Post here if you don't buy into the Jesus Myth.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith?

I am not determined to disprove it, I am determined to weigh the intellectual, moral, and historical validity of it.

I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

No, I don't. If you want to know how I think the ideal person should live, read this and watch this.

[cowshrptrn]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

so are aesop's fables, but you don't see people using them to justify that dinosaurs didn't exist millions of years ago, or using them to say that the earth is only 6000 years old.

Jesus Christ probably existed, either as a leader of a cult (which then became Christianity) or as a representation of several leaders (much like King Arthur)

[heavycola]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

Absolutely not. The bible advocates filicide, incest, revenge, misogyny, slavery, slaughter and rape. Not how anyone should live their lives IMHO. We don't need an old book to tell us how to live.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Is there no one else who can answer my questions? Is there a concession to my points that zero objective evidence of Jesus called "Christ" existed?

[jay_a2j]

Is there no one else who can answer my questions? Is there a concession to my points that zero objective evidence of Jesus called "Christ" existed?

Not that it will make a shred of difference to one so anti-Jesus. Here is a link... http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

[Guiscard]

Is there no one else who can answer my questions? Is there a concession to my points that zero objective evidence of Jesus called "Christ" existed?

Not that it will make a shred of difference to one so anti-Jesus. Here is a link... http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

All that shows is that Christians existed as a group, not Christ. I'm afraid there's no solid prime source which confirms the existence of a single man named Jesus.

That link is pretty biased anyway... Jesse is pretty much right about this one I'm afraid guys. I think at some point he mentioned he was a history major or something? I study history too, and I can tell you we're not gonna make up blatant lies or spin things too much. Its easy enough to bash Christianity without disproving that the man existed. If you believe in God then it doesn't matter, cause you're gonna believe anyway.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Is there no one else who can answer my questions? Is there a concession to my points that zero objective evidence of Jesus called "Christ" existed?

Not that it will make a shred of difference to one so anti-Jesus. Here is a link... http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

I am not anti-Jesus. I am anti-historical revision.

[happysadfun]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

Absolutely not. The bible advocates filicide, incest, revenge, misogyny, slavery, slaughter and rape. Not how anyone should live their lives IMHO. We don't need an old book to tell us how to live.

And, Mr. Smarta*s, where does the Bible say these things??? Please give me verses.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

Absolutely not. The bible advocates filicide, incest, revenge, misogyny, slavery, slaughter and rape. Not how anyone should live their lives IMHO. We don't need an old book to tell us how to live.

And, Mr. Smarta*s, where does the Bible say these things??? Please give me verses.

Tons of verses here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

Absolutely not. The bible advocates filicide, incest, revenge, misogyny, slavery, slaughter and rape. Not how anyone should live their lives IMHO. We don't need an old book to tell us how to live.

And, Mr. Smarta*s, where does the Bible say these things??? Please give me verses.

I'd also like to point out you dodged the goal of this thread; is there any real proof for the existence of Christ?

This is not about the moral, psychological, and social merits (or in the strong case of the Abrahamic faiths, a lack thereof) of the Abrahamic faiths, but instead the validity of saying that Christ clearly existed as a historical person.

[flashleg8]

Tons of verses here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Great site! Thanks for the link I've never seen it before!
Ammunition in my debating campaign with the Jehovah Witnesses that come to me every fortnight!

[Ham]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

Absolutely not. The bible advocates filicide, incest, revenge, misogyny, slavery, slaughter and rape. Not how anyone should live their lives IMHO. We don't need an old book to tell us how to live.

What ? It talks about loving your enemies and if they slap one of your cheeks turn your other to them for them to slap. And it doesnt advocate rape at all. It doesnt say much anything about slavery excpet the fact that it was a part of life back then. And as for the rest please give us some scripture where it says these things.

[Colaalone]

SLAVERY

[vtmarik]

What ? It talks about loving your enemies and if they slap one of your cheeks turn your other to them for them to slap. And it doesnt advocate rape at all. It doesnt say much anything about slavery excpet the fact that it was a part of life back then. And as for the rest please give us some scripture where it says these things.

And the Satanic Bible says that if someone slaps you on your cheek that you should smash them on theirs.

What's more realistic, letting someone walk on you and assault you, or defending yourself and chasing them off?

Oh and there's also Numbers 31:15-19 where Moses tells the soldiers that they can do what they want with all of the virgin girls of the town:
"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He doesn't say to get their consent first, just to use them whether they want to or not. That's advocating rape, no matter how you spin it.

And then there's the cannibalism.

[Jehan]

I'm just going to point out that you are quoting from the old testament, and i know you've heard this like millions of times before but the new testament represents the new covenant instituted by Christ with man so i would like to see some verses form the new testament to back your claims, otherwise you basically only have evidence for those claims existing in Judaism. And Guiscard is right, no Christian will be swayed by your arguments, and no atheist who seeks objective evidence will find it. If you discount faith as evidence then you wont find evidence at all, so in answer to your question, you have no evidence Jesus existed and was the Christ, but i do.

[Jehan]

sorry for the double post but i also dont think the thread should be locked, although it wont really accomplish anything save to upset people, not sure why it does though.

[vtmarik]

I'm just going to point out that you are quoting from the old testament, and i know you've heard this like millions of times before but the new testament represents the new covenant instituted by Christ with man so i would like to see some verses form the new testament to back your claims, otherwise you basically only have evidence for those claims existing in Judaism. And Guiscard is right, no Christian will be swayed by your arguments, and no atheist who seeks objective evidence will find it. If you discount faith as evidence then you wont find evidence at all, so in answer to your question, you have no evidence Jesus existed and was the Christ, but i do.

Yes, but without the Old Testament there would be no New Testament or any Christians. Also, Jesus said very many times to follow the law, by which he meant the laws of the OT.

And faith isn't evidence, if it was we wouldn't call it faith. We'd call it evidence. A lot of people have faith that the earth is flat. There's no proof for that either.

[heavycola]

why are you so determined to disprove and discredit the Christian faith? I mean, even if Jesus might not have existed, the Bible is an excellent guideline on how an ideal person should live their lives. You have to give it THAT, don't you?

Absolutely not. The bible advocates filicide, incest, revenge, misogyny, slavery, slaughter and rape. Not how anyone should live their lives IMHO. We don't need an old book to tell us how to live.

And, Mr. Smarta*s, where does the Bible say these things??? Please give me verses.

Filicide: God asks Abraham to kill his own son, and then he, er, has his own son killed
Incest: Cain and Abel had to have sex with their own sisters, according to Jay.
Misogyny: My favourite, which also covers rape, is when Lot offers his own daughters to the men who want to shag his angelic guests. Charming!
Slavery: I believe this has been linked elsewhere in this thread
Slaughter: First example that comes to mind is the Midianites, but I know there are more

None of these appeal to me as moral acts, although they appear to have done so to god.

Slight threadjack and apols for doing so.
I don't see the actual existence of jesus as THAT important - i am quite happy to believe that he did, and ended up becoming the focus of a ludicrous mythology. His existence or otherwise has no bearing on modern xian belief - god's doesn't, after all...

[Backglass]

I'm just going to point out that you are quoting from the old testament, and i know you've heard this like millions of times before but the new testament represents the new covenant instituted by Christ with man so i would like to see some verses form the new testament to back your claims, otherwise you basically only have evidence for those claims existing in Judaism.

OK! So the old testament is all bunk then? Or just the parts you don't like?

If you discount faith as evidence then you wont find evidence at all, so in answer to your question, you have no evidence Jesus existed and was the Christ, but i do.

Ya just gotta believe!!! Click your heels together three times and say "I wish there were gods! I wish there were gods!"

[MR. Nate]

The OT is valid, but not everthing people do is in obediance to God. God set up specific standards, and a lot of the people in the OT disobeyed them.

Filicide: God asks Abraham to kill his own son, and then he, er, has his own son killed
Incest: Cain and Abel had to have sex with their own sisters, according to Jay.
Misogyny: My favourite, which also covers rape, is when Lot offers his own daughters to the men who want to shag his angelic guests. Charming!
Slavery: I believe this has been linked elsewhere in this thread
Slaughter: First example that comes to mind is the Midianites, but I know there are more

Filicide: Abraham didn't kill his son, Christ's death was his decision
Incest: It's there, but it would take a long, and culturally sensative discussion to explain, so I'll wait for a specific request.
Misogyny: Never condoned, only there as a record of what happened.
Slavery: Never condoned, legel for unrepayable debts, but only for 7 years.
Slaughter: Only for those who rejected God's soverignty, and only under the old covenant.

I disagree with you heavycola, when you say Christs existence has no bearing on Christianity. He was crucified for claiming to be equal with God. That seems to make his existence force a choice.

[heavycola]

The OT is valid, but not everthing people do is in obediance to God. God set up specific standards, and a lot of the people in the OT disobeyed them.

Filicide: God asks Abraham to kill his own son, and then he, er, has his own son killed
Incest: Cain and Abel had to have sex with their own sisters, according to Jay.
Misogyny: My favourite, which also covers rape, is when Lot offers his own daughters to the men who want to shag his angelic guests. Charming!
Slavery: I believe this has been linked elsewhere in this thread
Slaughter: First example that comes to mind is the Midianites, but I know there are more

Filicide: Abraham didn't kill his son, Christ's death was his decision
Incest: It's there, but it would take a long, and culturally sensative discussion to explain, so I'll wait for a specific request.
Misogyny: Never condoned, only there as a record of what happened.
Slavery: Never condoned, legel for unrepayable debts, but only for 7 years.
Slaughter: Only for those who rejected God's soverignty, and only under the old covenant.

I disagree with you heavycola, when you say Christs existence has no bearing on Christianity. He was crucified for claiming to be equal with God. That seems to make his existence force a choice.

Hi Nate

I didn't make myself very clear about christ's existence or not - I meant that it can't be proved and is almost beside the point anyway. If you believe in god, the crucifixion, all of it, then jesus' existence is never going to be in question no matter what the evidence says, whether he did or not. Like evolution - the science, the evidence don't matter at all to a creationist. Dogma conquers all.
For the record I do believe jesus existed and was a remarkable guy. BUt that's all, obviously

[Jehan]

I'm just going to point out that you are quoting from the old testament, and i know you've heard this like millions of times before but the new testament represents the new covenant instituted by Christ with man so i would like to see some verses form the new testament to back your claims, otherwise you basically only have evidence for those claims existing in Judaism. And Guiscard is right, no Christian will be swayed by your arguments, and no atheist who seeks objective evidence will find it. If you discount faith as evidence then you wont find evidence at all, so in answer to your question, you have no evidence Jesus existed and was the Christ, but i do.

Yes, but without the Old Testament there would be no New Testament or any Christians. Also, Jesus said very many times to follow the law, by which he meant the laws of the OT.

And faith isn't evidence, if it was we wouldn't call it faith. We'd call it evidence. A lot of people have faith that the earth is flat. There's no proof for that either.

My faith is evidence to me, i'm not the believing type, i'm usually quite skeptical. the fact that ive asked myself every question you guys have posed in this thread and still believe tells me that there is something more profound than a simple story or made up religion. faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

and about the law "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

I'm just going to point out that you are quoting from the old testament, and i know you've heard this like millions of times before but the new testament represents the new covenant instituted by Christ with man so i would like to see some verses form the new testament to back your claims, otherwise you basically only have evidence for those claims existing in Judaism. And Guiscard is right, no Christian will be swayed by your arguments, and no atheist who seeks objective evidence will find it. If you discount faith as evidence then you wont find evidence at all, so in answer to your question, you have no evidence Jesus existed and was the Christ, but i do.

Yes, but without the Old Testament there would be no New Testament or any Christians. Also, Jesus said very many times to follow the law, by which he meant the laws of the OT.

And faith isn't evidence, if it was we wouldn't call it faith. We'd call it evidence. A lot of people have faith that the earth is flat. There's no proof for that either.

My faith is evidence to me, i'm not the believing type, i'm usually quite skeptical. the fact that ive asked myself every question you guys have posed in this thread and still believe tells me that there is something more profound than a simple story or made up religion.

It isn't of you asking yourself our questions, it's if you have answered.

faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

Faith is not evidence. Faith is hope confused for knowledge.

[Backglass]

faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

"Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith." - Unknown

[MR. Nate]

Backglass, I'll tentativly accept your definition of faith, even though I think it's wrong. I'm uneasy with it, because I just realized how limited my faith is. For instance, I don't have faith that Jesus existed, because it's pretty clear to me that he did. There is a significant amount of evidence that he did, so it's not at all something my intellect wants to reject. The same goes for the existence of God, despite your, and others, claims to the contrary. That the Bible is the word of God stops being a matter of faith, because it's changed my life in ways that only God could. From that intellectual decision, a lot of other things become logical, which means I have almost no faith at all.

I think you're underestimating the ability of the will to conquer the intellect. We've all seen it time and again in those we disagree with, the ability to absolutly ignore the point that blows up their entire argument. I'm not naming names, and I'll hope no one else does, in the name of civility.

heavycola: Hi! Your right to a certain degree, if you accept the Bible, you never question Christ. I was approaching it from the other side. If you don't accept Christ, then there is a possibility that an acceptance of the existence of Christ may lead you to question his God claims, which obviously has a HUGE bearing on Christianity.