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Africa!: On the Flipside!

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Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby mibi on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:14 pm

So I wanted to do another Africa map. I know there is already and Africa map, but I wanted to make "my africa map"

Here is my draft image.

Image

I know Africa is tilted and looks like australia a bit that ok. It's my artistic vision so that's all that matters. I just wanted to do something to africa that wasn't all cookie-cutter and geographically accurate. If you have any problems with the title, then talk to the compass, because that covers my ass.

Ok, now that the graphics are out of the way, let's discuss the bonuses.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby natty dread on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:37 pm

looks actually kinda fun. i'd play it!

regarding bonuses, just put +6 on all.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Raskholnikov on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:47 pm

I don't mind any tilts or artistic directions you may take to develop "Your Africa" map; but please explain how the territories and game play would be "inherently different" from the existing Africa map, since I think this is a Foundry requirement.... Thanks.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby the.killing.44 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:12 pm

one *whoosh* down, see if the other one gets it.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:18 pm

:lol: :lol:
...and for my next map, doodle Africa, on even more of a slant!
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby RjBeals on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:01 am

Looks like mibi is trying to subtly prove a point...

but on the flip side... I say continue on with this.. looks good so far.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby wcaclimbing on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:02 am

Can you tilt it two more degrees to the left? I think it would look better that way.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:23 pm

LOL funny! Satire is always welcome ;) If we can't laugh at ourselves from time to time it means we're taking ourselves and this game way too seriously... :lol:

Good point well made =D>

That being said, I do enjoy Europe, Europa and Europe 1914... they may well cover essentially the same geographical space, but each has its own unique points and challenges -each tells a different story. And like with any map, the real enjoyment comes from the partners we're playing a game with...

Less "flippantly" though, trying to rigidly enforce a "pensee unique" (uniquely correct worldview) holding that the only possible view of the world that is valid must have Europe in the top centre is historically inaccurate and well.... Euro-centric. It is a fact that different people at different times and places have seen themselves and others from different perspectives, and to claim that these are all either wrong or outdated because they don't correspond to the "scientific facts" misses the point: they represent a cultural view of a society's self-image of their place in space and time, and simply to dismiss it as "factually wrong" totally misses the point.

Of course, no one is claiming that simply by "tilting" a map that is in virtually all other game-play respects identical to another existing one makes for a "new" CC map worth adding to our collection. Each map must tell a differnt story.... or in the Foundry's terms, it must have something inherently differnt in design or gameplay.... I find that to be a reasonably objective definition of "a different story" and I think the experienced Foundry members can make a difference between a "flippant" parody, a virtual duplicate and an "inherently" different map adding something unique to the collection. Argumentum ad absurdums do prove points well, but when applied too widely become themselves quite... absurd ;)
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:27 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:LOL funny! Satire is always welcome ;) If we can't laugh at ourselves from time to time it means we're taking ourselves and this game way too seriously... :lol:

Good point well made =D>

That being said, I do enjoy Europe, Europa and Europe 1914... they may well cover essentially the same geographical space, but each has its own unique points and challenges -each tells a different story. And like with any map, the real enjoyment comes from the partners we're playing a game with...

Less "flippantly" though, trying to rigidly enforce a "pensee unique" (uniquely correct worldview) holding that the only possible view of the world that is valid must have Europe in the top centre is historically inaccurate and well.... Euro-centric. It is a fact that different people at different times and places have seen themselves and others from different perspectives, and to claim that these are all either wrong or outdated because they don't correspond to the "scientific facts" misses the point: they represent a cultural view of a society's self-image of their place in space and time, and simply to dismiss it as "factually wrong" totally misses the point.

Of course, no one is claiming that simply by "tilting" a map that is in virtually all other game-play respects identical to another existing one makes for a "new" CC map worth adding to our collection. Each map must tell a differnt story.... or in the Foundry's terms, it must have something inherently differnt in design or gameplay.... I find that to be a reasonably objective definition of "a different story" and I think the experienced Foundry members can make a difference between a "flippant" parody, a virtual duplicate and an "inherently" different map adding something unique to the collection. Argumentum ad absurdums do prove points well, but when applied too widely become themselves quite... absurd ;)


Actually... the North is up and East is right is a concept that dates back to Ptolemaic Egypt and from what I understand, most maps outside of Europe are North is up and East is right, save for some of the Islamic maps. Most notably the Chinese, who have had the strongest tradition of mapmaking, also depicted North as up and to the right as East. Too often I've heard the erroneous argument that the Europeans put themselves "on top" to assert their "primacy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:35 pm

Actually..... no.... a lot of maps even within Europe were oriented differently.... but this is not worth arguing about. If this field really interests you I'm sure you can check it out before you conplain of "political correctness running rampant".

As you can see below, the Ptolemaic orientation (ie Greek-European) was only one of many, and not even the most prevalent, until at least the early 16th century. It is only with the rise and dominance of Europe, and particularly north-western Europe, from then onwards, that the orientation you mention becomes truly dominant and universally-accepted. To argue that this has nothing to do with emerging global power structures is, at the very least, naive....

Also note that Africa's position in the Mibi Flipside version is actually quite close to this continent's orientation on quite a few of the maps below.... Sometimes satire can actually prove the opposite point.... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagr ... 12th_c.jpg

The medieval T and O maps originate with the description of the world in the Etymologiae of Isidore of Sevilla (died 636). This qualitative and conceptual type of medieval cartography represents only the top-half of a spherical Earth.[4] It was presumably tacitly considered a convenient projection of the inhabited portion of the world known in Roman and Medieval times (that is, the northern temperate half of the globe). The T is the Mediterranean, dividing the three continents, Asia, Europe and Africa, and the O is the surrounding Ocean. Jerusalem was generally represented in the center of the map. Asia was typically the size of the other two continents combined. Because the sun rose in the east, Paradise (the Garden of Eden) was generally depicted as being in Asia, and Asia was situated at the top portion of the map.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... script.png

This map appears in a copy of a classical work on geography, the Latin version by Priscian of the Periegesis, that was among the manuscripts in the Cotton library (MS. Tiberius B.V., fol. 56v), now in the British Library. It is not intended purely as an illustration to that work, for it contains much material gathered from other sources, including some which would have been the most up-to-date available, although it is based on a distant Roman original (similar to the source of another 11th century world map, illustrating an edition of Isidore of Seville)- on which the network of lines appears to indicate the boundaries of imperial provinces. The date of drawing was formerly estimated at about AD 992-994, based on suggested links to the journey of Archbishop Sigeric of Canterbury from Rome[5] but more recent analysis indicates that, although the information was revised about that time, the map was probably drawn between 1025 and 1050.[6] Like the later map by al-Idrisi (see below) this map is clearly outside the largely symbolic early medieval mapping tradition, but equally it is not based on the famous Ptolemaic co-ordinate system. East is at the top, but Jerusalem is not in the centre, and the Garden of Eden is nowhere to be seen. Unusually, all the waterways of Africa, not just the Red Sea, are depicted in red (mountains are green). The depiction of the far East is ambitious, including India and Taprobane (Sri Lanka)- the latter depicted according to the exaggerated classical conception of its size. Unsurprisingly, Britain itself is depicted in some detail. Great Britain, unusually by medieval standards, is shown as one island, albeit with an exaggerated Cornish promontory, and Mona, Ireland and the many Scottish islands are all indicated. The cartographer is slightly confused by Iceland, depicting it both by a version of its classical name 'Thule', north-west of Britain, and as 'Island', logically linked with Scandinavia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... us_map.jpg

Beatus of Liébana (c. 730 - 798) was a Spanish monk and theologian. He corresponded with Alcuin, and took part in the Adoptionist controversy, criticizing the views of Felix of Urgel and Elipandus of Toledo. He is best remembered today as the author of his Commentary on the Apocalypse, published in 776. The Commentary also contained one of the oldest Christian world maps. Although the original manuscript and map has not survived, copies of the map survives in several of the extant manuscripts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... eriana.jpg

The Arab geographer, Muhammad al-Idrisi, incorporated the knowledge of Africa, the Indian Ocean and the Far East gathered by Arab merchants and explorers with the information inherited from the classical geographers to create the most accurate map of the world at the time. It remained the most accurate world map for the next three centuries.

The Tabula Rogeriana was drawn by Al-Idrisi in 1154 for the Norman King Roger II of Sicily, after a stay of eighteen years at his court, where he worked on the commentaries and illustrations of the map. The map, written in Arabic, shows the Eurasian continent in its entirety, but only shows the northern part of the African continent.

On the work of al-Idrisi, S. P. Scott commented:

"The compilation of Edrisi marks an era in the history of science. Not only is its historical information most interesting and valuable, but its descriptions of many parts of the earth are still authoritative. For three centuries geographers copied his maps without alteration. The relative position of the lakes which form the Nile, as delineated in his work, does not differ greatly from that established by Baker and Stanley more than seven hundred years afterwards, and their number is the same. The mechanical genius of the author was not inferior to his erudition. The celestial and terrestrial planisphere of silver which he constructed for his royal patron was nearly six feet in diameter, and weighed four hundred and fifty pounds; upon the one side the zodiac and the constellations, upon the other-divided for convenience into segments-the bodies of land and water, with the respective situations of the various countries, were engraved."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... i_1300.jpg

The Hereford Mappa Mundi is a detailed mappa mundi based on the T and O map style, dating to ca. 1300. The map is signed by one "Richard of Haldingham or Lafford". Drawn on a single sheet of vellum, it measures 158 cm by 133 cm. The writing is in black ink, with additional red and gold, and blue or green for water (with the Red Sea coloured red). The captions demonstrate clearly the multiple functions of these large medieval maps, conveying a mass of information on Biblical subjects and general history, in addition to geography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da-ming-hun-yi-tu.jpg

China developed sophisticated mapping techniques at about the same time as ancient Rome, and never lost them, so by the "medieval" period the country had been mapped with considerable detail and accuracy. When European mapping techniques caught up again at about AD 1300, Islamic contacts were able to supply new maps of the Mediterranean area to China, via the communication routes in the Mongol empire, and these prompted Chinese scholars to create world maps, with China at the centre and Europe, half-way round the globe, depicted very small and horizontally compressed at the edge. Significantly, Africa was also mapped from an Indian Ocean perspective, showing the Cape of Good Hope area, which Europeans would not visit until much later. The first examples, made in the 1320s, are lost, so the earliest survivor is the elaborate, colourful Da Ming Hun Yi Tu, painted on 17 sq. m. of silk in 1389 for the first Ming emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DeVirgaDetail.jpg

The De Virga world map was made by Albertinus de Virga between 1411 and 1415. Albertin de Virga, a Venetian, is also known for a 1409 map of the Mediterranean, also made in Venice. The world map is circular, drawn on a piece of parchment 69.6x44 cm. It consists of the map itself, about 44 cm in diameter, and an extension containing a calendar and two tables.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... ncomap.jpg

Andrea Bianco's atlas of 1436 comprises ten leaves of vellum, measuring 29 X 38 cm., in an 18th century binding. The first leaf contains a description of the Rule of Marteloio for resolving the course, with the "circle and square", two tables and two other diagrams. The next eight leaves contain various navigation charts. The ninth leaf contains a circular world map measuring 25 cm in circumference. And the final leaf contains the Ptolemaic world map on Ptolemy's first projection, with graduation. Some believe Bianco's maps were the first to correctly portray the coast of Florida, as a macro-peninsula is attached to a large island labeled Antillia. Bianco also collaborated with Fra Mauro on the Fra Mauro world map of 1459.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... a_Cosa.jpg

Juan de la Cosa, a Spanish cartographer, explorer and conquistador, born in Santoña in the northern autonomous region of Cantabria, made several maps of which the only survivor is the Mappa Mundi of 1500. It is the first known European cartographic representation of the Americas. It is now in the Museo Naval in Madrid. Reproductions of it are given by Humboldt in his Atlas géographique et physique.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby snufkin on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:45 am

hmm rask..
I thought you said everything on wikipedia was a lie by default? :lol:
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby mibi on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:51 am

Those maps are old, and inaccurate, and ugly. We have come along way since then have developed an consenus on which way is up. But screw that, this map is my artistic vision, and as an artist of the highest order, i shouldn't be held to societies norms and customs, even though my map will be played by the general public, i say f*ck the general public, I am a god damn artist and if I want to turn africa into australia, who is anyone to argue.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Raskholnikov on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:53 am

Those maps are old, and inaccurate, and ugly. We have come along way since then have developed an consenus on which way is up.


LOL Well then, if you truly believe this to be a fact, I see no point in continuing this discussion. Good luck to you.

Btw, were you not the one extrolling the virtues of Ptolemaic maps - roughly 1 to 2 millenia older than the ones I linked on the page? lol W/e. Waste of time. Go take a hike and be happy you know which way is "up"... lol
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Raskholnikov on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:56 am

hmm rask..
I thought you said everything on wikipedia was a lie by default?


I never said that. I said one should not jump up and down and throw mud on others based just on information one derives from there.

Any other snide remarks, Snuf?

Get a life!
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:05 am

I'm not saying there aren't any maps which face a different direction as up, I'm just saying the concept isn't as new as the early modern period, has nothing to do with colonialism or supposed European primacy. Which, in hindsight might not be what you're trying to say, but I've had this argued to me like 9 times in the past month that the Europeans put themselves on top because they thought they were the best.

Yes, I acknowledge there were maps facing other directions and there still are but I'm saying the historical trend, especially with China, seems to be North, up and East, to the right.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:01 pm

I know a number of ancient maps were oriented toward Jerusalem...

But in any case. In all seriousness, I'd like to see more Africa maps.


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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby Raskholnikov on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:24 pm

I don't think we really disagree -it's a question of how we phrase it. The Ptolemaic stye, which was one of the various cartogrpahic representations, fit European needs best from the 1500s on. As the Europeans began to acquire supremacy over the next decades and century and push forward with their maritime "discoveries", their maps became more precise and accepted around the world. So my argument would go that it was a functional need that became refined and generally accepted as the standard as European power and influence grew, and other possible orientations were marginalised and, eventually, disappeared. The implication is that this development was not an inevitability and, had global power relationships evolved differently, to Europe's disadvantage, another verions may well have replaced it as the universally accepted one. It's a question of whether one believes in historical contingency or inevitability, and the relationships one can see between something seemingly ideologically neutral such a cartography and global power relations as they developed over time. I happen to believe in historical contingency and the fact that the development of cartography was determined to a large extent that it was the Europeans, and not the Arabs, Chinese or Japanese, which eventually came to dominate the globe and establish cartographic standards for basically three centuries. All I was trying to do with the 150 Nach Hijrah map was to re-present a contingent view of history - what the larger Mediterranean world looked like to the Arabic/muslim civilisations and even some of the christian ones just before the first millennium. I hope we can all agree to this and move forward in trying to actually improve both the grpahics and gameplay until everyone is at least moderately happy with most of its aspects.

Thanks again for your thoughtful contribution.
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:26 pm

Afaik, in the middle ages, east was commonly up in most maps. However this was at a time when maps were not accurate representations of the land shapes...
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby snufkin on Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:54 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:
hmm rask..
I thought you said everything on wikipedia was a lie by default?


I never said that. I said one should not jump up and down and throw mud on others based just on information one derives from there.


Come on kid, chill out a bit.. I was trying to help you fix errors before you would reach a stage where it would be much more complicated to correct them (at least for the one doing the graphics).
I may be blunt at times but that doesn´t mean I´m wrong.

Get a life!


I have a nice life thank you! :D
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Re: Africa!: On the Flipside!

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:21 am

One of the first maps (that has been preserved to this day) to have north up was the Imago Mundi, from year 1483. Before all maps had east up and north on the left.
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