% over the last 10 years, and there has been no recession in Britain in any quarter since 1993.

EDIT: BTW, that sounds a bit nationalistic. I'm not trumpeting Britain's economic record over France and Germany, I'm just saying why some people are nervous of joining the Euro, rationally or otherwise.

Oh I totally agree with you on your point. However Ireland has been doing better that the UK, France and Germany put together and I think the EU has got something to do with it. Maybe the UK should look at Ireland for reassurance.

[edmundomcpot]

Well aside from all the economics( Britain doing fine without it), ive always thought half the fun of going abroad was changing your money. I think before everyone adopts the euro everyone needs to adopt one official language because not understanding the person who your giving your money to when its the exact same currency you use at home doesnt sit right.

Wouldnt it just be far easier to drop charges for converting.. ive never seen the point in it really

[flashleg8]

Wouldnt it just be far easier to drop charges for converting.. ive never seen the point in it really

Well, we're getting closer to making paper currency obsolete anyway. I think very shortly most people will just pay by plastic for nearly everything anyway. Converting currency can be done by the banks quite cheaply these days.

[static_ice]

I'm an american and I don't know much about the factual sides of this debate (see my location) but I voted yes and my opinion is that the english upperclass (not all english, just the rich bahstahds) are too conceited to change the money system. They have pride in being too good to conform to convenience. But if England wants to move forward, they should adapt the euro, I mean it would probably be better for international trade.

and america is slowly moving to the metric system, right? (within the next 20 years I think kinda slow I know)

[flashleg8]

my opinion is that the english upperclass (not all english, just the rich bahstahds) are too conceited to change the money system.

I wouldn't necessarily say this - it could be true that the aristocracy and serious upper classes are reactionary and opposed to all forms of change, but if you are talking about rich people, most of these are involved in business in some way and the business community is split in whether the Euro is an opportunity or a drawback for the economy. I wouldn't put this as a class issue at all really, as most of the opposition (in my opinion) is from nationalist anti-European movements which permeate all classes. This isn't a straight forward right vs left issue as even in the right wing unionist conservative party they also represent entrepreneurs and promotion of business so they have splits as well. Labour (left wing) would probably be historically more open to this, but as it’s such a vote loser with the public they refuse to commit. The only (major) blatantly pro European party at the last election was the Liberal Democrats (a historically centralist part, though now creeping to the left of Labour), and I suppose the Scottish Nationalist Party (a left wing independence movement) though neither of these openly proposes to join the Euro.

[Kahless]

I vote yes, would stop the bloodsuckers in banks bleeding me dry with commission charges every time I head to Dublin or the continent. I've still got €40 sitting in my wallet from my last trip away 6 months ago

[Ruben Cassar]

and america is slowly moving to the metric system, right? (within the next 20 years I think kinda slow I know)

Is this true or are you being sarcastic here?

[Spuzzell]

No.

The only reason for joining would be if it brought tangible economic benefits, and as has already been said in this thread, we're doing just fine without the Euro.

I'm not a little Englander, I'm half French and my girlfriend is Dutch, but I honestly can't see how having one economic plan for an entire continent can possibly work.

Individual governments setting economic policy for each country makes far more sense to me, and having to comply with a set of economic standards to keep a currency secure makes running a country efficiently hugely more problematic. In France we have the worlds best health service, which is very expensive. To actually comply with our single currency agreements we'd have to basically shut it down. How does that help anyone? Germany needs to borrow billions to regenerate East Germany, while Spain wants to invest into its economy to protect itself from being bought by foreigners.. these objectives, equally important to each country, are diametrically economically opposed.

Europe is a collection of disparate countries with very different needs, one economic policy is really unworkable.

The clearest argument for not joining the Euro comes from the Europeans themselves.

Residents of Italy and France are particularly disappointed with the common European currency, according to a poll by Harris Interactive published in the Financial Times. 77 per cent of Italian respondents and 76 per cent of French respondents say the introduction of the Euro has had a negative impact in their economies.

Spain is third on the list with 68 per cent, followed by Germany with 55 per cent.

(source: http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14607

So thats the big 4, all thinking that joining the Euro was a mistake. Why would we join them?

[static_ice]

my opinion is that the english upperclass (not all english, just the rich bahstahds) are too conceited to change the money system.

I wouldn't necessarily say this - it could be true that the aristocracy and serious upper classes are reactionary and opposed to all forms of change, but if you are talking about rich people, most of these are involved in business in some way and the business community is split in whether the Euro is an opportunity or a drawback for the economy. I wouldn't put this as a class issue at all really, as most of the opposition (in my opinion) is from nationalist anti-European movements which permeate all classes. This isn't a straight forward right vs left issue as even in the right wing unionist conservative party they also represent entrepreneurs and promotion of business so they have splits as well. Labour (left wing) would probably be historically more open to this, but as it’s such a vote loser with the public they refuse to commit. The only (major) blatantly pro European party at the last election was the Liberal Democrats (a historically centralist part, though now creeping to the left of Labour), and I suppose the Scottish Nationalist Party (a left wing independence movement) though neither of these openly proposes to join the Euro.

which is exactly why I said "in my opinion" because I have no clue on the ups and downs of this debate

[static_ice]

and america is slowly moving to the metric system, right? (within the next 20 years I think kinda slow I know)

Is this true or are you being sarcastic here?

no this is true I try not to be sarcastic on CC unless its obvious (unlike jamie...) america is slowly moving forward but I have no idea how soon it will be I just guessed 20 years. I know the US is going metric slowly because I heard somewhere in the US they took down the "5 miles to __" signs and replaced them with "5 miles to __ 10(?) kilometers to __" signs. They're first trying to integrate the system with our system, but they took those signs down because crash rates went up.

I heard they will try signs again in like 2008